Godlessness in the Last Days

[Natural Citizen]

Quick little 3 minute video. Seems about right if we look around. Thoughts?

[Sola_Fide]

Yes, I agree. That verse is also the reason postmillennialism isn't biblical.

[Natural Citizen]

Yes, I agree. That verse is also the reason postmillennialism isn't biblical.

Hm. Let me ask you this, then. If we look at society in it's current state and consider ways of changing it, would you say that it is practical to attempt the feat from the top down or from the bottom up at a kind of grass roots level? It's interesting that you mention this because this is why I placed the topic here as opposed to the regular Religion section.

[HVACTech]

Yes, I agree. That verse is also the reason postmillennialism isn't biblical.

ya, that is what I was thinking....
it is certainly not a sanguine preposition.

or did you have a point to make?

[Sola_Fide]

I will add though, that Paul was talking not about the world, which goes without saying is ungodly, but the world of the churches and the religious.

[Sola_Fide]

ya, that is what I was thinking....
it is certainly not a sanguine preposition.

or did you have a point to make?

What do you mean?

[Natural Citizen]

I will add though, that Paul was talking not about the world, which goes without saying is ungodly, but the world of the churches and the religious.

Mmm. Again, this is where my follow up questions comes from.

[Sola_Fide]

Hm. Let me ask you this, then. If we look at society in it's current state and consider ways of changing it, would you say that it is practical to attempt the feat from the top down or from the bottom up at a kind of grass roots level? It's interesting that you mention this because this is why I placed the topic here as opposed to the regular Religion section.

It's impossible for the state or anything else in this world to make people be self governing or virtuous....and infinitely impossible for them to make another person a Christian. God alone has chosen His elect and regenerates them.

[HVACTech]

What do you mean?

it pertained to the subject matter.

"Godlessness in the Last Days"

and my opposition to the subject matter friend.
if there is a GOD, it is a safe bet that he is large and in charge.
and if there is no god.
then this ball will just keep spinning.
reasonable hypothesis?

[Natural Citizen]

It's impossible for the state or anything else in this world to make people be self governing or virtuous....and infinitely impossible for them to make another person a Christian. God alone has chosen His elect and regenerates them.

Yeah, I can't argue against that. I was just curious about your answer there. It was just dumb luck that you chimed in when you did and in the specific way that you did in mentioning postmillennialism. I didn't expect that to be tossed out there so quickly.

I'll tell you what, though, S_F, looking around, I don't see much of any effort going on in society to try to be any less worldly.You know?

[Sola_Fide]

it pertained to the subject matter.

"Godlessness in the Last Days"

and my opposition to the subject matter friend.
if there is a GOD, it is a safe bet that he is large and in charge.
and if there is no god.
then this ball will just keep spinning.
reasonable hypothesis?

Yes God has predestined and planned everything. He's not only in control, but He has determined every single thing.

But there is one component you're missing in your post: your sin. If the Bible is true like we say, then what hope do you have to stand before God in judgment? Being a good person? I promise you, that's not enough.

[Christian Liberty]

Yes, I agree. That verse is also the reason postmillennialism isn't biblical.

Well, I'm generally partial preterist in my hermaneutic on eschatology in which case postmillennialism makes more sense.

[Natural Citizen]

Well, I'm generally partial preterist in my hermaneutic on eschatology in which case postmillennialism makes more sense.

Did you watch the video?

[Christian Liberty]

Did you watch the video?

Not yet

[Natural Citizen]

Not yet

Oh. I was just wondering. If you get a chance, maybe consider giving a watch. It's only 3 minutes. The reason I asked is because we always discuss isms. That's okay, I suppose but I'd like to have a good discussion about society itself once in a while. It's rather upside down at the moment. Millionaire televangelists and pop stars seem to be leading the charge.

[Christian Liberty]

Watched. Still #datpostmil

[Crashland]

And this is how everyone in the last 2000 years has been convinced that they are living in the last days, because they see that list of obvious attributes of human nature and go "OMG our society is just like that!" It's not like it used to be in the good old days when there were fewer evil people, or at least, totally not as bad as they are today!

[Christian Liberty]

And this is how everyone in the last 2000 years has been convinced that they are living in the last days, because they see that list of obvious attributes of human nature and go "OMG our society is just like that!" It's not like it used to be in the good old days when there were fewer evil people, or at least, totally not as bad as they are today!

Honestly yes, I sort of agree with you, depending on how "last days" is defined.

[Natural Citizen]

And this is how everyone in the last 2000 years has been convinced that they are living in the last days, because they see that list of obvious attributes of human nature and go "OMG our society is just like that!" It's not like it used to be in the good old days when there were fewer evil people, or at least, totally not as bad as they are today!

Hm. Okay. Well, let's look at 2 Timothy 3: 1-5, 13-14. That was essentially what the video was narrating. Except in visual form while providing what I thought were rather excellent examples of what the scripture were saying. Were they not?


Here is 1-5

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


13-14...

13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

[Crashland]

Hm. Okay. Well, let's look at 2 Timothy 3: 1-5, 13-14. That was essentially what the video was narrating. Except in visual form while providing what I thought were rather excellent examples of what the scripture was saying. Were they not?

Indeed, good examples today of qualities of human nature which have been around for thousands of years.

[Natural Citizen]

Indeed, good examples today of qualities of human nature which have been around for thousands of years.

So, who says that last days can't reside within a 2000 year span? That's only 730,000 days.

[Crashland]

So, who says that last days can't reside within a 2000 year span? That's only 730,000 days.

I suppose. But generally when people say we are living in the end times or near the end times, the implication is that there is something particularly imminent or unique to our generation. I don't think you can really point to any time in human history that did not meet those descriptions, so what's the point of calling them signs of anything?

[lilymc]

I suppose. But generally when people say we are living in the end times or near the end times, the implication is that there is something particularly imminent or unique to our generation. I don't think you can really point to any time in human history that did not meet those descriptions, so what's the point of calling them signs of anything?

It is true, of course, that mankind has always been 'fallen' (selfish, sinful, etc.)

But I do think that as a whole, things are gradually getting worse.

Even in my lifetime, I can see the moral decay (I hate that phrase, but for lack of a better word), and I believe it's going to get worse as time goes on.

I know you're not a Christian, so I'm sure you'll disagree, but that is what I can see happening, so I just wanted to chime in here and say that.

And thanks to all who watched the vid!

[pcosmar]

Hm. Let me ask you this, then. If we look at society in it's current state and consider ways of changing it, would you say that it is practical to attempt the feat from the top down or from the bottom up at a kind of grass roots level? It's interesting that you mention this because this is why I placed the topic here as opposed to the regular Religion section.

Grass root.

The top is already taken, any change starts at an individual level,, and out from there.

[Ronin Truth]

Care to share your 'Last Days' timeline?

[hells_unicorn]

Yes, I agree. That verse is also the reason postmillennialism isn't biblical.

And we can add this to the list of things that are proof against Baptists trying to argue eschatology.

[Sola_Fide]

And we can add this to the list of things that are proof agains Baptists trying to argue eschatology.

It's not a denominational issue. The majority of Presbyterians in history and presently are amillennialists. The Reformers were amillennial.

[pcosmar]

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that you be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

These are the beginning of sorrows..

It will get worse,, very much worse.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

and also,

"And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.…

The world was quite out of control "in the days of Noah".

it will be like that,

[Christian Liberty]

It's not a denominational issue. The majority of Presbyterians in history and presently are amillennialists. The Reformers were amillennial.

I'm pretty sure the WCF is historicist postmil, although I also think I'd probably disagree with it here and be more on the partial preterist postmil side.

[Christian Liberty]

It is true, of course, that mankind has always been 'fallen' (selfish, sinful, etc.)

But I do think that as a whole, things are gradually getting worse.

Even in my lifetime, I can see the moral decay (I hate that phrase, but for lack of a better word), and I believe it's going to get worse as time goes on.

I know you're not a Christian, so I'm sure you'll disagree, but that is what I can see happening, so I just wanted to chime in here and say that.

And thanks to all who watched the vid!

Honestly, as a fellow Christian I also disagree.

I would argue that passages like Psalm 110, 1 Corinthians 15, Isaiah 65, Psalm 2, Isaiah 11, Habakkuk 2:14, and others teach that eventually the majority of the world, if not all of it, will be evangelized before Christ comes back. And there are a number of bizarrities, the clear teachings of the gospels, and the clear wording of Psalm 110 that make me believe that this era of peace and prosperity will be BEFORE the second coming, not after.

That said, we are not guaranteed that we'll live to see it, nor are we guaranteed an easy life. So we should keep preaching the gospel and be prepared to deal with hardship.

I tend to think that, hermaneutically speaking, passages like the OP and Matthew 24 (two passages frequently used to defend a "pessimistic" eschatology) are more referring specifically to the 1st century, though I would not say the principles can't be applied to other situations like our present, clearly anti-Christian day.