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Thread: Many Say High Deductibles Make Their Health Law Insurance All but Useless

  1. #1

    Many Say High Deductibles Make Their Health Law Insurance All but Useless

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/15/us...t-useless.html


    http://nyti.ms/1kViD6R
    POLITICS
    Many Say High Deductibles Make Their Health Law
    Insurance All but Useless
    By ROBERT PEAR NOV. 14, 2015
    WASHINGTON — Obama administration officials, urging people to sign up for health insurance under the
    Affordable Care Act, have trumpeted the low premiums available on the law’s new marketplaces.
    But for many consumers, the sticker shock is coming not on the front end, when they purchase the plans,
    but on the back end when they get sick: sky-high deductibles that are leaving some newly insured feeling
    nearly as vulnerable as they were before they had coverage.
    “The deductible, $3,000 a year, makes it impossible to actually go to the doctor,” said David R. Reines,
    60, of Jefferson Township, N.J., a former hardware salesman with chronic knee pain. “We have insurance,
    but can’t afford to use it.”
    In many states, more than half the plans offered for sale through HealthCare.gov, the federal online
    marketplace, have a deductible of $3,000 or more, a New York Times review has found. Those deductibles
    are causing concern among Democrats — and some Republican detractors of the health law, who once
    pushed high-deductible health plans in the belief that consumers would be more cost-conscious if they had
    more of a financial stake or skin in the game.
    “We could not afford the deductible,” said Kevin Fanning, 59, who lives in North Texas, near Wichita
    Falls. “Basically I was paying for insurance I could not afford to use.”
    He dropped his policy.
    As the health care law enters its third annual open enrollment period, premiums and subsidies have
    been one of the administration’s main selling points.
    “Most Americans will find an option that costs less than $75 a month,” President Obama said.
    Sylvia Mathews Burwell, the secretary of health and human services, issued a report analyzing premiums
    in the 38 states that use HealthCare.gov. “Eight out of 10 returning consumers will be able to buy a plan with
    premiums less than $100 a month after tax credits,” she said.
    But in interviews, a number of consumers made it clear that premiums were only one side of the
    affordability equation.
    “Our deductible is so high, we practically pay for all of our medical expenses out of pocket,” said Wendy
    Kaplan, 50, of Evanston, Ill. “So our policy is really there for emergencies only, and basic wellness
    appointments.”
    Her family of four pays premiums of $1,200 a month for coverage with an annual deductible of $12,700.
    In Miami, the median deductible, according to HealthCare.gov, is $5,000. (Half of the plans are above
    the median, and half below it.) In Jackson, Miss., the comparable figure is $5,500. In Chicago, the median
    deductible is $3,400. In Phoenix, it is $4,000; in Houston and Des Moines, $3,000.
    Ms. Burwell said the administration had “seen high levels of satisfaction with the marketplace.”
    And the marketplaces do vary. In Newark, some plans have no deductible, although the median
    deductible is $2,000, according to HealthCare.gov.
    Health officials and insurance counselors cite several mitigating factors. All plans must cover preventive
    services like mammograms and colonoscopies without a deductible or co-payment. Some plans may help pay
    for some items, like generic drugs or visits to a primary care doctor, before patients have met the deductible.
    Under the Affordable Care Act, health plans must have an overall limit on out-of-pocket costs, to protect
    people with serious illness against financial ruin.
    In addition, people with particularly low incomes can obtain discounts known as cost-sharing
    reductions, which lower their deductibles and other out-of-pocket costs if they choose midlevel silver plans.
    Consumer advocates say this assistance makes insurance a good bargain for people with annual incomes
    from 100 percent to 250 percent of the poverty level ($11,770 to $29,425 for an individual).
    To those worried about high out-of-pocket costs, Dave Chandra, a policy analyst at the liberal-leaning
    Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, has some advice: “Everyone should come back to the marketplace and
    shop. You may get a better deal.”
    But for many consumers, the frustration is real, as is the financial strain. In employer-sponsored health
    plans, deductibles have also been rising as companies shift costs to workers. Still, the average annual
    deductible in employer plans, $1,320 for individual coverage according to the Kaiser Family Foundation, is
    considerably less than the deductibles in many marketplace plans.
    The Internal Revenue Service defines a high-deductible health plan as one with an annual deductible of
    at least $1,300 for individual coverage or $2,600 for family coverage.
    Sara Rosenbaum, a professor of health law and policy at George Washington University who supports
    the health law, said the rising deductibles were part of a trend that she described as the “degradation of
    health insurance.”
    Insurers, she said, “designed plans with a hefty use of deductibles and cost-sharing in order to hold down
    premiums” for low- and moderate-income consumers shopping in the public marketplaces.
    But the deductibles are so high they may be scaring away some consumers.
    Alexis C. Phillips, 29, of Houston, is the kind of consumer federal officials would like to enroll this fall.
    But after reviewing the available plans, she said, she concluded: “The deductibles are ridiculously high. I will
    never be able to go over the deductible unless something catastrophic happened to me. I’m better off not
    purchasing that insurance and saving the money in case something bad happens.”
    People who go without insurance next year may be subject to a penalty of $695 or about 2.5 percent of
    their household income, whichever is greater.
    Karin Rosner, a 45-year-old commercial freelance writer who lives in the Bronx, pays about $300 a
    month, after a subsidy, for a silver insurance plan with a $1,750 deductible and a limit of $4,000 a year on
    out-of-pocket expenses.
    She is extremely nearsighted and has an eye condition that puts her at risk for a detached retina, but has
    put off visits to a retina specialist because, she said, she would have to pay the entire cost out of pocket.
    “While my premiums are affordable, the out-of-pocket expenses required to meet the deductible are
    not,” said Ms. Rosner, who makes about $30,000 a year.
    Mr. Fanning, the North Texan, said he and his wife had a policy with a monthly premium of about $500
    and an annual deductible of about $10,000 after taking account of financial assistance. Their income is about
    $32,000 a year.
    The Fannings dropped the policy in July after he had a one-night hospital stay and she had tests for
    kidney problems, and the bills started to roll in.
    Josie Gibb of Albuquerque pays about $400 a month in premiums, after subsidies, for a silver-level
    insurance plan with a deductible of $6,000. “The deductible,” she said, “is so high that I have to pay for
    everything all year — visits with a gynecologist, a dermatologist, all blood work, all tests. It’s really just a
    catastrophic policy.”
    Another consumer, Anne Cornwell of Chattanooga, Tenn., said she was excited when Congress passed
    the Affordable Care Act because she had been uninsured for several years. She is glad that she and her
    husband now have insurance, because he has had tonsil cancer, heart problems and kidney stones this year.
    But with a $10,000 deductible, it has still not been easy.
    “When they said affordable, I thought they really meant affordable,” she said.
    Follow the New York Times’s politics and Washington coverage on Facebook and Twitter, and sign up for the
    First Draft politics newsletter.
    A version of this article appears in print on November 15, 2015, on page A22 of the New York edition with the headline: Many Say High
    Deductibles Make Their Health Law Insurance All but Useless .
    © 2015 The New York Times Company



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  3. #2
    Not just the deductibles, the co-insurance can be even worse and seems to be common in almost every plan I see.

    So now you have insurance and hit your deductible and then keep on paying. Where's the plan that I wanted to keep that didn't have any of this mess??
    Last edited by kpitcher; 11-15-2015 at 01:59 AM.
    “…let us teach them that all who draw breath are of equal worth, and that those who seek to press heel upon the throat of liberty, will fall to the cry of FREEDOM!!!” – Spartacus, War of the Damned

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  4. #3
    A lot of "medical care" these days is just a sales pitch for pills, anyway.

    So even if you manage to pony up the outrageous sums of money to participate in this system, you don't even get any genuine service. Take care of yourself, be your own primary physician, and if you genuinely need a medical professional, seek one abroad.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    A lot of "medical care" these days is just a sales pitch for pills, anyway.

    So even if you manage to pony up the outrageous sums of money to participate in this system, you don't even get any genuine service. Take care of yourself, be your own primary physician, and if you genuinely need a medical professional, seek one abroad.
    Agreed.

    Many of my friends go to Mexico for any dental or real medical needs.
    There is no spoon.

  6. #5
    xxxxx
    Last edited by Voluntarist; 07-16-2018 at 06:59 PM.
    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you post to the internet can and will be used to humiliate you.

  7. #6
    Savings can be tricky because of taxation. Government taxes income on money in savings, unless it is on long-term loan to the bank in the form of CDs or IRAs. In that case, i don't really have access to the money without penalty. So the option is to have a regular savings account that pays about .03 a quarter on savings, while the principal loses value.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    Savings can be tricky because of taxation. Government taxes income on money in savings, unless it is on long-term loan to the bank in the form of CDs or IRAs. In that case, i don't really have access to the money without penalty. So the option is to have a regular savings account that pays about .03 a quarter on savings, while the principal loses value.
    Savings in the form of taxable FRN's doesn't make sense today, in fact saving in any tractable currency doesn't make sense neither does investment in monitored markets.

    Antiques, gems, PM's even toilet paper makes more sense.....

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    Savings can be tricky because of taxation. Government taxes income on money in savings, unless it is on long-term loan to the bank in the form of CDs or IRAs. In that case, i don't really have access to the money without penalty. So the option is to have a regular savings account that pays about .03 a quarter on savings, while the principal loses value.
    HSA contributions are pre-tax. And you can use it for any medical / dental related expenses. Having one of those combined with a catastrophic policy with a super high deductible is the best way to go for us.



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  11. #9
    Well, ya ain't supposed to actually try to use it. DUH!

  12. #10
    If there was a zero deductable, then the insurance company of course pays for everything. That leads to people demanding the use of more medical services since it costs them nothing out of pocket. That can lead to unnecessary treatments and costs making it even more expensive for everybody. If your child has a cough, you go to the doctor and get a prescription medicine instead of hitting the corner drugstore for an over- the- counter remedy. Instead of $10 it costs a couple hundred. These higher costs would then be passed along with higher costs for the insurance. When something is free or below market cost, you get over-consumption of it.

    and Republican detractors of the health law, who once pushed high-deductible health plans in the belief that consumers would be more cost-conscious if they had more of a financial stake or skin in the game.
    But if you don't want to have to pay any of your medical costs we could offer free national medical insurance (paid out of your taxes of course).
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 11-15-2015 at 03:40 PM.

  13. #11
    //
    Last edited by specsaregood; 05-22-2016 at 12:02 AM.

  14. #12
    Before ACA, I had a high-deductible plan for emergencies. I paid 'out of pocket' for any routine visits and prescriptions.

    With ACA, that plan was dropped. I replaced it with the least expensive option I could find; my new plan cost me over twice as much with surprisingly similar deductibles.

    Last year, I was notified by the marketplace that my plan (which already sucked) would be cancelled. I would need to select another plan, which, of course, had a higher premium with similarly crappy deductibles.

    A month ago, I receive notice that my plan would again be cancelled. I searched the marketplace for comparable plans, and, you guessed it, the price is going up again...

    So, I dropped my coverage and went with a Christian cost-sharing program which is, thankfully, still allowed without threat of ACA penalties. It costs me more than my original plan years ago and the "coverage" is far worse, but at least I feel good about the money I effectively give away each month.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    A lot of "medical care" these days is just a sales pitch for pills, anyway.

    So even if you manage to pony up the outrageous sums of money to participate in this system, you don't even get any genuine service. Take care of yourself, be your own primary physician, and if you genuinely need a medical professional, seek one abroad.
    There have been more than a couple news stories thrown around on this site where people have been basically kidnapped for refusing medical care.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  16. #14
    H/T KChiefs

    Meet The Family That Just Spent Half Its Annual Income Paying For Obamacare

    Not a week passes without some incremental revelation showing precisely what happens when Congress passes a bill just to see what's in it.



    Well, since the passage of the Affordable Care Act, also known as the Obamacare tax, we have watched in horror as shocker after shocker are revealed.

    Some examples:

    In Latest Obamacare Fiasco, Most Low-Income Workers Can't Afford "Affordable Care Act"
    The Stunning "Explanation" An Insurance Company Just Used To Boost Health Premiums By 60%
    Your Health Insurance Premiums Are About To Go Through The Roof -The Stunning Reason Why
    Obama Promised Healthcare Premiums Would Fall $2,500 Per Family; They Have Climbed $4,865
    Largest Health Insurer On Colorado Exchange Abruptly Collapses
    Co-Op Insurers Across America Are Collapsing, And Now There Is Fraud
    "$19,000 Premiums, Up 4x Since Passage": The 'Crippling Effect' Of Obamacare On The Middle Class
    Now we can add one more thing that "was in it": soaring deductibles, which give the fake impression of contained, low all-in costs... until one actually needs expensive medial help (and these days there is no other kind).

    The latest expose against Obamacare comes not from its usual nemesis, but the hard-left NYT, suggesting that even the ideological supporters of Obama's "crowning achievement" are losing faith. To wit:

    Obama administration officials, urging people to sign up for health insurance under the Affordable Care Act, have trumpeted the low premiums available on the law’s new marketplaces.

    But for many consumers, the sticker shock is coming not on the front end, when they purchase the plans, but on the back end when they get sick: sky-high deductibles that are leaving some newly insured feeling nearly as vulnerable as they were before they had coverage.

    “The deductible, $3,000 a year, makes it impossible to actually go to the doctor,” said David R. Reines, 60, of Jefferson Township, N.J., a former hardware salesman with chronic knee pain. “We have insurance, but can’t afford to use it.”

    In many states, more than half the plans offered for sale through HealthCare.gov, the federal online marketplace, have a deductible of $3,000 or more, a New York Times review has found. Those deductibles are causing concern among Democrats — and some Republican detractors of the health law, who once pushed high-deductible health plans in the belief that consumers would be more cost-conscious if they had more of a financial stake or skin in the game.

    “We could not afford the deductible,” said Kevin Fanning, 59, who lives in North Texas, near Wichita Falls. “Basically I was paying for insurance I could not afford to use.” He dropped his policy.
    In other words, Obamacare's "affordable care" is affordable, as long as one doesn't actually have to use it!

    Here is the damage when one does:

    In Miami, the median deductible, according to HealthCare.gov, is $5,000.
    In Jackson, Miss., the comparable figure is $5,500.
    In Chicago, the median deductible is $3,400.
    In Phoenix, it is $4,000;
    In Houston and Des Moines, $3,000.
    Considering far more than half the US population has less than $1,000 in savings, there are quite literally tens of millions of people who are one ER visit away from the poor house. And they are unhappy. But at least the liberal think tanks have words of advice:

    To those worried about high out-of-pocket costs, Dave Chandra, a policy analyst at the liberal-leaning Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, has some advice: “Everyone should come back to the marketplace and shop. You may get a better deal.”
    But you almost certainly won't, because the whole structuring of Obamacare was to lower future costs at the expense of a surge in deductible payments, aka the oldest trick in the insurance book. And America fell for it.

    So here is what happens when one does find out what is in the "affordable" care law, after it was passed.

    Meet Mr. Fanning, from North Texas, who said he and his wife had a policy with a monthly premium of about $500 and an annual deductible of about $10,000 after taking account of financial assistance. Their income is about $32,000 a year.

    The Fannings dropped the policy in July after he had a one-night hospital stay and she had tests for kidney problems, and the bills started to roll in.
    And just like that a family of two spent half their annual income on insurance and deductibles courtesy of the "Affordable" care act.

    It gets better:

    Another consumer, Anne Cornwell of Chattanooga, Tenn., said she was excited when Congress passed the Affordable Care Act because she had been uninsured for several years. She is glad that she and her husband now have insurance, because he has had tonsil cancer, heart problems and kidney stones this year.

    But with a $10,000 deductible, it has still not been easy.
    Her conclusion: "When they said affordable, I thought they really meant affordable," she said.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-1...ying-obamacare
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  17. #15
    This whole fiasco arose out of a national focus on the wrong question. Somehow, intentionally or not, the problem with health care, as far as the public debate was concerned, became people without insurance when the REAL problem was the high cost of health care itself. So instead of focusing on what was causing high prices in health care, everyone focused on insurance, not as one of the causes of high prices, but as a solution. Of course adopting a "solution" that completely misses, and in fact inflames, the root problem does only harm. Ultimate failure was baked into the pie.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  18. #16
    And by the way, REAL insurance is supposed to pay for events that are beyond the ability of individuals to pay as a normal expense. Insurance was created to pool the risk of rare, expensive events. It was not created to pool the cost of routine, predictable events that should be within everyone's normal budget. In other words, what was once a true insurance product has been distorted by politics and crony-capitalism into something else and it makes a really bad job of it and isn't ever going to get better.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    This whole fiasco arose out of a national focus on the wrong question. Somehow, intentionally or not, the problem with health care, as far as the public debate was concerned, became people without insurance when the REAL problem was the high cost of health care itself. So instead of focusing on what was causing high prices in health care, everyone focused on insurance, not as one of the causes of high prices, but as a solution. Of course adopting a "solution" that completely misses, and in fact inflames, the root problem does only harm. Ultimate failure was baked into the pie.
    This is how the government operates. Instead addressing the root cause they try to address the latest symptoms. Cost of living increase - let's raise the minimum wage, student loans - let's provide more loans instead of not underwriting them and forcing people into enslavement, blowback from our military - let's escalate military actions instead of pulling out, lather, rinse, repeat.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is how the government operates. Instead addressing the root cause they try to address the latest symptoms. Cost of living increase - let's raise the minimum wage, student loans - let's provide more loans instead of not underwriting them and forcing people into enslavement, blowback from our military - let's escalate military actions instead of pulling out, lather, rinse, repeat.
    True
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  22. #19
    High deductibles are a good idea, but they're rendered useless because it's $#@!ing impossible to find out what price a provider is going to charge ahead of time. The result is, rather than consumers feeling empowered to price shop and then GO to a competitive provider, they're afraid of getting surprised by obscene bills and so they don't go to ANY provider unless it's emergency. And then they don't go until problems get so serious that they have no choice but to go.

    This, in turn, is not the providers' fault, it's the insurance companies. Providers can't tell patients prices because they don't know them until going through the convoluted claims submission process with the insurer.

    And so the ACA, by mandating that everyone have a "qualifying" insurance plan, makes it so that providers who try to advertise prices directly (instead of going through insurance) are at a major competitive disadvantage, as they are Out of Network and any money you spend with them won't count toward your insurance deductible.

    The ACA is a brilliant example of how government turns makes a bad problem worse.



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