Silver falls below $14

[John X]

I think the word you meant to use was speculating, not investing. Physical metals are an investment. Stocks and other paper/digital asset classes (including paper silver) are more appropriately classified as speculation.

Lol....no. Investments are something that have risk and can potentially grow exponentially in value, like stocks. Stocks can given dividends that you can use to buy more stock which in turn give more dividends. Metals are speculation because you can only make money from them if somebody else will pay you more than you paid for it and a single ounce can never become 2 ounces.

Couldn't resist building a strawman? Our exchange was going so well.

I don't think the exchange was going well given "Y U NO SHARE CRYSTAL BALL WITH EVERYONE ELSE? lol"

[devil21]

Lol....no. Investments are something that have risk and can potentially grow exponentially in value, like stocks. Stocks can given dividends that you can use to buy more stock which in turn give more dividends. Metals are speculation because you can only make money from them if somebody else will pay you more than you paid for it and a single ounce can never become 2 ounces.

How can someone invest something that doesn't exist into something else that doesn't exist? If I "invest" a digit in a computer into a digital claim for silver, all I have done is move some electrons around between computers. "Investing" imaginary money into an imaginary asset isn't investing. That is speculation and is actually mass delusion. The definition of words matter, sir.

I don't think the exchange was going well given "Y U NO SHARE CRYSTAL BALL WITH EVERYONE ELSE? lol"

Perhaps, but at least I'm talking about a tangible asset that actually exists.

Considering the IMF is formally adopting the yuan into the SDR today, I think physical assets are a pretty good investment, looking forward. Gold and silver both, but it was a wise man that once said that gold is the money of kings, silver is the money of gentlemen and paper is the money of slaves. What are computer digits the money of? Obviously less than slaves...

[Zippyjuan]

Is your paycheck imaginary? Or do they give you silver and gold in exchange for your labor? Are you a king or less than a slave?

[devil21]

Is your paycheck imaginary? Or do they give you silver and gold in exchange for your labor?

You don't want to go there or this thread will go way off-topic. But yes, it is imaginary. My labor is not imaginary. Funny how that works....it's like working for free. Isn't that what slaves do?

[Zippyjuan]

So you are willing to work for imaginary money. Interesting. Since it is just imaginary, can I play with some of it? Half of nothing would be nothing so no loss to you, right?

Can you only exchange that imaginary money for imaginary things?

[devil21]

So you are willing to work for imaginary money. Interesting.

I wasn't speaking for myself, per se. This is a hypothetical conversation.

Can you only exchange that imaginary money for imaginary things?

Of course not. That's the whole point.

[Zippyjuan]

Can you exchange your imaginary money for real goods and services then? If I take some to the grocery store will they give me food for it?

[devil21]

Can you exchange your imaginary money for real goods and services then? If I take some to the grocery store will they give me food for it?

What part of "mass delusion" did you not grasp?

[Zippyjuan]

What part of "mass delusion" did you not grasp?

Money is what people agree it is. It is a medium of exchange. It is your paycheck- what you get in exchange for your labor. It is what you use to exchange for goods and services. If everyone agrees that electrons in certain configurations have value, then they have value. If you think gold and silver are better, you need to convince more people to accept it for goods and services. The creators of BitCoin are trying to do that (another electronic money though). Delusion or not, it is real.

"Investing" imaginary money into an imaginary asset isn't investing.

If I can exchange imaginary money for goods and services then it isn't imaginary. Can I take gold into the grocery store and will they give me food in exchange for it? If not (and I don't see people trading gold for food these days), then gold and silver are less real money than digital money is. Physically, they are real. But they are not money if they cannot be exchanged for goods and services. To exchange gold and silver for goods and services you have to first convert them into your imaginary money and use that to purchase things.

Trading imaginary money for metals is also "speculation". You are speculating that you will be able to get even more imaginary money in the future for them which you can in turn exchange for more goods and services. All investing is "speculating". Not investing is also speculating. You are speculating that you won't need to invest money for the future. You are speculating that your money will still have value in the future.

[John X]

How can someone invest something that doesn't exist into something else that doesn't exist? If I "invest" a digit in a computer into a digital claim for silver, all I have done is move some electrons around between computers. "Investing" imaginary money into an imaginary asset isn't investing. That is speculation and is actually mass delusion. The definition of words matter, sir.

I agree and you are simply making them up. Stocks are an example of an investment. That is simply what those words mean. You can babble about electrons as much as you want but it won't change the meaning of investment and stocks.

Considering the IMF is formally adopting the yuan into the SDR today, I think physical assets are a pretty good investment, looking forward. Gold and silver both, but it was a wise man that once said that gold is the money of kings, silver is the money of gentlemen and paper is the money of slaves. What are computer digits the money of? Obviously less than slaves...

Anything is possible in the future.....historically the only way to get very good returns on gold, sufficient for high degrees of risk in holding it, is to time the market at and sell at the peak of speculative bubbles, in the 80s or 2011. Stocks have historically been much safer, with much better returns.

[devil21]

Money is what people agree it is. It is a medium of exchange.

Or rather is it that money is what people are indoctrinated to agree it is? It is mass delusion. They literally have nothing but think they have something.

Anything is possible in the future.....historically the only way to get very good returns on gold, sufficient for high degrees of risk in holding it, is to time the market at and sell at the peak of speculative bubbles, in the 80s or 2011. Stocks have historically been much safer, with much better returns.

Tradition

[Bossobass]

Lol....no. Investments are something that have risk and can potentially grow exponentially in value, like stocks. Stocks can given dividends that you can use to buy more stock which in turn give more dividends. Metals are speculation because you can only make money from them if somebody else will pay you more than you paid for it and a single ounce can never become 2 ounces.

Wow. Seriously?

If you bought a monster of Eagles (500 coins) before the crash @ $7 ($3,500) and sold it a few years later When silver sold for $45 ($22,500), how many Eagles could you buy today? HINT: Each pre-crash Eagle has now become 3 Eagles.

PM haters always drone on as though there is some unwritten law against trading them.

Money is what people agree it is. It is a medium of exchange. It is your paycheck- what you get in exchange for your labor.

"Fiat" doen't indicate agreement. What you exchange for your labor (On Call Shill) is what TPTB decree you will get. Over the past 100 years that "medium of exchange" has gone from being backed by gold and worth $1.00 to being backed by Zippy Love and worth $0.02.

Can I take gold into the grocery store and will they give me food in exchange for it? If not (and I don't see people trading gold for food these days), then gold and silver are less real money than digital money is. Physically, they are real. But they are not money if they cannot be exchanged for goods and services. To exchange gold and silver for goods and services you have to first convert them into your imaginary money and use that to purchase things.

Ugh.

Can you take your paycheck into the store and exchange it for food? No, they don't accept checks. You have to take your paycheck to a place that will exchange it for whatever the grocery store will accept. The same is true for gold. Gold is readily exchangeable for any currency in any country in the world, whereas, your paycheck certainly is not.

PMs, like all other commodities, have fallen in exchange rate against the USD because the USDX has risen to >100 for the first time since Y2K. The DOW is up 70% since Y2K, silver is up 330% since Y2K (and much more if you were smart enough to trade it)

[John X]

Wow. Seriously?

If you bought a monster of Eagles (500 coins) before the crash @ $7 ($3,500) and sold it a few years later When silver sold for $45 ($22,500), how many Eagles could you buy today? HINT: Each pre-crash Eagle has now become 3 Eagles.

PM haters always drone on as though there is some unwritten law against trading them.

Did you not read the very post you quoted? "Metals are speculation because you can only make money from them if somebody else will pay you more than you paid for it and a single ounce can never become 2 ounces." Yes, if you sold at the peak and bought at the lows you have more silver, just like I said. You cannot simply buy and hold silver and get more silver like you can with stocks.

[John X]

PMs, like all other commodities, have fallen in exchange rate against the USD because the USDX has risen to >100 for the first time since Y2K. The DOW is up 70% since Y2K, silver is up 330% since Y2K (and much more if you were smart enough to trade it)

The DOW is up much more than that. You are not counting dividends.

[Zippyjuan]

Wow. Seriously?

If you bought a monster of Eagles (500 coins) before the crash @ $7 ($3,500) and sold it a few years later When silver sold for $45 ($22,500), how many Eagles could you buy today? HINT: Each pre-crash Eagle has now become 3 Eagles.

PM haters always drone on as though there is some unwritten law against trading them.




"Fiat" doen't indicate agreement. What you exchange for your labor (On Call Shill) is what TPTB decree you will get. Over the past 100 years that "medium of exchange" has gone from being backed by gold and worth $1.00 to being backed by Zippy Love and worth $0.02.



Ugh.

Can you take your paycheck into the store and exchange it for food? No, they don't accept checks. You have to take your paycheck to a place that will exchange it for whatever the grocery store will accept. The same is true for gold. Gold is readily exchangeable for any currency in any country in the world, whereas, your paycheck certainly is not.

PMs, like all other commodities, have fallen in exchange rate against the USD because the USDX has risen to >100 for the first time since Y2K. The DOW is up 70% since Y2K, silver is up 330% since Y2K (and much more if you were smart enough to trade it)

On the other hand if you bought at that $45 prices, they would be worth one third of that today. Value of the dollar in terms of silver tripled in that time.

[Bossobass]

On the other hand if you bought at that $45 prices, they would be worth one third of that today. Value of the dollar in terms of silver tripled in that time.

They would be worth 1/2 today.

Yes, it was $45 for what, 10 minutes? Is that when YOU bought? Those eagles are selling for $21 today, IF you buy 500 of them.



Learn something about trading silver, THEN post, eh?

[Bossobass]

Did you not read the very post you quoted? "Metals are speculation because you can only make money from them if somebody else will pay you more than you paid for it and a single ounce can never become 2 ounces." Yes, if you sold at the peak and bought at the lows you have more silver, just like I said. You cannot simply buy and hold silver and get more silver like you can with stocks.

The DOW is up much more than that. You are not counting dividends.

Unlike PMs, the DOW throws out stocks that suck wind and adds stock that have nothing to do with Industrials. Much less having guaranteed dividends, before CG taxes and fees, you aren't guaranteed t your DOW stock will still be a DOW stock after 15 years.

But hey, by all means load up on them. NOW seems to be a great time to get into the Great Wall Street Casino, yeah?

[Zippyjuan]

The DOW is just the 30 largest industrial stocks. Yes, that does change over time. Not being a DOW stock does not make it worthless though. There are over 5,000 which are not in the DOW.

Metals have much higher taxes and fees which means you need to have much higher gains in prices just to break even on an investment in them. On that big box of silver you are paying $20.74 an ounce while it shows $14 an ounce as the spot price of silver. That means about a 50% premium ($6.74) over the spot price of silver. If you pay the same premium on selling, you need the price to double to break even. A 20% premium needs a 40% gain (and we are not counting taxes including sales tax if any plus gains taxes- coins are treated as "collectables" and are subject to normal tax rates which start at 25%).

I am in a utility DRIP (dividend re-investment plan). They take the dividends and roll them over into more shares at zero cost to me. When I bought $5,000 more in shares earlier this year I was charged $0.18. Yes, eighteen cents. I will pay capital gains tax on them which is a lower rate.

Nothing comes with a guaranteed return or no risk.

[John X]

Unlike PMs, the DOW throws out stocks that suck wind and adds stock that have nothing to do with Industrials. Much less having guaranteed dividends, before CG taxes and fees, you aren't guaranteed t your DOW stock will still be a DOW stock after 15 years.

You can just buy an ETF that tracks the index. You are guaranteed to own the DOW at all times. Taxes are an issue....but most people have space for $23,500 worth of tax advantaged contributions per year. And of course legally you are supposed to pay taxes on gains from trading PMs as well.

But hey, by all means load up on them. NOW seems to be a great time to get into the Great Wall Street Casino, yeah?

Market timing is of course tough....historically stocks have never been down if you reinvest dividends and wait 20+. I guess you could also try to catch a falling knife and speculate in the PM market.

[Zippyjuan]

How is gold doing?



Silver

[devil21]

How is gold doing?



Silver

Funny you ask. COMEX stores depleting and paper oz claims to physical oz inventory just hit all time high of 294! Some sure are taking their gold and running with it.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-1...w-all-time-low

[Bossobass]

The thread is about silver falling <$14.

A HUGE buying opportunity that many smart people are availing themselves of:

...Soros, Icahn And Major New Players Rushing Into Gold: "Things Are In The Works As We Speak"*
I do believe*that markets ultimately prevail. I do believe that supply and demand will ultimately prevail. I’m confident that we will see that occur...
*
The fact there are some very substantial new players coming into the sector and taking positions in gold and silver… I think that’s showing that things will change and I think things are in the works as we speak.

We exist in a completely manipulated economy. All commodities, especially genetically modified ones, are manipulated. Although hefty fines are levied against the conspirators, no prosecutions tells us that the justice system is externally distorted as well.

Stocks have been grossly inflated through buybacks facilitated by ZIRP. Small business, OTOH, have been left to wither on the vine as ZIRP only applies to the banks that crashed the economy in the first place.

Dividends are irrelevant.

In any event, to derail a thread by pretending out loud that everyone who buys stocks wins and everyone who buys PMs loses is $#@!ing ludicrous and has become the hallmark of the RP Forums economic forum thanks to what appears to be a 24/7/365 occupation by shills like Zippy who lap FED bag and spew green shoots headlines as though RP fans are idiots.

Stocks sell for the ticker price. Silver sells for whatever price one wants to sell it for to whomever wants to buy it at that price, regardless of the spot price and irrelevant to taxes and premiums.

I've done extremely well with PMs and retain enough tonnage to survive the boom/bust manipulation by the TBTF owners of this and most every other country in the so-called global economy. In the crash, stock portfolios lost 75% while PMs tripled. To deny that shows ignorance of the facts.

It’s really what you pay for stuff that creates value. If you’re buying*stuff at the top of the market you’re destroying value. You never*really know when the exact top of the market is and you never really know when the bottom of the market is. But, I know we’re around the bottom or are close to the bottom… But I*don’t really care because I’m a long-term fundamental investor and I know that we can make a lot of money buying assets at these prices that we’re paying today.

[John X]

Timing markets is really hard. Just look at the previous RPF silver thread. "I doubt its gonna drop to 40/35/30/25/20 but if it does I'm gonna back the truck up!!!!!". All of these people are sitting on some pretty bad losses if they followed through. Of course you can just claim that all of those people were obviously wrong, you bought at 6 and sold at 50 and silver is a great buy now. I would consider buying PMs but I'm too busy banging supermodels on my yacht.

[Dforkus]

Some people's timelines are longer than others. If you see anyone actually selling silver for $14/oz you let us know, k? That's a bs paper price that doesn't exist in the physical market.

It doesn't matter if your timeline is 1 million years, if you bought into silver at the 25$ or more prices that it was just a few years ago, you made a bad investment decision...

If you did nothing but stuff dollars under the mattress in 2012, instead of buying silver coins, you could have pulled those dollars out of the mattress in 2015 and bought even more gold coins...

and also the premium you pay over the spot market also doesn't matter.. when the spot market was at 30 your coin dealer wouldn't sell you an once at 30$ either, so it's not anything new or different that he won't sell you one at 14$..

the fact of the matter is retail bullion, is down just like commodity level bullion..

I'm not saying my poop doesn't stink, I'm not saying for one seconds I've made bets (be they on wall street or vegas), that didn't pan out, were poorly timed, or just flat out wrong... I just prefer to own up to it, and not weave a tapestry of self delusion...

[John X]

We exist in a completely manipulated economy. All commodities, especially genetically modified ones, are manipulated. Although hefty fines are levied against the conspirators, no prosecutions tells us that the justice system is externally distorted as well.

Stocks have been grossly inflated through buybacks facilitated by ZIRP. Small business, OTOH, have been left to wither on the vine as ZIRP only applies to the banks that crashed the economy in the first place.

You sound like a degenerate gambler who bets on sports and complains that "the fix was in" whenever he loses. Of course he somehow NEVER wins because of the fix. Just like the things you like (PMs) are always manipulated down and the things you don't like (Stocks) are manipulated up.

[Zippyjuan]

You sound like a degenerate gambler who bets on sports and complains that "the fix was in" whenever he loses. Of course he somehow NEVER wins because of the fix. Just like the things you like (PMs) are always manipulated down and the things you don't like (Stocks) are manipulated up.

When the metals bubble was inflating the price rises were market driven and never going to stop. Once the bubble started to deflate and prices fall, they cried "market manipulation".

Things never repeat but after the last metal bubble in 1980, prices gradually declined for over 20 years. There were a lot of "huge buying opportunities" along the way down. If you adjust for inflation, gold has never hit the high it did in 1980.

[devil21]

It doesn't matter if your timeline is 1 million years, if you bought into silver at the 25$ or more prices that it was just a few years ago, you made a bad investment decision...

If you did nothing but stuff dollars under the mattress in 2012, instead of buying silver coins, you could have pulled those dollars out of the mattress in 2015 and bought even more gold coins...

and also the premium you pay over the spot market also doesn't matter.. when the spot market was at 30 your coin dealer wouldn't sell you an once at 30$ either, so it's not anything new or different that he won't sell you one at 14$..

the fact of the matter is retail bullion, is down just like commodity level bullion..

I'm not saying my poop doesn't stink, I'm not saying for one seconds I've made bets (be they on wall street or vegas), that didn't pan out, were poorly timed, or just flat out wrong... I just prefer to own up to it, and not weave a tapestry of self delusion...

I still think you guys are describing speculating instead of describing investing. Oh well. People are gonna do what they're gonna do. Carry on.

Timing markets is really hard. Just look at the previous RPF silver thread. "I doubt its gonna drop to 40/35/30/25/20 but if it does I'm gonna back the truck up!!!!!". All of these people are sitting on some pretty bad losses if they followed through. Of course you can just claim that all of those people were obviously wrong, you bought at 6 and sold at 50 and silver is a great buy now. I would consider buying PMs but I'm too busy banging supermodels on my yacht.

Haven't lost a thing until the asset is sold at a loss or becomes literally worthless. Do you attribute the same standard to stocks and bonds as you are attributing to metals? Something tells me your answer is "no".

[Danke]

Things are out of whack.

Paper Gold Vs. Physical Gold Hits All-Time High! Yuan Becomes a Reserve Currency


There are now 294 ounces of “paper gold” for every 1 ounce of gold the COMEX holds that is actually deliverable.

JP Morgan reported last week that their COMEX vault declined by nearly 50% starting on November 16th. Currently, JP Morgan is reporting 347,899 ounces held in their vault, a new all-time low!

Just to give you an idea of the type of extreme we are seeing in the availability of gold commitments versus the actual physical metal that can be delivered, throughout the 2000s, the ratio of paper gold vs. the physical gold was usually less than 25 to 1. In late 2013, this number reached 50 to 1, but it has truly gone parabolic in 2015, with the ratio now being at 294 fantasy ounces to every 1 real ounce of gold.

At the very least, this is evidence for significant manipulation and price suppression in the gold market.

Big shifts are coming, and old paradigms are collapsing. Yesterday, the IMF confirmed that the Chinese yuan will be included in the SDR basket starting October 1st, 2016, making its importance as a new reserve currency official.

Specific details aren’t known yet as to its exact weighting, but according to Reuters, the Chinese currency will have a larger share in the SDR than both the Japanese yen and British pound.

This move for the near-term won’t have any impact. However, long-term, this will give rise to yuan demand considerably, causing further downward pressure on dollar demand going forward.

For FutureMoneyTrends.com, this is just a continued confirmation that the world -- especially for Americans -- is going to look a lot different in 10 years or less. The world is moving on from dollar hegemony, and so should we.

Best Regards,


Daniel Ameduri
President, FutureMoneyTrends.com

[Zippyjuan]

https://www.goldrepublic.com/news/comex-not-bankrupt

Regarding the Alleged Shortages

Just about every month I am bombarded with another article arguing that coin and bullion traders have large shortages.

And this should somehow show us that the gold price is being manipulated. After all, 'we are running out of gold (or silver) and yet the price hasn’t changed!'

There’s a mistake in this logic: the shortage of one specific product (take for example, the Australian silver Koala coin) is interpreted as a more general shortage in the entire precious metals market.

It’s very well possible that there’s a shortage of Koala coins. Its producer, Perth Mint, has limited capacity to mint Koala’s from silver. So it’s possible that there are no longer any Koala’s in stock at a certain point in time. But that doesn’t mean there’s a shortage of silver; it only means that the production capacity of Perth Mint is lagging behind the demand for this specific product. More so, Perth Mint does have plenty of ways to acquire silver bullion. It just isn’t minting fast enough to keep up with the demand for Koala’s.

This shortage results in a premium on Koala coins compared to the silver spot price. .

And what is true for Koala’s, also goes for other gold and silver coins, as well as smaller bar sizes.

Only when there a shortage of silver bullion arises (you know: the standard size bars they sell on the London exchange), will it have an impact on the price in the futures market. Until we see that the prices of bullion rise, we do not need to worry about a shortage. I can assure you that there currently are no bullion shortages and, as a result, no price premiums have to be paid for precious metals.

Why All the Commotion?

Often, there are other interests at stake. A lot of people who choose to scare others with horror stories have a commercial interest to do so.

Marketing specialists know that a 'sense of urgency' sells well. An example can be drawn from booking.com: they offer hotel rooms, and when you scan their website looking at rooms they will notify you with messages expressing urgency: "There’s 1 room left," "15 People are looking at this hotel," "Last booking: 11 minutes ago," etcetera.

The Comex myth is abused to function as an equivalent of Booking.com’s 'now-or-never' marketing tactic.

[devil21]

The two articles appear to be addressing different, but related, issues. JPM is selling gold contracts for gold it doesn't have and their gold inventory to back those contracts for those seeking delivery is disappearing. If JPM's gold holdings at COMEX go to zero, as they appear to be doing, what of those still holding contracts for delivery?