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Thread: A Question about Governors not having any power re: Syrian immigration

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    I'm thinking that the first Governor to make a public stand against the feds and not back down is going to win the hearts and minds of the people in his state.

    Whether it's this issue or another........
    I agree. I also believe that people who care about this situation really do need to provide their input to their Governors, whether they're for or against admitting refugees.
    This issue is more important than most people realize.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!



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  3. #62
    Okay. Do you think that the misuse of Jonathan Swift and of font makes your own falsehoods true? Again, that case does not stand for the proposition that a state a restrict who comes or does not come to their state but rather that a state can chose to naturalize or not naturalize someone. A state naturalizing someone doesn't make that person a U.S. citizen and the U.S. naturalizing someone does not make that person a citizen of a particular state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Contumacious View Post
    Falsehood flies, and the Truth comes limping after it; so that when Men come to be undeceiv’d, it is too late; the Jest is over, and the Tale has had its Effect…

    Jonathan Swift



    FORGET WHAT YOU HAVE READ OR HEARD


    ONCE UPON A TIME THE STATES WERE ******SOVEREIGN********


    THE STATES RETAINED THE RIGHT TO CONFER THEIR CITIZENSHIP UPON WHOMEVER - MEANING A MINNESSOTA RESIDENT HAS ALL THE RIGHTS IT CAN GRANT BUT SOUTH DAKOTA DOES NOT HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THE SAME.


    MINNESOTA DID NOT CONFER *******US******* CITIZENSHIP ONLY CONGRESS CAN NATURALIZE CITIZENS


    FROM THE CASE


    The Constitution has conferred on Congress the right to establish an uniform rule of naturalization, and this right is evidently exclusive, and has always been held by this court to be so. Consequently, no State, since the adoption of the Constitution, can by naturalizing an alien invest him with the rights and privileges secured to a citizen of a State under the Federal government, although, so far as the State alone was concerned, he would undoubtedly be entitled to the rights of a citizen, and clothed with all the rights and immunities which the constitution and laws of the State attached to that character.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    John, that particular text regarding the ruling and opinion in that case involves State citizenship vs. U.S. Citizenship. In other words, if Texas wanted to admit Mexicans and make them citizens, they could do so, but it wouldn't translate into them becoming U.S. Citizens. As for the word "immigration" not being in the text - use of the word emigrant is in the text when referring to Boyd's father.
    Deb you don't realize this but YOU HAVE JUST PROVED MY POINT!

    (Yes your ally in this thread isn't the only one who knows how to use big fonts. )

    Please think this through before responding. Your claim is that the governors have a right to restrict who comes into their state. But as you just state all this case is about is who becomes a citizen of what jurisdiction. The case has NOTHING to do with the right of states to restrict travel of someone granted entry into the United States. It just doesn't. So quit pretending that it does.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    I will love it when the world gets on board with us and our idea of what freedom looks like. Then, we can cross borders anywhere on earth as freely as we do state lines in our country. But alas, tis not to be borne at this juncture in the history of the human race. Boiling down "crossing geological boundaries" to a microcosm - using the Great Depression as an example - I'm sure you've seen signs like this:



    Can you really blame a community, a neighborhood, a family, a nation, for putting their own interests first?
    I hope you can see how badly the pic you posted undercuts your own argument. For one thing this isn't about "blaming" a community for making what might not be a good decision. I don't "blame" Americans for overwhelmingly supporting the war in Iraq or the unPatriot Act or creating the department of Homeland inSecurity. We had been attacked and we were simultaneously angry and fearful. We wanted to attack somebody, and the quick defeat of the Taliban in Afghanistan wasn't enough to satiate our blood lust. And we wanted to be protected and we kept hearing that the terrorists used our freedom against us. So giving up some of that freedom in exchange for protection against the scary terrorists made sense. And I say "we" because even though I disagreed with each of those decisions, I at least understood them.

    But beyond that, what is the significance of that sign? Did the Chamber of Commerce of that town have armed guards at the border of the town checking IDs and economic status of men passing through? Unlikely. COCs don't have that kind of power. Further nobody is saying states shouldn't have strict residency requirements for welfare. Note the sign said "We cannot take care of our own." So if this city merely had a policy that you had to be able to prove you had lived in the town for X number of years before you could avail yourself of whatever taxpayer funded assistance the town was doling out, nobody here would have a problem with that. However, say if I owned property in the limits of that town and I decided to set up a homeless shelter. Should the town be able to stop me from doing that? Say if I decided to hire unemployed workers walking through the town, undercutting the local wage. Should the town be able to stop me from doing that? The libertarian position on that is clearly no.

    I have not made up my mind on this whole immigration issue. On the one hand I think it's bogus that the same people republicrats who say they need to spy on us to protect us insist on leaving the borders open. And yes, letting in large numbers of immigrants from an area where there are people wanting to kill us for whatever reason without a strong vetting process to keep out the subset that are "mad dogs" as Ben Carson put it makes no sense. But some of what I'm hearing on the forums these days smacks of pure nativism. Nativism is understandable. But is it really practical? Again I bring you back to the question that I've asked several times which is do you really want governors to exercise the kind of power needed to do what you think they have the power to do and apparently believe they should do? You haven't given a concrete proposal on what to do, so I will give you one I read just yesterday in the local newspaper. A lawmaker proposed that the Tennessee National Guard be mobilized to round up Syrian refugees to take them to the nearest ICE center and to have checkpoints on the highway to "stop them from coming in." I'm certain you would be against such a proposal. But such a proposal is the only way to do what you seem to think the governors have the power to do and maybe should do. Seriously, a law means nothing if it's not actually enforced. You can't keep ignoring the question of "So how would you enforce this if you were governor?" Forget for a moment whether the constitution allows such lunacy. Do we really want it?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dog View Post
    The Constitution very clearly spells out that it is Congress that makes the laws regarding naturalization.


    The Federal government, not the States, has power over admitting aliens into the United States and the conditions in which they are admitted. The States have no power over this.
    Granting citizenship is a power delegated to the federal government. As for immigration, one can make the case that both the federal and state government may restrict immigration, and it is the states that allow immigration - forcing immigration against the will of a state is not a power delegate to the federal government. But all of that is only if the Constitution maters.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  8. #66
    John, I'll respond to your posts as soon as I'm able but in the meantime, the following post from another thread on this topic should be posted here as well and it succinctly lays out the argument without any straw man fallacies:

    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    The link you provide is an opinion piece which is void of documentation from our forefathers confirming our federal government was vested with the power to control and regulate a States' immigration policy. The exception and limited power is found in in Article 1, Section 9 .


    I contend that the power to regulate immigration is a power exercised by the original 13 States and preexisted our existing Constitution. I further contend that if this power has not been expressly delegated to Congress, then it is a power reserved by the States under our Constitution’s Tenth Amendment.


    Our federal government’s delegated power starts and stops with the power to establish a uniform rule of naturalization, not immigration.
    There is a big difference between the words “immigration” and “naturalization”.


    The ordinary meaning of the word "immigration" is the entrance into a country by foreigners for the purpose of permanent residence. This word does not appear in our Constitution.


    “Naturalization” does appear in our Constitution in the following context:


    Congress shall have power “To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization…”



    We also find the words “Migration” in our Constitution in the following context:


    The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person. see: Article 1, Section 9



    As to the ordinary meaning of “naturalization”, its meaning is nothing more than the act by which an alien becomes a citizen. Congress, under our Constitution, is granted an exclusive, but limited power to establish a uniform rule by which an alien may become a citizen, regardless of what State the alien migrates to. But the power over “naturalization” does not, nor was it intended to, interfere with a particular state’s original policing power over foreigners wishing to immigrate into their State. This is verified by the following documentation taken from the debates dealing with our nation’s first Rule of Naturalization, Feb. 3rd, 1790


    REPRESENTATIVE SHERMAN, who attended the Constitutional Convention which framed our Constitution points to the intentions for which a power over naturalization was granted to Congress. He says: “that Congress should have the power of naturalization, in order to prevent particular States receiving citizens, and forcing them upon others who would not have received them in any other manner. It was therefore meant to guard against an improper mode of naturalization, rather than foreigners should be received upon easier terms than those adopted by the several States.” see CONGRESSIONAL DEBATES, Rule of Naturalization, Feb. 3rd, 1790 PAGE 1148


    In addition, REPRESENTATIVE WHITE while debating the Rule of Naturalization notes the narrow limits of what “Naturalization” [the power granted to Congress] means, and he ”doubted whether the constitution authorized Congress to say on what terms aliens or citizens should hold lands in the respective States; the power vested by the Constitution in Congress, respecting the subject now before the House, extend to nothing more than making a uniform rule of naturalization. After a person has once become a citizen, the power of congress ceases to operate upon him; the rights and privileges of citizens in the several States belong to those States; but a citizen of one State is entitled to all the privileges and immunities of the citizens in the several States…..all, therefore, that the House have to do on this subject, is to confine themselves to an uniform rule of naturalization and not to a general definition of what constitutes the rights of citizenship in the several States.” see: Rule of Naturalization, Feb. 3rd, 1790, page 1152


    And finally, REPRESENTATIVE STONEconcluded that the laws and constitutions of the States, and the constitution of the United States; would trace out the steps by which they should acquire certain degrees of citizenship [page 1156]. Congress may point out a uniform rule of naturalization; but cannot say what shall be the effect of that naturalization, as it respects the particular States. Congress cannot say that foreigners, naturalized, under a general law, shall be entitled to privileges which the States withhold from native citizens. See: Rule of Naturalization, Feb. 3rd, 1790, pages 1156 and 1157


    The irrefutable fact is, nowhere in our Constitution has our federal government, much less the President of the United States, been vested with a power over the immigration of foreigners into the United States or a power to compel a state to accept them.


    The limited power granted to the federal government is that which allows Congress to create the requirements which an alien, regardless of what state that alien has immigrated to, must meet in order to become a “citizen of the United States”.


    It should also be noted that the 14th Amendment, by its very language confirms each State may make distinctions between “citizens” and “persons” when regulating and enforcing its laws!


    Please note that a review of our Constitution’s 14th Amendment declares that “citizens” of the United States are guaranteed the “privileges or immunities” offered by the state in which they are located. But those who are not “citizens of the united States” and referred to as “persons“ (which would include aliens and those who have entered a State or the United States illegally), are not entitled to the “privileges or immunities“ which a state has created for its “citizens“.


    The 14th Amendment only requires that “persons” may not be deprived of life, liberty, or property without the benefit of the state’s codified due process of law being applied to them equally, as it is applied to all other “persons” within the state in question.


    CONCLUSION


    The State of Texas, as well as every other State has retained its policing power to determine the flow of foreigners into their State, which is an original power exercised by each state and never ceded to our federal government.


    Neither Congress nor the president has a power under the Constitution to force the unwanted populations of other countries upon the States. The various states should immediately go into Court and ask the Court for an injunction to stop Obama from forcing the states to accept unwanted foreigners while it determines the legitimacy of Obama's or Congress forcing tens of thousands of foreigners upon the various United States, especially when the introduction of these foreigners pose a very real threat to the general welfare of the States.


    Keep in mind a three-judge panel of the U.S. 5th Circuit Court of Appeals has just ruled against the Obama administration’s controversial immigration program, upholding a lower court's injunction barring the plan from taking effect while awaiting the outcome of a full trial on the lawsuit's underlying arguments. One of the reasons for granting the injunction was the devastating effects thrust upon the States without their permission.


    JWK



    If the America People do not rise up and defend their existing Constitution and the intentions and beliefs under which it was adopted, who is left to do so but the very people it was designed to control and regulate?

    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    We already have laws in place to deal with refugees. Obama is acting within the law.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee_Act

    He's only outside the law if he admits more than 50,000 refugees a year. If the states want to change refugee policy they will have to do it through the legislature. The states have no power really other than non-cooperation to stop refugees from being placed here.

    This law is unconstitutional. It violates (at the minimum) the 10th amendment. Where in the constitution does the executive branch get to be put in charge of refugees?
    Refugees aren't even in the constitution for any branch and therefore this law further violate the supremacy clause.
    So Obama may be acting within the law, but this is an unconstitutional law. Since it's unconstitutional, the governors can defend their state boarders and don't need to succumb to this law.

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dog View Post
    The Constitution very clearly spells out that it is Congress that makes the laws regarding naturalization.


    The Federal government, not the States, has power over admitting aliens into the United States and the conditions in which they are admitted. The States have no power over this.
    You are right that the constitution is very clear on this issue. But you're wrong when you interpret refugee status - I don't see that term. I only see the naturalization part you talk about. Are the refugees following the same uniform naturalization law as the rest of the nation? And which provision says the federal government can force refugees into any state they choose?

    You do also point out that naturalization is the job of congress, which is correct. Is Obama still part of congress????

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dog View Post
    Naturalization rules are exactly the same throughout the country, which is what "uniform" means. It's the same law in California, Texas, and Vermont.
    It further means that all future citizens are naturalized in the exact same way - not that some people can be refugees while others aren't. That's not uniform that different groups have different rules. Though that's not the point. A bigger focus and a more clear cut valuation in this case comes to light when it's realized that Obama is no longer part of congress. The executive branch has nothing to do with naturalization

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    The first problem I see here is that there are no states whose citizens all agree that they don't want to accept any refugees. What these governors are trying to do is prohibit citizens who want to help them from being able to. Neither the federal nor state governments have any right to do that.
    I don't understand. Do citizens of a state have to 100% agree on issues?? Wouldn't that be a state run by unanimous decision? We don't even have states run by majorly rule on all issues. So what do you mean by this statement?

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    The Constitution absolutely is not vague in this area.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/brow...ralization?s=t
    So you agree that the executive branch has no power over naturalization. And you agree that all the different forms of naturalization (including ones specific for refugees) are not the same (uniform) for all.
    Correct?

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    So Syrian refugee comes in through New York, get's New York drivers license, drives to Texas and the Texas governor keeps him out how exactly? By posting state troopers on at every border crossing and stopping people demanding proof of origin?
    Sure, the state can do this. I doubt they will. But they can.

    If all all the governors who oppose these refugees do this, they will successfully call the federal government's bluff.



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Look, this is all the power! If a state is serious about rejecting these entitlement-minded dole-seeking rejects, they will absolutely be able to reject them. The feds will almost certainly not be able to force them to accept them. The feds rely on the states. It's just like the marijuana laws. The feds are a paper tiger in regards to this stuff. They are spread too thin to be able to enforce all their wishes on uncooperative states.
    Exactly right!!

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    A state naturalizing someone doesn't make that person a U.S. citizen and the U.S. naturalizing someone does not make that person a citizen of a particular state.
    Exactly right. A state cannot make a person a US Citizen. Just as the executive branch cannot make a person a US Citizen.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by TommyJeff View Post
    I don't understand. Do citizens of a state have to 100% agree on issues?? Wouldn't that be a state run by unanimous decision? We don't even have states run by majorly rule on all issues. So what do you mean by this statement?
    Nobody has the right to infringe on other peoples' rights, even if they outnumber them. So yes, even if 99% of the state wants to tell the other 1% that they can't harbor Syrian refugees, that 99% has no right to do that. It would have to be unanimous.

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Nobody has the right to infringe on other peoples' rights, even if they outnumber them. So yes, even if 99% of the state wants to tell the other 1% that they can't harbor Syrian refugees, that 99% has no right to do that. It would have to be unanimous.
    I'm still confused. exactly what "right" are you talking about? Are individual US citizens bringing refugees into their personal houses in all cases relating to the OP?? Is that your contention?

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