Why Can’t We Talk About Islam Honestly?

[TER]

Jihad in the Qu'ran is PERSONAL. It means to wage war on one's own faults and sins; it is NOT about war with others. Because some interpret it that way, does not make it so.

BTW- as far as "cross-dressing"- everyone wors skirts in those days- hate to tell you so.

Skirts had nothing to do with it.

You forgot the pedophile part, interestingly.

As for personal jihad, yes, there is that. There is also genocide, beheading the infidel and subjugating other religions to second class status with a special tax. Would you like to defend that as well?

[Cabal]

Benefits of being a non-believer

[Yieu]

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[Yieu]

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[Sola_Fide]

The way that I worship may be different, but that does not mean I do not worship the same God.

I did not mean that the Holy Spirit is a concept. I was saying that the concept of the Holy Spirit is the same. Not that the Holy Spirit is a concept.

There is more than one branch of Hinduism. The branch I follow is monotheistic. My understanding is that there is only one God, and I see no reason to not believe that I worship the same God as Christians. As a side note, I was born into a Christian family and was a Christian. In Hinduism there are demi-gods, but they are not God, they are more like angels. Some Hindus worship demi-gods, but that is recommended against by God in the Bhagavad Gita 9.23 "Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kuntī, but they do so in a wrong way."

Yieu, it's not even close. Read the first 5 chapters of the book of Romans. That is what Christian soteriology is. There is no way you can affirm substitutionary atonement while believing in Hinduism. It's a different religion. TER doesn't even believe in subsitutionary atonement and he says he's a Christian.

[TER]

Alright then. I think the reason there is backlash against people criticizing Islam is because there are some Christians who are intolerant (hateful) of others' faiths.

I felt that what I said was related because it was about that. Not all Christians are like that. Some can admit that I worship the same God as them, and others reject in order to feel superior.

I thought you argued that Christians must be intolerant of other faiths, but Search isn't returning results. (By the way, I worship the same God as you.)

I don't reject your claim to worship the same God in order to feel superior. I reject it because it is not the faith of God handed down by Christ's beloved Apostles and preserved within the Church the Lord has established.

[Yieu]

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[Yieu]

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[Yieu]

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[fisharmor]

Let's stick to the OP...

debating religious philosophies like Hinduism is cool and all.... do it via chat or PM... This is already spiraling into "I'm more Christian than you and you're all going to hell" type of thread....

I actually am trying to have a conversation about Islam. The point to be made here is that they are not all the same god. That's the claim on the table that I think needs to be discussed. It doesn't really matter what great religious philosophers like George W Bush have to say on the topic. They are not the same, and therefore we need to examine each individual religion based on who it thinks god is and how mankind is to approach god.

If I am at a party and I meet somebody I've never met before, and that person claims to know a friend of mine named Mike Smith, I am probably going to ask followup questions about this Mike Smith in order to determine whether it's the same person.

If the person I'm speaking to ends up telling me that Mike Smith is a celestial mechanism and not really a person, I might want to take note of that.

And we're not even talking about the creator aof the entire universe there. We're just talking about some dude at a party. And yet many of us would feel it at least somewhat important to verify who that guy is if he's the topic of conversation.

Well Islam is not at this party right now so to demonstrate the point I'm going to ask Hinduism.

[TER]

I see no logical reason for that to be the case. I believe that God has revealed Himself to varying degrees to different cultures based on what they could accept at the time. I see no logical reason for that not to be the case.

God's fullest revelation is in the Incarnation of the Logos of God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, through Whose Blood our sins are forgiven and through Whose resurrected Body we find salvation from death.

I too believe God revealed Himself to different cultures based on what they could accept at the time (especially before His incarnation and the establishment of man's new covenant with God through Christ's blood). So, those who did not know Christ as the Messiah of Israel (on account of lack of knowledge, country of origin, upbringing, etc) will be judged differently compared to those who have heard of Him and rejected Him and His Body, the Church, which He established. God is Just and He knows the hearts of men. But men should not be so naive and ignore certain truths which Christ established on earth, and think by cherry picking and choosing and creating their own version of religion they can fool God, make an excuse and, ultimately, find mercy.

[Yieu]

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[Sola_Fide]

God most certainly is a person. He is the Supreme Person. If He did not have personhood, I do not think He could be God. We would then have something more than him, and we cannot be superior to God.

Yieu, the God of the Bible does not have a physical form.

[Yieu]

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[Yieu]

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[TER]

That is good to hear. I feel more assured that He will treat me kindly.

He will treat you justly, not necessarily what you believe is kindness.

I am glad that I do not create my own form of religion, then. The Lord established the faith that I try to follow. And I don't reject Jesus, either.

If your reject His Body, the Church, you reject Him as well. St. Paul thought he was serving God justly by persecuting the Church. And he learned that by persecuting the Church, he was indeed persecuting Christ Who said to him 'why do you persecute Me?'

Many will call Jesus 'Lord' on the Day of Judgement, who will be shut out of the Kingdom. Not saying this applies to you, just restating what Christ said.

[thoughtomator]

All you really need to know about Islam is that Mohammad is the person whose behavior all Muslims are supposed to emulate, and he was one of the most criminally insane individuals ever to walk the earth, engaging in genocide, slavery, rape (including children), pillage (the genuine article), piracy, and assassinations, among other horrors. It requires absolutely NO interpretation to come to this conclusion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ns_of_Muhammad

It is not in anyway an accident that those that are reading from the source ("fundamentalist") are behaving in the same way.

"I am Muslim" == "If you are not also Muslim I want to see you dead".

It should be treated as an open threat of violence and murder, because that's exactly what it is.

Other religions are NOT like that, except the kinds that do human sacrifice. Islam is a remnant of a dark side of primal humanity, the blood and power lust of humans-as-animal.

[Sola_Fide]

The Lord's form is spiritual, not physical. He created us in His image, and Jesus is described as having form.

When the Bible says man was created in God's image, it means nothing about physical attributes. It means that man, unlike the animals, is endowed with the ability to reason.

The second person of the Trinity putting on flesh does not change the nature of God, which is Spirit. God's nature never changes.

[TER]

The Lord's form is spiritual, not physical. He created us in His image, and Jesus is described as having form.

Do you believe Jesus at this time has human nature which includes a human body?

[thoughtomator]

the Qu'ran - like all religious texts - are open to wide ranging opinions. There is always someone like you to come around claiming to have the one true interpretation.

The only way one could have a "range of opinions" on Islam is through ignorance or deliberate deception. Most of what is told to Westerners is the latter, and by the former they repeat it.

[Yieu]

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[fisharmor]

The Lord's form is spiritual, not physical. He created us in His image, and Jesus is described as having form.

See this is exactly what I was getting at. Jesus is described as having form, true. If that's as far as you go with that statement then you are not talking about the same Jesus professed by Christianity.

Likewise with Islam (jilundqu) if Jesus is not God then we are not talking about the same god.

Christ is both fully man and fully God. Not was, is: not partially, fully. These are non-negotiable for Christians.
When you get into hair splitting at the level of the council of Chalcedon I'd concede some ground for argument. But we really are getting into hair-splitting there: way beyond "who is Mike Smith" and more like "does Mike Smith know how to drive a manual".

[PierzStyx]

The Left is trying to chill another debate with frivolous accusations of racism.
By David Harsanyi - November 25, 2015

"The GOP may well be overreacting to the Syrian refugee question, though its concerns are well within the bounds of reasonable discourse. American Muslims should never have their freedoms and protections undermined. But Islam does not deserve special immunity from criticism, any more than Seventh-Day Adventists or Mormons or anyone else."

At one time the US government also tried to exterminate Mormons as well. This isn't about having "special immunity" but individual liberty. And in that regard eveyrone, no matter what race, creed, or culture, has equal rights.

[TER]

That is all I can hope for. It is through the Lord's mercy and not my own power that we are saved and can go to Him. I trust in the Lord to make the right decision. Whatever He does to me, I desire to keep the mentality of a kitten carried in its mother's mouth with regards to love for and faith in the Lord.

It is good to believe this way. The problem is when we think we are keeping the mentality of such a kitten, though in reality, deny to be carried in the mother's mouth, insisting instead to dictate they way we should be carried, which happens to be foreign to the way the mother has instructed.

For example, do we partake of the Lord's Supper as the Lord commanded?

[ghengis86]

All you really need to know about Islam is that Mohammad is the person whose behavior all Muslims are supposed to emulate, and he was one of the most criminally insane individuals ever to walk the earth, engaging in genocide, slavery, rape (including children), pillage (the genuine article), piracy, and assassinations, among other horrors. It requires absolutely NO interpretation to come to this conclusion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ns_of_Muhammad

It is not in anyway an accident that those that are reading from the source ("fundamentalist") are behaving in the same way.

"I am Muslim" == "If you are not also Muslim I want to see you dead".

It should be treated as an open threat of violence and murder, because that's exactly what it is.

Other religions are NOT like that, except the kinds that do human sacrifice. Islam is a remnant of a dark side of primal humanity, the blood and power lust of humans-as-animal.

Interesting that of the three Abrahamic regions, only one doesn't instruct followers to treat non-believers differently.

Non-Muslims are infidels. You can basically do whatever you want to them and it's A-OK. Rape, murder, whatever. And children and women are just marginally above the infidel.

Non-Jews are goyim. You can lie, cheat, steal and deceive and use at will. Sure, you might not be able to kill goy with impunity, but you can sure get them to die for you while doing your bidding!

Non-Christians are...what are they again? Oh yeah, people who should be treated with love and kindness in the hope that they can one day come to the Lord through faith in Jesus Christ.

[TER]

See this is exactly what I was getting at. Jesus is described as having form, true. If that's as far as you go with that statement then you are not talking about the same Jesus professed by Christianity.

Likewise with Islam (jilundqu) if Jesus is not God then we are not talking about the same god.

Christ is both fully man and fully God. Not was, is: not partially, fully. These are non-negotiable for Christians.
When you get into hair splitting at the level of the council of Chalcedon I'd concede some ground for argument. But we really are getting into hair-splitting there: way beyond "who is Mike Smith" and more like "does Mike Smith know how to drive a manual".

Great point. To deny God came into the flesh, died, and rose again in the same flesh, is to deny Christ as Lord and God. This was the docetist Gnostic heresy which the Apostles and early Church had to contend against. If Christ does not now have human nature, we are all lost, there is no salvation for man, and the entire faith is in vain.

[thoughtomator]

At one time the US government also tried to exterminate Mormons as well. This isn't about having "special immunity" but individual liberty. And in that regard eveyrone, no matter what race, creed, or culture, has equal rights.

Which brings us to a fundamental coexistence conflict with Islam, which insists that only it has rights, and everyone else must submit.

[Yieu]

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[TER]

Interesting that of the three Abrahamic regions, only one doesn't instruct followers to treat non-believers differently.

Non-Muslims are infidels. You can basically do whatever you want to them and it's A-OK. Rape, murder, whatever. And children and women are just marginally above the infidel.

Non-Jews are goyim. You can lie, cheat, steal and deceive and use at will. Sure, you might not be able to kill goy with impunity, but you can sure get them to die for you while doing your bidding!

Non-Christians are...what are they again? Oh yeah, people who should be treated with love and kindness in the hope that they can one day come to the Lord through faith in Jesus Christ.

Love for enemies is what distinguishes the three. It is this love, which is in fact divine love, which has allowed any real progress and lasting beauty in the world.

[thoughtomator]

Non-Jews are goyim. You can lie, cheat, steal and deceive and use at will. Sure, you might not be able to kill goy with impunity, but you can sure get them to die for you while doing your bidding!

That's not actually what the laws of Judaism say, so they are not equivalent. The laws of Islam DO say that Muslims should do horrible things to others.

This equivalency is exactly the kind of thing that stems from profound ignorance about what Islam really teaches its adherents.