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Thread: Does Rand Support a VAT Tax?

  1. #1

    Default Does Rand Support a VAT Tax?

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog...oposing-a-vat/

    Can anyone confirm this? does Rand Paul's tax plan include a VAT Tax? if so, this is very scary and a horrible idea. how can he justify this?



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  3. #2

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    Anyone who supports a VAT tax can go $#@! themselves.
    "Even an establishment Republican like Jerry Moran is far more libertarian you are." Traditional Conservative

    "You're a far more horrible person than she (Bristol Palin) will ever be." angelatc

  4. #3

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    It seemed to be a limited version. Don't count me as an expert, I don't see where it adds to every level of production.

    Personally, I would have left out the business tax and just settled for a higher income tax rate.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparebulb View Post
    Anyone who supports a VAT tax can go $#@! themselves.

    Does Rand?????
    Last edited by TommyJeff; 11-15-2015 at 08:27 PM.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaftFan View Post
    It seemed to be a limited version. Don't count me as an expert, I don't see where it adds to every level of production.

    Personally, I would have left out the business tax and just settled for a higher income tax rate.
    Thank you. I will take a closer look at this tax plan. I am not an expert either. Hopefully Rand can explain this possible situation.

    But, if there is a 'limited VAT' in this plan(or any plan, talking in more of a theoretical perspective). Couldnt the rates of this 'VAT' be increased at a future date, causing a bigger problem on a tax most people cant 'see'?

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyJeff View Post
    if so, this is very scary and a horrible idea.
    Why?

    VAT is one of the most efficient forms of taxation.

    It eliminates most of the administrative and compliance costs associated with the income tax.
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

    -H. L. Mencken

  8. #7

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    So where is the added value?

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Why?

    VAT is one of the most efficient forms of taxation.

    It eliminates most of the administrative and compliance costs associated with the income tax.
    huh?

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Why?

    VAT is one of the most efficient forms of taxation.

    It eliminates most of the administrative and compliance costs associated with the income tax.

    A consumption tax is the best tax in virtually every respect. It creates the fewest distortions

    His proposal would require a 2/3rd vote to raise it.

    The problem with a VAT is that it makes people drool uncontrollably at just the mention of it. Look at how angry people at just the mention of it. He probably should have just proposed a sales tax instead, but a sales tax is hard sale too.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    So where is the added value?
    Nowhere for the consumer. The net result is simply higher tax rate. Think how affordable the affordable health care is,

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Nowhere for the consumer. The net result is simply higher tax rate. Think how affordable the affordable health care is,
    So they call it Value Added just to confuse us like the PATRIOT act confuses.

  13. #12

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    I guess I'm not voting then. Are you $#@!ting me? I never would have thought he was capable of such a thing. Adding a new tax they can jack the rates up on? They don't take enough of our money?

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    So they call it Value Added just to confuse us like the PATRIOT act confuses.
    yep, and the Affordable Care Act, and Affirmative Action....
    It is a kind of sick little joke too I bet.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by navy-vet View Post
    yep, and the Affordable Care Act, and Affirmative Action....
    It is a kind of sick little joke too I bet.
    Well, I understand that kind of stupidity started in Europe. I guess those folks want the U.S. to be just like Europe. What a shame they can't let us be the last bastion of liberty left in this world.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Well, I understand that kind of stupidity started in Europe. I guess those folks want the U.S. to be just like Europe. What a shame they can't let us be the last bastion of liberty left in this world.
    Singapore, Hong Kong, and Switzerland are all far more economically free than the US and spend far less and they all have VATs.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
    I guess I'm not voting then. Are you $#@!ting me? I never would have thought he was capable of such a thing. Adding a new tax they can jack the rates up on? They don't take enough of our money?
    It eliminates payroll taxes and corporate taxes. Why aren't you worried about those taxes being "jacked up."
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 11-15-2015 at 09:05 PM.

  17. #16

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    Even wikipedia states VAT is the same as GST:

    A value-added tax (VAT) or general sales tax (GST) is a form of consumption tax. From the perspective of the buyer, it is a tax on the purchase price
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    It eliminates payroll taxes and corporate taxes. Why aren't you worried about those taxes being "jacked up."
    It eliminates them for now. They would come back, and we would have a shiny new sales tax to go with them. No thanks.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
    It eliminates them for now. They would come back, and we would have a shiny new sales tax to go with them. No thanks.
    Oh obviously, they would come back. We all know how often the federal government raises taxes. Voters love 'em. It is such a frequent occurrence. The last tax hike was 22 years ago and it lead to the first Republican controlled house in 40 years.

    The US is ranked 11 in the Heritage Economic Freedom Ranking. ALL 11 countries ahead of the US have VATs.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyJeff View Post
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog...oposing-a-vat/

    Can anyone confirm this? does Rand Paul's tax plan include a VAT Tax? if so, this is very scary and a horrible idea. how can he justify this?
    But with Rand's plan if you raise the corporate tax you also have to raise the personal tax and by 3/5 vote of congress, which makes it much more difficult to raise the rate...

    Rand Paul 2016 for Peace

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Oh obviously, they would come back. We all know how often the federal government raises taxes. Voters love 'em. It is such a frequent occurrence. The last tax hike was 22 years ago and it lead to the first Republican controlled house in 40 years.

    The US is ranked 11 in the Heritage Economic Freedom Ranking. ALL 11 countries ahead of the US have VATs.
    Oh, well that's a relief. The Heritage Economic Freedom Ranking means the world to me. Let's have it then! I'm always excited to find new ways I can support my government and make sure they get enough revenue.

  22. #21

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    Keep in mind in most of the countries VAT is about 20%. Let it sink - 20% Federal Sales Tax.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Keep in mind in most of the countries VAT is about 20%. Let it sink - 20% Federal Sales Tax.
    And those countries aren't the policemen of the world. They are, in fact, subsidized by the policemen of the world.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
    Oh, well that's a relief. The Heritage Economic Freedom Ranking means the world to me. Let's have it then! I'm always exciting to find new ways I can support my government and make sure they get enough revenue.
    His plan leads to much less revenue. How do you not know that and have such strong opinion?

    So if he proposed purely a national sales and got rid of every other tax, would you oppose that too? I guess you must because it is a new tax.

    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Keep in mind in most of the countries VAT is about 20%. Let it sink - 20% Federal Sales Tax.
    The Fair Tax that Gary Johnson and John Stossel endorse is a 23% sales tax. That would be my ideal but it will never pass.
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 11-15-2015 at 09:34 PM.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    huh?
    1. VAT is largely self-policing (= fewer IRS goons = smaller IRS budget). At each stage of production, each firm collects tax from its customers and pays tax to its suppliers, and remits the difference to the government. Suppose a firm wanted to evade by failing to report a sale (i.e. keeps the tax on that sale for itself, rather than sending it along to the government). That's not going to work, because the counterparty to that sale is going to report the sale, so the figures sent into the government by the two firms won't match, and the evader will be easily caught. Why will the counterparty report the sale? Because that reduces his own tax liability. Hence, self-policing.

    2. The mere fact that the government deals with businesses rather than individuals (lots more of latter than former) makes for lower administrative costs.

    3. Much of the administrative burden is shifted onto business; private enterprises (profit motive) will tend to find ways of doing it more cheaply than government.

    4. As for compliance costs, it's altogether simpler than the income tax and - again - would affect far fewer people (H&R Block, however, will not be pleased).
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

    -H. L. Mencken

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparebulb View Post
    Anyone who supports a VAT tax can go $#@! themselves.
    His father said he would prefer VAT over our current system as well. The only reason he didn't push the Fairtax was that he didn't think it ensured elimination of the income tax as a prerequisite.

    I recall him pointing out that you can avoid a VAT tax; and that it helps promote saving over spending.

  27. #26

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    Not a fan of VAT, even with its advantages over other forms of taxation in terms of market disruptions. Sales taxes are easier to evade than VAT's. Since I buy quite a lot of my things online, I rarely pay sales tax in my state. Food and clothing are untaxed here, and those are the only two things that I commonly don't buy online. And all of the countries that have VAT's also tend to have progressive income taxes as well. The VAT is rarely instead of progressive incomes taxes, and most often in addition to them.

    I like Ron Paul's view on the income tax, it should be flat, really flat, as in zero. And we shouldn't replace it with anything. I understand that Rand has to make the budget work on paper, but I hope that is all it is.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    1. VAT is largely self-policing (= fewer IRS goons = smaller IRS budget). At each stage of production, each firm collects tax from its customers and pays tax to its suppliers, and remits the difference to the government. Suppose a firm wanted to evade by failing to report a sale (i.e. keeps the tax on that sale for itself, rather than sending it along to the government). That's not going to work, because the counterparty to that sale is going to report the sale, so the figures sent into the government by the two firms won't match, and the evader will be easily caught. Why will the counterparty report the sale? Because that reduces his own tax liability. Hence, self-policing.

    2. The mere fact that the government deals with businesses rather than individuals (lots more of latter than former) makes for lower administrative costs.

    3. Much of the administrative burden is shifted onto business. This is good, because private enterprises (profit motive) will tend to find ways of doing it more cheaply than government.

    4. As for compliance costs, it's altogether simpler than the income tax and - again - would affect far fewer people (H&R Block, however, will not be pleased).
    You are engaging in deception. From the end user perspective the internal mechanics of VAT are not relevant. It is no different than the sales tax.

    The amount of scrutiny businesses are going to be subjected to will increase, as government will have the ability to track closely the entire manufacturing process. Not sure how this will result in lower overhead and fewer bureaucrats?

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    You are engaging in deception. From the end user perspective the internal mechanics of VAT are not relevant.
    They are if the end user wants to reduce government spending.

    It is no different than the sales tax.
    From the end user perspective, that's right.

    And?

    The amount of scrutiny businesses are going to be subjected to will increase, as government will have the ability to track closely the entire manufacturing process. Not sure how this will result in lower overhead and fewer bureaucrats?
    See point #1 in my last post.
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

    -H. L. Mencken

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    His plan leads to much less revenue. How do you not know that and have such strong opinion?

    So if he proposed purely a national sales and got rid of every other tax, would you oppose that too? I guess you must because it is a new tax.
    I will always oppose every tax. If he were to propose a national sales tax on the condition that the 16th amendment was repealed first, then I wouldn't bitch about it.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    1. VAT is largely self-policing (= fewer IRS goons = smaller IRS budget). At each stage of production, each firm collects tax from its customers and pays tax to its suppliers, and remits the difference to the government. Suppose a firm wanted to evade by failing to report a sale (i.e. keeps the tax on that sale for itself, rather than sending it along to the government). That's not going to work, because the counterparty to that sale is going to report the sale, so the figures sent into the government by the two firms won't match, and the evader will be easily caught. Why will the counterparty report the sale? Because that reduces his own tax liability. Hence, self-policing.
    Sounds like a system full of black market opportunities.

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