Perhaps if the Constitution and the government it had formed hadn't become exactly what it was never supposed to become I might have more faith and praise for the system. As it is, it is a noble but long failed experiment.Originally Posted by johnwk
Yep. The only way something like the government works is if the majority of citizens are anarchists, discarding the government as soon as even a shadow of betrayal appeared. But people aren't.
ya, that is what I thought you meant.
we humans. have a long history of trying to organize ourselves socially.
that is after all. what the subject matter pertains to.
this is NOT a new subject. if, as you suggest. we first tear it down, and see what sprouts up...
this has been tried before. repeatedly in fact. over and over again for millennia.
our founders did try something new. (after they tore down the old)
they recognized the "government" or "statism" or whatever you want to call it.
WAS the problem.
what they attempted to do, (for the first time in history) was to restrain Government. yay!..
with a system of checks and balances, incorporated in a republic.
they chose an abstract. to "federate" the existing "states".
under a constitution of ENUMERATED powers.
I am baffled as to why. you of all people. cannot see your way to getting behind this effort.
"I want a Government SO small. that you can barely see it" Rand Paul.
(this is CLEARLY a minarchist position)
I tasted a bit of Liberty in my time. so have you.
you are a leader on this forum. whether you like it, wanted it. or not.
you and others like you, set the pace.
I will NOT suffer if we burn down the house. or the Mission.
https://youtu.be/u06DpcFXc4U
https://youtu.be/EdEQkRq_xrw
trust me.
hell, I won't even have too.
my skill-set will be in very high demand under those circumstances.
I am here to assuage my conscious friend.
the dumbfucks should have paid attention. and prepared.
right?
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein
"for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.
Attempting to centralize? Nothing good comes from that, thus dooming the enterprise from inception. It wasn't exactly shattering. The Magna Carta was not about the common man. So too the Constitution.
ya, that is what I thought you meant.
we humans. have a long history of trying to organize ourselves socially.
that is after all. what the subject matter pertains to.
this is NOT a new subject. if, as you suggest. we first tear it down, and see what sprouts up...
this has been tried before. repeatedly in fact. over and over again for millennia.
our founders did try something new. (after they tore down the old)
they recognized the "government" or "statism" or whatever you want to call it.
WAS the problem.
what they attempted to do, (for the first time in history) was to restrain Government. yay!..
with a system of checks and balances, incorporated in a republic.
they chose an abstract. to "federate" the existing "states".
under a constitution of ENUMERATED powers.
I am baffled as to why. you of all people. cannot see your way to getting behind this effort.
"I want a Government SO small. that you can barely see it" Rand Paul.
(this is CLEARLY a minarchist position)
I tasted a bit of Liberty in my time. so have you.
you are a leader on this forum. whether you like it, wanted it. or not.
you and others like you, set the pace.
I will NOT suffer if we burn down the house. or the Mission.
https://youtu.be/u06DpcFXc4U
https://youtu.be/EdEQkRq_xrw
trust me.
hell, I won't even have too.
my skill-set will be in very high demand under those circumstances.
I am here to assuage my conscious friend.
the dumbfucks should have paid attention. and prepared.
right?
brilliant supposition!
therefore. you are a MinArchist? right?
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein
"for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.
I cannot see a way to do fat-trimming or substantial power reduction of what currently exists, the tentacles are too numerous and extend too deeply into this corrupted idea of a constitutional republic...
ya, that is what I thought you meant.
we humans. have a long history of trying to organize ourselves socially.
that is after all. what the subject matter pertains to.
this is NOT a new subject. if, as you suggest. we first tear it down, and see what sprouts up...
this has been tried before. repeatedly in fact. over and over again for millennia.
our founders did try something new. (after they tore down the old)
they recognized the "government" or "statism" or whatever you want to call it.
WAS the problem.
what they attempted to do, (for the first time in history) was to restrain Government. yay!..
with a system of checks and balances, incorporated in a republic.
they chose an abstract. to "federate" the existing "states".
under a constitution of ENUMERATED powers.
I am baffled as to why. you of all people. cannot see your way to getting behind this effort.
"I want a Government SO small. that you can barely see it" Rand Paul.
(this is CLEARLY a minarchist position)
I tasted a bit of Liberty in my time. so have you.
you are a leader on this forum. whether you like it, wanted it. or not.
you and others like you, set the pace.
I will NOT suffer if we burn down the house. or the Mission.
https://youtu.be/u06DpcFXc4U
https://youtu.be/EdEQkRq_xrw
trust me.
hell, I won't even have too.
my skill-set will be in very high demand under those circumstances.
I am here to assuage my conscious friend.
the dumbfucks should have paid attention. and prepared.
right?
I'm not saying the idea is bad or wrong at it's core just that this rendition we've permitted is.
Like you I'm but one man, one who'll be fine if the whole damn thing comes tumbling down tomorrow, however............
I don't know anything past "This isn't working."............Once this mutation of limited government and all of its proponents are out of the picture it'll be time to digest all the varying ideas on how to proceed. I'm not for or against the constitution as it was written, I am against how it's been interpreted and I'm certainly against the men who have used the interpretations to profit politically and imprison others.
Talking about how it was or how it should be all seem like ways to avoid how it is...
"centralize" what? "states"?
name another example.
you just compared the Magna Carta. to our own Republic...
was that an oblique compliment?
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein
"for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.
Begat, begat, begat.
AND HERE WE ARE.
Another example? History.
Begatting again? Time will tell.
Odds on favorite.
Last edited by phill4paul; 12-01-2015 at 09:41 PM.
got it!!
$#@!'em, let them eat fishheads!. ha!
from what I recall..
both the DP and RPF's were founded to disseminate knowledge and truth.
"knowledge is power, action is Love" right?
I will cease and desist my efforts here.
no, I will never give up on them entirely. I can't do that.
but, like yourself. I CAN read the writing on the wall.
this thread was hijacked beyond belief.
reason and logic, much less history or the founding fathers will not be tolerated here.
and no. I have no $#@!ing idea who JWK is.
my friendship with Bryan will remain intact.
and no, I will not go all Beatles, Donovan or grateful dead on you..
heh,
peace bro.
https://youtu.be/PniNdDr-iJo
Live long and prosper.
(btw. both Thor and specialtyblend warned me. this place is a "timesuck".)
Last edited by HVACTech; 12-01-2015 at 10:24 PM.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein
"for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.
my bad. I thought you were attempting to write concisely.
name ANY other attempt to limit government. like the founders.
dumb$#@!.
may I PLEASE have a neg rep sir?
pretty please? with sugar on top?
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein
"for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.
I don't grant pleasures. Nor privileges.my bad. I thought you were attempting to write concisely.
name ANY other attempt to limit government. like the founders.
dumb$#@!.
may I PLEASE have a neg rep sir?
pretty please? with sugar on top?
Not lordly in that respect.
Any attempt at limiting government
was inscribed with blood.
Government does not limit government.
Dumbass.
no $#@! dude! what is needed is bare ass nekkid ANARCHY!!I don't grant pleasures. Nor privileges.
Not lordly in that respect.
Any attempt at limiting government
was inscribed with blood.
Government does not limit government.
Dumbass.
Tod said the very same thing! imagine that! burn it down! kill them all! yee ha!
ride em cowboy!
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein
"for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.
Let's do this! You first.no $#@! dude! what is needed is bare ass nekkid ANARCHY!!
Tod said the very same thing! imagine that! burn it down! kill them all! yee ha!
ride em cowboy!
I look forward to sitting down in the hereafter.
Creating a government from the ashes,
We can do it.
On what do we build the pillar(ory)?
No that's not what I said..no $#@! dude! what is needed is bare ass nekkid ANARCHY!!
Tod said the very same thing! imagine that! burn it down! kill them all! yee ha!
ride em cowboy!
Re-read what I typed, I said it was beyond me.
There are untold number of men suited to such endeavors like studying history and philosophy with an learned eye toward what might or could be.
For me though it's much simpler to look back over my lifetime and draw conclusions from what has happened on my watch and then apply those conclusions to where I see things now.
I don't want to "kill them all! yee ha! " but I'd certainly like to stop the destruction and decline being caused by too much government. In the time I've been sucking air I've watched what my father considered an intolerably oppressive government grow in both size and scope under promises of peace and prosperity to this leviathan that is supporting more than half the people within its borders..
I'm well and truly scared for my kid....
The defect is not found in the Constitution. It is found in a failure to enforce it.
JWK
"The public welfare demands that constitutional cases must be decided according to the terms of the Constitution itself, and not according to judges' views of fairness, reasonableness, or justice." -- Justice Hugo L. Black ( U.S. Supreme Court Justice, 1886 - 1971) Source: Lecture, Columbia University, 1968
Why would you choose to assume that "We The People" EVER supported the CONstitution?
http://freedom-school.com/the-consti...oston-1870.pdf
Last edited by Ronin Truth; 12-02-2015 at 09:13 AM.
I'm not qualified to speak about the "intent" of men who lived a couple centuries ago, last time I read the Anti-Federalist Papers or any historical biographies was somewhere in the fog of the 70's and 80's.got it!!
$#@!'em, let them eat fishheads!. ha!
from what I recall..
both the DP and RPF's were founded to disseminate knowledge and truth.
"knowledge is power, action is Love" right?
I will cease and desist my efforts here.
no, I will never give up on them entirely. I can't do that.
but, like yourself. I CAN read the writing on the wall.
this thread was hijacked beyond belief.
reason and logic, much less history or the founding fathers will not be tolerated here.
and no. I have no $#@!ing idea who JWK is.
my friendship with Bryan will remain intact.
and no, I will not go all Beatles, Donovan or grateful dead on you..
heh,
peace bro.
https://youtu.be/PniNdDr-iJo
Live long and prosper.
(btw. both Thor and specialtyblend warned me. this place is a "timesuck".)
Lives and thought processes were somewhat different then but obviously human nature wasn't.
Without overstepping my very limited knowledge of the times or the people involved in founding this country I'm comfortable stating that to a man they'd be ashamed at what it's become.
Whether or not the country can be brought into line with the visions expressed by those guys so long ago remains to be seen but there's one thing I'm certain of, and that's that the people entrenched in government today can have no part in that quest, their actions speak quite loudly.
The Illegality, Immorality, and Violence of All Political Action
Actually, it is both. The Constitution is a weak document. VERY weak in its semantic construction, which is why rotten men have been so successful at perverting those semantics. In their presumed lust for simplicity and elegance, the authors waltzed right into the land of the simplistic. The Constitution lacks the complexity that brings about semantic completeness, clarity, correctness. Were it otherwise, things would have been far different in a land peopled by humans unafraid of hard work and the burdens of competent thought. Marbury v. Madison would have been a virtually impossible outcome, as would have been virtually all other usurpations.
Now, here we may be said to have a chicken-or-egg situation that asks "which came first, lazy stupid people who allowed the Constitution to be perverted, or a weak Constitution that lead to conditions that subsequently lead to lazy, stupid people?" I would say the latter, but only in a small chip, leading to perhaps some questions and even revolt. Consider the whiskey rebellion - the people of the new land of America said "screw you" to the usurpation that the regulation of alcoholic spirits represented. It was brutally put down. We have lived under the boot of the Tyrant since the first days of our national existence.
It takes naught but time for the chafing to develop the callous. And this is how it went in America. Small irritations. People get pissed, but not enough to risk death, usually. Death has always been the risk because we have always been run by vicious, brutal monsters who spared no bullet in Theire acts of repression, when deemed necessary. How about the slaughter of our veterans after WW I when the government screwed them into the ground regarding benefits earned in their service?
Make no mistake about it - America has been a tyranny since day 1 mostly because tyrants are ballsy bastards, but also in large part because the gross and I daresay grotesque shortcomings of the Constitution gave great lend to the semantic chicanery of such men. Virtually all of the misdeeds of such men have been justified by their "interpretation" of the Constitution. We have seen this in all three branches, the structure of which is self-proven as a dangerously sad failure.
Beyond a point a government holds sufficient statistical power that it no longer need fear the people, so long as it treads with sufficient care not to anger them beyond a given proportion or a threshold of resolve. Theye have been very diligent in this, so far as I can see. The nation is large enough that localized outrages are no longer sufficient to ignite the passions of men such that rebellion becomes a widely spread result.
In my experience, one cannot write a document sufficient to the task of protecting a population from devils. It is, after all, just a document. But words are important and potentially powerful in any event and such documents can be crafted to make the work of evil men all the more difficult. If we are going to have such documents, the utilities of which are eminently arguable, they should at least be well crafted so that based on a set of given premises, people at the INDIVIDUAL LEVEL hold the wherewithal to squelch the sorts of behavior that have brought our generations to the currently sad pass to which we find ourselves.
If every cop who threatened to abuse the rights of a man were shot dead, "government" having no recourse in the matter for the word-driven constitutional clarity of that man's right to defend against all unjust acts against him, police would come to toe a better reasoned line. Were all governmental office holders to stand in peril of their very lives, their estates forfeit to those they harmed and leaving their own families destitute in the wake of their perfidies, methinks corruption would take a great turn downward.
Government of the people, for the people, and BY the people should be just that - by them, meaning that a sufficient plurality (ideally 100%) must be fully determined to destroy that which threatens even strangers to their eyes. When catastrophic injury, death, maiming, and loss of all material assets to the doom of their families looms large and immediate for those who would otherwise seek to dispense with respect for their neighbors, the nation suddenly finds itself in a very different environment. It is one where people do as they please, when they please, so long as they bring no violation upon the rights of others. It is the Golden Rule made real in every act of every nominally sane, rational, and decent man. Without the threat of catastrophic force, there is no basis for men to treat each other with civility as a general rule. Under such conditions, proper treatment of others becomes a matter of mere whim, to be dispensed with as one's mood may direct at a given moment.
Men are not by nature saints. They are prone to the most irrational and unsupportable impulses imaginable. When acted upon, those impulses often lead to great harms to those finding themselves the targets of such men. Therefore, force brutish is the basis upon which practically applied principles of proper human relations rests, for at the bottom of all things it is the one truth which all men understand and respect.
"The Constitution is the act of the people,
It is? How does he reason?
Which is now effectively lost to the nation.speaking in their original character,
Sticky wicket term alert. What exactly, mewonders, did Mr. Kent mean by this?and defining the permanent conditions of the social alliance;
and there can be no doubt on the point with us, that every act of the legislative power contrary to the true intent and meaning of the Constitution, is absolutely null and void.___ Chancellor James Kent, in his Commentaries on American Law (1858)
Fine and well. Easy to say. I say $#@! like this all the time... and to what end? My sentiments, expressed or otherwise, have changed nothing. The nation is circling the drain as I type these words. The only likely effect anything I have ever written here will be to have men in black Suburbans show up at my door. They will not be my friends nor will they likely be friendly. More likely still, I will simply be ignored by the universe, meaning everything to which I have put the effort of thought was naught but vapors.
Until people are willing to act in the face of peril to their very next breaths, nothing here will change. There is no amount of political activism that is going to change a hair nor whit. Theye are on an agenda - whether the product of an appalling conspiracy or simply the inescapable conclusion of men acting as men in the context of their quest for ever more political power - and it will not be greatly altered, save through material action of the most non-equivocating nature.
Last edited by osan; 12-02-2015 at 12:30 PM.
freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.
It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.
Our words make us the ghosts that we are.
Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.
And what, pray tell, is your point?
freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.
It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.
Our words make us the ghosts that we are.
Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.
I must reject your premise. I don't think that anyone is expecting the ostensible boobus Americanus to accept anything of the sort. Being constitutionally incapable or otherwise unwilling to do so, it would be more than a bit contradictory. Not all Americans are idiots or acting as such. The issue that remains to be proven is whether there are enough intelligent and responsible people remaining who would actually go out and fight the evil that consumes us daily in dribs and drabs.
Once again, you premise is incorrect. I cannot think of anyone here that is operating on this basis. Boobus is likely to be nothing more than an object in the way, which is problem enough in itself, given its great plurality and the immense stupidities to which it subscribes.It's a self-perpetuating cycle- call someone Boobus and they will think you are an $#@! and disregard what you have to say, then you can say we're all $#@!ed because you can't get through to the Boobus.
For me, the bigger concern regarding this mass of non-adept humanity would be what to do with them in the event a real insurrection broke out and resolved in favor of human liberty (yes, I know it is a wild fantasy). I suppose you simply leave them to their devices. Those capable and willing to toe reality's line may survive and the rest return to dust. I'm OK with that.
The American Meaner is a problem. At best he poses an obstacle to the tactics of free men in their fight to remain that way. At worst, he becomes an active ally of the Tyrant who, holding all the cards at the outset of conflict, will promise and provide all manner of free stuff, including status and power, to the proletariat that they become his steadfast instruments by which free men may once and for all be eradicated from the earth.
But in no case does the free man regard boobus as an entity toward which he should point his reason in the effort to get the lesser man to think. As you wrote, that makes no sense whatsoever.
Last edited by osan; 12-02-2015 at 10:20 AM.
freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.
It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.
Our words make us the ghosts that we are.
Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.
Stupid lives DON'T matter.
I'm a voluntaryist. I don't care how minimal your state is, if it is still maintained by violence and force then it is wrong.
Very much so. Order without force, government without violence. To paraphrase Jefferson, I'd rather face the problems of having too much liberty than the problems of not having enough of it. One mad man with a gun can kill 100 people. One government can kill a million. I know which one I'd rather have.
I would amend this slightly: Stoopid lives DON'T matter.
Stoopid = the behavior of one who, being organically intact, is outwardly indistinguishable from that of one who is organically stupid.
Stupid people cannot help being what they are. Stoopid people, OTOH, have no excuse for their behaviors and opinions. As far as I am concerned, the lives of the latter mean no whit to me. The former... an argument can be made for sparing them. They are, after all, few in number and not to blame. The latter, however, have earned my indifference.
freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.
It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.
Our words make us the ghosts that we are.
Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.
I believe you'll eventually come around to the actual lack of very much of a difference.
The ignorant, OTOH, can be corrected and treated with proper information.
That you have to enforce it is the defect.
Why all the drama?
It is what it is:
1 - People do not want freedom and liberty.
2 - Those few of us that do, are too small in number and too scared to do what is needed to drag Boobus along kicking and screaming.
3 - So, here we sit.
No need to storm off in a huff, the company is good and we got front row seats.
Like John Jacob Astor on the Titanic, get the women and children off and then have a cigar and a drink.
got it!!
$#@!'em, let them eat fishheads!. ha!
from what I recall..
both the DP and RPF's were founded to disseminate knowledge and truth.
"knowledge is power, action is Love" right?
I will cease and desist my efforts here.
no, I will never give up on them entirely. I can't do that.
but, like yourself. I CAN read the writing on the wall.
this thread was hijacked beyond belief.
reason and logic, much less history or the founding fathers will not be tolerated here.
and no. I have no $#@!ing idea who JWK is.
my friendship with Bryan will remain intact.
and no, I will not go all Beatles, Donovan or grateful dead on you..
heh,
peace bro.
https://youtu.be/PniNdDr-iJo
Live long and prosper.
(btw. both Thor and specialtyblend warned me. this place is a "timesuck".)
Exactly.
Grin and bear it.
federalism was destroyed by
1- War of Northern Aggression
2- Fourteenth Amendment - "enacted" while the Southern States were under martial $#@!ing law
3- Seventeenth Amendment
.
.
.DON'T TAX ME BRO!!!
.
.
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)
"The man who knows what freedom is, will find a way to be free."
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