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Thread: Open Borders Are an Assault on Private Property

  1. #1

    Open Borders Are an Assault on Private Property


    Open Borders Are an Assault on Private Property

    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal


    By Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.

    November 10, 2015

    This talk was delivered at the Mises Circle in Phoenix, AZ, on November 7, 2015.


    Whether we’re talking about illegal immigration from Mexico and Central America, or birthright citizenship, or the migrants coming from the Middle East and Africa, the subject of immigration has been in the news and widely discussed for months now. It is an issue fraught with potentially perilous consequences, so it is especially important for libertarians to understand it correctly. This Mises Circle, which is devoted to a consideration of where we ought to go from here, seems like an opportune moment to take up this momentous question.


    I should note at the outset that in searching for the correct answer to this vexing problem I do not seek to claim originality. To the contrary, I draw much of what follows from two of the people whose work is indispensable to a proper understanding of the free society: Murray N. Rothbard and Hans-Hermann Hoppe.

    Some libertarians have assumed that the correct libertarian position on immigration must be “open borders,” or the completely unrestricted movement of people. Superficially, this appears correct: surely we believe in letting people go wherever they like!

    But hold on a minute. Think about “freedom of speech,” another principle people associate with libertarians.

    Do we really believe in freedom of speech as an abstract principle? That would mean I have the right to yell all during a movie, or the right to disrupt a Church service, or the right to enter your home and shout obscenities at you.


    What we believe in are private property rights. No one has “freedom of speech” on my property, since I set the rules, and in the last resort I can expel someone. He can say whatever he likes on his own property, and on the property of anyone who cares to listen to him, but not on mine.


    The same principle holds for freedom of movement. Libertarians do not believe in any such principle in the abstract. I do not have the right to wander into your house, or into your gated community, or into Disneyworld, or onto your private beach, or onto Jay-Z ‘s private island. As with “freedom of speech,” private property is the relevant factor here. I can move onto any property I myself own or whose owner wishes to have me. I cannot simply go wherever I like.


    Now if all the parcels of land in the whole world were privately owned, the solution to the so-called immigration problem would be evident. In fact, it might be more accurate to say that there would be no immigration problem in the first place. Everyone moving somewhere new would have to have the consent of the owner of that place.


    When the state and its so-called public property enter the picture, though, things become murky, and it takes extra effort to uncover the proper libertarian position. I’d like to try to do that today.


    Shortly before his death, Murray Rothbard published an article called “Nations by Consent: Decomposing the Nation State.” He had begun rethinking the assumption that libertarianism committed us to open borders.


    He noted, for instance, the large number of ethnic Russians whom Stalin settled in Estonia. This was not done so that Baltic people could enjoy the fruits of diversity. It never is. It was done in an attempt to destroy an existing culture, and in the process to make a people more docile and less likely to cause problems for the Soviet empire.


    Murray wondered: does libertarianism require me to support this, much less to celebrate it? Or might there be more to the immigration question after all?


    And here Murray posed the problem just as I have: in a fully private-property society, people would have to be invited onto whatever property they traveled through or settled on.


    If every piece of land in a country were owned by some person, group, or corporation, this would mean that no person could enter unless invited to enter and allowed to rent or purchase property. A totally privatized country would be as closed as the particular property owners desire. It seems clear, then, that the regime of open borders that exists de facto in the U.S. amd Western Europe really amounts to a compulsory opening by the central state, the state in charge of all streets and public land areas, and does not genuinely reflect the wishes of the proprietors.


    In the current situation, on the other hand, immigrants have access to public roads, public transportation, public buildings, and so on. Combine this with the state’s other curtailments of private property rights, and the result is artificial demographic shifts that would not occur in a free market. Property owners are forced to associate and do business with individuals they might otherwise avoid.


    “Commercial property owners such as stores, hotels, and restaurants are no longer free to exclude or restrict access as they see fit,” writes Hans. “Employers can no longer hire or fire who they wish. In the housing market, landlords are no longer free to exclude unwanted tenants. Furthermore, restrictive covenants are compelled to accept members and actions in violation of their very own rules and regulations.”


    Hans continues:

    By admitting someone onto its territory, the state also permits this person to proceed on public roads and lands to every domestic resident’s doorsteps, to make use of all public facilities and services (such as hospitals and schools), and to access every commercial establishment, employment, and residential housing, protected by a multitude of nondiscrimination laws.

    It is rather unfashionable to express concern for the rights of property owners, but whether the principle is popular or not, a transaction between two people should not occur unless both of those people want it to. This is the very core of libertarian principle.

    In order to make sense of all this and reach the appropriate libertarian conclusion, we have to look more closely at what public property really is and who, if anyone, can be said to be its true owner. Hans has devoted some of his own work to precisely this question. There are two positions we must reject: that public property is owned by the government, or that public property is unowned, and is therefore comparable to land in the state of nature, before individual property titles to particular parcels of land have been established.

    Certainly we cannot say public property is owned by the government, since government may not legitimately own anything. Government acquires its property by force, usually via the intermediary of taxation. A libertarian cannot accept that kind of property acquisition as morally legitimate, since it involves the initiation of force (the extraction of tax dollars) on innocent people. Hence government’s pretended property titles are illegitimate.

    But neither can we say that public property is unowned. Property in the possession of a thief is not unowned, even if at the moment it does not happen to be held by the rightful owner. The same goes for so-called public property. It was purchased and developed by means of money seized from the taxpayers. They are the true owners.

    (This, incidentally, was the correct way to approach de-socialization in the former communist regimes of eastern Europe. All those industries were the property of the people who had been looted to build them, and those people should have received shares in proportion to their contribution, to the extent it could have been determined.)

    In an anarcho-capitalist world, with all property privately owned, “immigration” would be up to each individual property owner to decide. Right now, on the other hand, immigration decisions are made by a central authority, with the wishes of property owners completely disregarded. The correct way to proceed, therefore, is to decentralize decision-making on immigration to the lowest possible level, so that we approach ever more closely the proper libertarian position, in which individual property owners consent to the various movements of peoples.

    Ralph Raico, our great libertarian historian, once wrote:

    Free immigration would appear to be in a different category from other policy decisions, in that its consequences permanently and radically alter the very composition of the democratic political body that makes those decisions. In fact, the liberal order, where and to the degree that it exists, is the product of a highly complex cultural development. One wonders, for instance, what would become of the liberal society of Switzerland under a regime of “open borders.”

    Switzerland is in fact an interesting example. Before the European Union got involved, the immigration policy of Switzerland approached the kind of system we are describing here. In Switzerland, localities decided on immigration, and immigrants or their employers had to pay to admit a prospective migrant. In this way, residents could better ensure that their communities would be populated by people who would add value and who would not stick them with the bill for a laundry list of “benefits.”


    Obviously, in a pure open borders system, the Western welfare states would simply be overrun by foreigners seeking tax dollars. As libertarians, we should of course celebrate the demise of the welfare state. But to expect a sudden devotion to laissez faire to be the likely outcome of a collapse in the welfare state is to indulge in naďveté of an especially preposterous kind.


    Can we conclude that an immigrant should be considered “invited” by the mere fact that he has been hired by an employer? No, says Hans, because the employer does not assume the full cost associated with his new employee. The employer partially externalizes the costs of that employee on the taxpaying public:


    Equipped with a work permit, the immigrant is allowed to make free use of every public facility: roads, parks, hospitals, schools, and no landlord, businessman, or private associate is permitted to discriminate against him as regards housing, employment, accommodation, and association. That is, the immigrant comes invited with a substantial fringe benefits package paid for not (or only partially) by the immigrant employer (who allegedly has extended the invitation), but by other domestic proprietors as taxpayers who had no say in the invitation whatsoever.

    These migrations, in short, are not market outcomes. They would not occur on a free market. What we are witnessing are examples of subsidized movement. Libertarians defending these mass migrations as if they were market phenomena are only helping to discredit and undermine the true free market.

    Moreover, as Hans points out, the “free immigration” position is not analogous to free trade, as some libertarians have erroneously claimed. In the case of goods being traded from one place to another, there is always and necessarily a willing recipient. The same is not true for “free immigration.”

    To be sure, it is fashionable in the US to laugh at words of caution about mass immigration. Why, people made predictions about previous waves of immigration, we’re told, and we all know those didn’t come true.

    Now for one thing, those waves were all followed by swift and substantial immigration reductions, during which time society adapted to these pre-welfare state population movements. There is virtually no prospect of any such reductions today. For another, it is a fallacy to claim that because some people incorrectly predicted a particular outcome at a particular time, therefore that outcome is impossible, and anyone issuing words of caution about it is a contemptible fool.


    The fact is, politically enforced multiculturalism has an exceptionally poor track record. The 20th century affords failure after predictable failure. Whether it’s Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, the Soviet Union, or Pakistan and Bangladesh, or Malaysia and Singapore, or the countless places with ethnic and religious divides that have not yet been resolved to this day, the evidence suggests something rather different from the tale of universal brotherhood that is such a staple of leftist folklore.


    No doubt some of the new arrivals will be perfectly decent people, despite the US government’s lack of interest in encouraging immigration among the skilled and capable. But some will not. The three great crime waves in US history – which began in 1850, 1900, and 1960 – coincided with periods of mass immigration.


    Crime isn’t the only reason people may legitimately wish to resist mass immigration. If four million Americans showed up in Singapore, that country’s culture and society would be changed forever. And no, it is not true that libertarianism would in that case require the people of Singapore to shrug their shoulders and say it was nice having our society while it lasted but all good things must come to an end. No one in Singapore would want that outcome, and in a free society, they would actively prevent it.


    In other words, it’s bad enough we have to be looted, spied on, and kicked around by the state. Should we also have to pay for the privilege of cultural destructionism, an outcome the vast majority of the state’s taxpaying subjects do not want and would actively prevent if they lived in a free society and were allowed to do so?


    The very cultures that the incoming migrants are said to enrich us with could not have developed had they been constantly bombarded with waves of immigration by peoples of radically different cultures. So the multicultural argument doesn’t even make sense.


    It is impossible to believe that the U.S. or Europe will be a freer place after several more decades of uninterrupted mass immigration. Given the immigration patterns that the US and EU governments encourage, the long-term result will be to make the constituencies for continued government growth so large as to be practically unstoppable. Open-borders libertarians active at that time will scratch their heads and claim not to understand why their promotion of free markets is having so little success. Everybody else will know the answer.


    The Best of Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.


    Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr. [send him mail], former editorial assistant to Ludwig von Mises and congressional chief of staff to Ron Paul, is founder and chairman of the Mises Institute, executor for the estate of Murray N. Rothbard, and editor of LewRockwell.com. His most recent book is Against the State: an Anarcho-Capitalist Manifesto. Follow him on Facebook and Twitter.



    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/11/...vate-property/



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  3. #2
    What the hell has gotten into him?
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    What the hell has gotten into him?
    Anti-state, anti-war, pro-market.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    What the hell has gotten into him?
    Logic and reason as well as the drive for self preservation.

    He understand that mass immigration is not compatible with Liberty when invading cultures will subvert and replace the culture of a nation.

  6. #5
    Does libertarian philosophy have to deal with government owned land, or does government owned land have to deal with libertarian philosophy? It seems the right have made their stand. I don't see what truth can be gleaned in a false reality. A cowards reality if you will.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by P3ter_Griffin View Post
    Does libertarian philosophy have to deal with government owned land, or does government owned land have to deal with libertarian philosophy? It seems the right have made their stand. I don't see what truth can be gleaned in a false reality. A cowards reality if you will.
    Everything government has, has been stolen.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Everything government has, has been stolen.
    Yes, including the guns and money to pay wages to enforce immigration laws. How is that 'illigitimacy' dealt with?

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by P3ter_Griffin View Post
    Yes, including the guns and money to pay wages to enforce immigration laws. How is that 'illigitimacy' dealt with?
    expensively



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  11. #9
    I suppose we should just give America back to the Natives, French, and Mexicans then, right, because American ownership was achieved through illegitimate means?

    No, I respect the reality of the ability to use force to gain ownership of property. My purpose is to eliminate the ability to do so with a government funded by coercive means. And unfortunately it comes at a time that the right libertarians are embracing utilizing a government funded by coercive means.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by P3ter_Griffin View Post
    No, I respect the reality of the ability to use force to gain ownership of property. My purpose is to eliminate the ability to do so with a government funded by coercive means.
    Radical in the sense of being in total, root-and-branch opposition to the existing political system and to the State itself. Radical in the sense of having integrated intellectual opposition to the State with a gut hatred of its pervasive and organized system of crime and injustice. Radical in the sense of a deep commitment to the spirit of liberty and anti-statism that integrates reason and emotion, heart and soul. - M. Rothbard

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Cabal View Post
    You will have to explain better what does not compute. I don't know if it is proper use of the term but I consider myself a Darwinist, where coercive funding prevents evolution. If that shines any light on the matter for you.

    Eta: reality may be a better word than evolution. But by preventing reality evolution is also prevented.
    Last edited by P3ter_Griffin; 11-11-2015 at 06:58 PM.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by P3ter_Griffin View Post
    I suppose we should just give America back to the Natives, French, and Mexicans then, right, because American ownership was achieved through illegitimate means?

    No, I respect the reality of the ability to use force to gain ownership of property. My purpose is to eliminate the ability to do so with a government funded by coercive means. And unfortunately it comes at a time that the right libertarians are embracing utilizing a government funded by coercive means.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cabal View Post
    My apologies. I understand what you meant now. I mean I do not seek to eliminate the ability to do so, but to eliminate the ability to do so with a government funded by coercive means.

  15. #13
    Closed borders are an assault on private property. The argument that the state has the authority to determine who goes where and when means the state is the owner of the property whose access to it is restricting. In other words, closed borders means the state thinks it owns your property, not you. This should be no surprise since the state makes this claim in other ways too, such as forcing you to pay perpetual rent in the form of "property taxes."

    An argument based off accepting this in any degree is not a libertarian argument because it take state injustice and normalizes it. This is the problem with Lew's argument that open borders are anti-libertarian because they allow immigrants to use public utilities they didn't "pay" for. No one paid for them! Paid implies a voluntary transaction, the state builds roads and parks through regularized theft. Since no one paid for it, it is no one's property and thus no one's property rights are violated.

    His argument that mass migration is not a market outcome is fallacious too. All outcomes, even socialist ones, are market outcomes. All people's choices and actions are influenced by market outcomes. If we were even freer you would see the personal and economic success that brings draw more immigrants here, not less, because the reasons they are coming now, greater personal freedom and wealth, would increase!

    His crime argument is even stupider. Crime increases because the state makes immigrant labor illegal, not because immigrants are more prone to crime.

    The cultural suicide argument is the weakest of all. How a Mexican lives has no bearing on how I live.

    Just goes to show that even the smartest of libertarians can be darn fools sometimes.

  16. #14
    There is some food for thought in this article. I will need to re-read it a time or two and think about it more, but I doubt I will ever fully agree with the conclusion/premise. PierzStyx raises some great points/objections.

    Defining all human rights in terms of property rights is a slippery slope. If all land is privately owned, and I do not own any, then perhaps my arguably "natural" right to travel could be reduced to zero.

    Personally I value my right to freedom of movement at least as high as any property right. Indeed, the native americans had few if any property rights over land, but they had near complete freedom of movement. Differing priorities.

    Libertarians claim to believe in natural rights. But if one really thinks about "natural" rights, ie, those that exist in nature... they are pretty much to live, to die, and hopefully to move around some in between as one sees fit. Everything else is survival (or dominance) of the fittest. In this sense, property rights would be considered a positive right ( a construct of mankind ). Creating/enforcing positive rights require placing restrictions on the freedom of others. So in my mind at least, property rights are LESS FUNDAMENTAL than the natural right to movement/travel. Thus it seems a mistake to elevate it above the right to movement/travel without some sort of balance/check. Something I haven't really seen discussed in libertarian literature...

    food for thought indeed.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Closed borders are an assault on private property. The argument that the state has the authority to determine who goes where and when means the state is the owner of the property whose access to it is restricting. In other words, closed borders means the state thinks it owns your property, not you. This should be no surprise since the state makes this claim in other ways too, such as forcing you to pay perpetual rent in the form of "property taxes."

    An argument based off accepting this in any degree is not a libertarian argument because it take state injustice and normalizes it. This is the problem with Lew's argument that open borders are anti-libertarian because they allow immigrants to use public utilities they didn't "pay" for. No one paid for them! Paid implies a voluntary transaction, the state builds roads and parks through regularized theft. Since no one paid for it, it is no one's property and thus no one's property rights are violated.

    His argument that mass migration is not a market outcome is fallacious too. All outcomes, even socialist ones, are market outcomes. All people's choices and actions are influenced by market outcomes. If we were even freer you would see the personal and economic success that brings draw more immigrants here, not less, because the reasons they are coming now, greater personal freedom and wealth, would increase!

    His crime argument is even stupider. Crime increases because the state makes immigrant labor illegal, not because immigrants are more prone to crime.

    The cultural suicide argument is the weakest of all. How a Mexican lives has no bearing on how I live.

    Just goes to show that even the smartest of libertarians can be darn fools sometimes.
    Yeah, sure, explain away the cartel crime that takes place inside of the America. No it is the strongest of the all, where they go they will bring there cultural and politics with them, how they vote will have so much bearing on you.

    Do you want a leftist goverment like Mexico?

    But hey ignore the place of culture and the value of borders, its not like that has ever taken down any group in history right?

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by P3ter_Griffin View Post
    I suppose we should just give America back to the Natives, French, and Mexicans then, right, because American ownership was achieved through illegitimate means?

    No, I respect the reality of the ability to use force to gain ownership of property. My purpose is to eliminate the ability to do so with a government funded by coercive means. And unfortunately it comes at a time that the right libertarians are embracing utilizing a government funded by coercive means.
    Give it all back to the buffaloes, wolves, prairie dogs and mastodons .......... oh wait? That won't really work either.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanSpartan View Post
    Yeah, sure, explain away the cartel crime that takes place inside of the America. No it is the strongest of the all, where they go they will bring there cultural and politics with them, how they vote will have so much bearing on you.

    Do you want a leftist goverment like Mexico?

    But hey ignore the place of culture and the value of borders, its not like that has ever taken down any group in history right?
    The "cartel crime" is owned and managed by the alphabets- get a clue.
    There is no spoon.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Give it all back to the buffaloes, wolves, prairie dogs and mastodons .......... oh wait? That won't really work either.
    Yeah I suppose, if we all just tuck tail and live in the reality our government feeds us, there is no hope. The libertarian right is trying to kill the liberty movement, I think it is becoming clear. Their philosophy is now 'partcipate!, vote!, utilize that beast we were not long ago trying to slay!'. You guys have given up. And not in a heroic and noble way, not in a last stand, but by participating with the reality government feeds you. #NotImpressed

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by P3ter_Griffin View Post
    Yeah I suppose, if we all just tuck tail and live in the reality our government feeds us, there is no hope. The libertarian right is trying to kill the liberty movement, I think it is becoming clear. Their philosophy is now 'partcipate!, vote!, utilize that beast we were not long ago trying to slay!'. You guys have given up. And not in a heroic and noble way, not in a last stand, but by participating with the reality government feeds you. #NotImpressed
    A radical libertarian believes in little to no government intervention for both personal and economic matters. A radical libertarian generally believes in one out of these two options: (1) A government that is extremely small and limited to the extent of protecting people's liberty - this view is known as Minarchism (2) No government at all, in which the private sector takes up all legitimate functions that a government would have - this view is known as Anarcho-Capitalism. Radical Libertarians tend to be strongly opposed to war, police powers, victimless crimes, foreign intervention and what they consider to be a welfare state. Radical Libertarians tend to be inspired by the Austrian school of economics, classical liberalism and 19th century individualist anarchism. Libertarian thought is individualist in nature. They try to protect both personal and economic liberty. Examples of Radical Libertarianism would be Murray Rothbard, H.L. Mencken, Ludwig Von Mises and Lysander Spooner.
    //

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by P3ter_Griffin View Post
    Yeah I suppose, if we all just tuck tail and live in the reality our government feeds us, there is no hope. The libertarian right is trying to kill the liberty movement, I think it is becoming clear. Their philosophy is now 'partcipate!, vote!, utilize that beast we were not long ago trying to slay!'. You guys have given up. And not in a heroic and noble way, not in a last stand, but by participating with the reality government feeds you. #NotImpressed
    Says the guy with the "Stand with Rand" logo and is a supporting member of the forums mission. A bit contradictory don't you think?
    * See my visitor message area for caveats related to my posting history here.
    * Also, I have effectively retired from all social media including posting here and are basically opting out of anything to do with national politics or this country on federal or state level and rather focusing locally. I may stop by from time to time to discuss philosophy on a general level related to Libertarian schools of thought and application in the real world.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by danda View Post
    Personally I value my right to freedom of movement at least as high as any property right. Indeed, the native americans had few if any property rights over land, but they had near complete freedom of movement. Differing priorities.
    Then look at other examples. Indians are a bad example in many respects: not least of which is the fact that several tribes actually did claim "group ownership" of land, in that they didn't want other tribes in their area, and moreover, many others didn't respect those claims anyway (in the form of raids). They weren't one people.

    One example which I've mentioned before, is Kowloon Walled City. It was outside the reach of the Hong Kong government, and the result was a 6.4 acre parcel of land that had 33,000 people living in it. There was obviously property right being respected there because people had their own flats and businesses. And the property right extended in three dimensions, because the place was 14 stories tall. And there was also freedom of movement, because how the hell else are you going to pack 33,000 people into that space?

    Likewise nobody had trouble getting around in other places where the state has been severely crippled or absent. I think one thing we tend to overlook is that murdering people for the slightest offenses is certainly the M.O. of the state, but it's not the default position of humanity and never has been. In other words, humans innately know that when a stranger wanders on to your property, you should assess the threat before mobilizing your army to get rid of them.

    Certain present company excepted, of course.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanSpartan View Post
    Yeah, sure, explain away the cartel crime that takes place inside of the America. No it is the strongest of the all, where they go they will bring there cultural and politics with them, how they vote will have so much bearing on you.

    Cartel crime is the easiest crime to explain. When you make something illegal that people want it doesn't end the want for that product, it just drives it into the shadows. Violence and fear become regularized because the production of that product cannot happen in the open where the natural regulatory measures of the free market would expose those violating the rights of others and eliminate them from production.

    Do you want a leftist goverment like Mexico?

    The leftist government of Mexico is not substantially any different than the leftist government of the USA, or the two socialist parties that run everything, the Democrats and Republicans.

    Libertarians who are against Mexican immigration are idiots because they are ignoring the low hanging fruit that could increase their power base dramatically. Mexicans coming to American already know the follies of socialism, they're coming to this country exactly because socialism has lead to massive failure in their countries. They know this already, they know that socialism is a failure and that capitalism, even the crippled version of it here, is better. They just need to be shown that. Libertarians, more than anyone, have the ideology and the understanding to turn this power base that is so disaffected with socialism into political success but instead of embracing it they fight against it? Stupidity.


    But hey ignore the place of culture and the value of borders, its not like that has ever taken down any group in history right?

    No, they haven't. In fact it is nativisim and closed borders that destroy countries and nations. I was just teaching my students about the fall of the Western Roman Empire today and it struck me how Rome ensured its destruction by denying the German tribes immigration. These tribes were pouring across the border, eager to become part of the Empire. They were natural sources of cheap labor, new taxes, and a reinvigorated military (Rome had been using German mercenaries for decades, but this would have turned them into Roman soldiers loyal to the Empire not their gold). And what does Rome do? They turn the military loose on them. They turn these people into their enemies, making them fight for their survival. Instead of turning them into farmers they force them to become plunderers and pillagers. It was idiocy, idiocy based on the nativist fear that the Germans weren't "Roman" and that "Roman" culture would be destroyed. In trying to keep their borders closed, Rome destroyed itself.

    In comparison, the United States had no immigration laws until 1882, when the Chinese Exclusion Act was passed. Not only was "American cultures" or "American freedoms" not destroyed, but the country grew in leaps and bounds. And in that growth immigrants, as a source of cheap labor and some of the groups driving Western expansion, helped lead to one of the most economically successful periods in American history.

    The "cultural suicide" argument is just complete hogwash.
    Answers in bold
    Last edited by PierzStyx; 11-12-2015 at 06:28 PM.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Says the guy with the "Stand with Rand" logo and is a supporting member of the forums mission. A bit contradictory don't you think?
    Riddle me this, who would you rather practice civil disobedience under: Rand, or anyone else? A lack of tax enforcement is similar to voluntary taxation, and that is all I ask for. By all means, individuals who participate with voluntary governments should work hard to ensure they do not violate non-participants liberties.. I am not amoral. But ending the coercive tax will allow individuals to pool money how they see fit, should a voluntary government overstep its bounds.... To the point, because of who his father is, and because I can appreciate the difficulties of getting elected, I'll let him prove to me he would utilize force to enforce tax laws. I absolutely know every other one of the candidates would. So, no, I don't think I am being contradictory.

  27. #24
    Lew has totally gone nuts. This issue may be the worst, most statist position I've ever seen him take.

    He's wrong. A militarized police border state is a violation of property and liberty. Lew has gone off the reservation.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    What the hell has gotten into him?
    Lew wrote the newsletters. He has always been a white supremacist and now that Ron (his easiest source of money) is retired he can go back to doing what he was writing about before.

    He is an absolute cancer to the Liberty movement.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlerzzz View Post
    Lew wrote the newsletters. He has always been a white supremacist and now that Ron (his easiest source of money) is retired he can go back to doing what he was writing about before.

    He is an absolute cancer to the Liberty movement.
    I don't agree with Lew on this issue but he didn't write the questionable newsletters.

    The author to the newsletters was James B. Powell.

    http://www.fox19.com/story/16458700/...st-newsletters
    There is no spoon.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    I don't agree with Lew on this issue but he didn't write the questionable newsletters.

    The author to the newsletters was James B. Powell.

    http://www.fox19.com/story/16458700/...st-newsletters
    Lew Rockwell is still a racist.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanSpartan View Post
    Logic and reason as well as the drive for self preservation.

    He understand that mass immigration is not compatible with Liberty when invading cultures will subvert and replace the culture of a nation.
    Let's preserve our white American marxist culture!

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Let's preserve our white American marxist culture!
    In a land we took from the brown/red people and built up the original wealth with black people so we could be "not compatible with Liberty as an invading culture that subverted and replaced the culture of a nation."
    There is no spoon.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Answers in bold
    They do not increase the power base, they vote overwhelming for the same Marxist views and candidates as they did back home.












    That is hard proof, they do not want to be free, only "free stuff".


    Yeah mass immigration did destroy Rome, your lies and revisionism does not change that fact.

    No the source of cheap labor and voter importation caused great strife on the East Coast.

    No it very much an arrangement, look at California, do you want demographics that insure only hard left candidates win elections?

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