"When Elon Musk isn’t mulling over self-driving cars or rocket launches, he has another thing on his mind: electric airplanes."
See more:
http://news.discovery.com/tech/alter...usk-151017.htm
Originally Posted by I<3Liberty
Stupid
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I admire the guy's ambition and commitment to his work. Albeit he is a bit crazy. Some of his projects are a little out there make him appear to be stuck in some sci-fi fantasy land. His infatuation with going to Mars is a prime example of this.He invested nearly everything he had from selling PayPal to eBay, and invested it into SpaceX, Tesla, and Solar City. He had to borrow money in order to support himself.
Rockets, Teslas, Gigafactories, Hyperloops ... awesome.
Electric airplanes ... dumb. Batteries are nowhere close to the energy density of jet fuel. And energy density is extremely important if you want something to fly in the air.
Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,--
Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown,
Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.
He is game as long as the taxpayers keep footing his bills...he gets rich off government handouts.
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Not yet. Remember early mobile phone batteries ?
"I am a bird"
This ^^^ P.T. Barnum of modern times.
A Boeing 777-300ER carries 304,000lbs of fuel fully loaded. This contains just under 6 terajoules of energy.The battery pack of a Tesla Model S is about 300 megajoules.
So you'd need 19,700 Tesla battery packs to power your 777-equivilant jetliner. Problem is they weight over 15 millions pounds.
Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,--
Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown,
Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.
Well obviously it's not going to happen tomorrow. It's especially a big problem for large, long range aircraft. When it happens it won't be with lithium ion batteries but something new with a higher energy density. There are plenty of research groups looking into different kind of nano-materials. I hardly know anything about batteries but those that do are very optimistic about the future possibilities.
"I am a bird"
First we need phones able to last more than a day without charging.
Dilithium Crystals or a really long extension cord. Few people grasp just how extraordinary petroleum based fuels are. As a student of aviation history, I am aware of all sorts of far out ideas attempted by private individuals and governments using other people's money. From the steam powered Besler Travel Air, which preformed quite well, to the Air Force fision reactor B-36 test bed which was impractical. I won't say that electric powered supersonic flight is impossible, but I highly doubt it will ever be practical, especially at carrying payload. Bottom line, my bet is, it is a bridge to nowhere.
"When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat
Peace.
Not a problem for nanotech batteries currently in development.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-HN...4aZuIMTojSbAVR
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Absolutely.
And then there's the fact that no propellor-driven aircraft has ever broken the speed of sound. How is an electric motor supposed to move the air except with a prop? Can a prop even survive the shock wave?
Seems much more than logical to me, in an electric universe.
12 foot Aero Products prop powered by a Allison XT-40-A-1 turboprop used on the Republic XF-84H
"When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat
Peace.
The Thunderscreech?
Does that turkey not prove my point?
The book I have says its performance is still classified (book copyright 1975), so I don't know. The nickname Thunderscreech is apropos as the prop "produced hypersonic sound waves during ground run-up, though inaudible, created acute nausea in anyone with in several hundred feet of the plane."The Thunderscreech?
Does that turkey not prove my point?
"When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat
Peace.
Every source I've seen pegs it at Mach .9
Even so, the topic was the prop itself, and it had plenty of problems. And it was designed for transonic aircraft, not a true supersonic bird.
No, it was not without reason that the Thunderscreech made the military allergic to props on warbirds in an age when supersonic was the buzzword of the day.
2013: http://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/a...lanes-to-watch
Planes at link. Most are gliders with really long wings.10 Electric Planes to Watch
Solar and other all-electric planes are getting more practical
Solar Impulse, a 1-seater solar-powered plane,completed a 5695-kilometer bunny hop across the United States on 6 July. The feat deservedly got a lot of attention, but it’s just the tip of the iceberg: Electric flying has been a reality for quite some time, and it’s never been more practical.
Aviation is a slow-moving industry, but the daring designers of electric aircraft have made a lot of progress recently. During the past two years, as a number of key technologies—batteries, controllers, motors, and materials—have neared maturity and become easier to source at more affordable prices, there has been a minor boom of sorts in the offering of electric drives for small planes.
Because batteries still haven’t made the energy-density quantum leap that we all hoped for—gasoline’s energy density is still about 13 times that of the best lithium-ion batteries—most electric planes are self-launching gliders or motorized gliders. These have less stringent requirements in terms of range than standard aircraft, and their highly aerodynamically efficient airframes require less power to keep them airborne in all phases of flight. What follows is a sampling of the most innovative efforts.
Still a long ways from the "supersonic take-off" Musk says his dream plane will be able to achieve.CRI-CRI E-CRISTALINE/E-FAN
The funnily named Cri-Cri, a vintage 1970s design, is such a charming little airplane that it’s no surprise that there have been two different electric versions of it. In 2010, Airbus made one. The company added two engines for good measure, making it the smallest four-motor electric plane in the world by far. Shortly afterward, the Cri-Cri E-Cristaline—whose power train was developed by Electravia, a French company—became the world’s fastest electric aircraft, zinging about at 262 km/h, with Frenchman Hugues Duval at the controls. Duval went on to beat his own record the following year, bringing it to 283 km/h. That record was broken by Chip Yates in 2012, but it must be said that it was set at only 75 percent of the power available. The limiting factor, as it happens, is the airframe’s maximum design speed of 290 km/h. The Cri-Cri drapes over the pilot like a Savile Row suit: It has a wingspan of just 4.9 meters and a paltry empty weight of 78 kg. Despite coming in an extremely small package, it packs a surprising punch: It’s fully aerobatic, it’s a hoot and a half to fly, and it’s a guaranteed crowd pleaser whenever it lands. Needless to say, it doesn’t take up much space in the hangar.
After experimenting with the Cri-Cri, Airbus came up with a new all-electric design called the E-Fan. The product of Didier Esteyne, the same French engineer who electrified the Airbus Cri-Cri, the E-Fan hasn’t flown yet. It looks promising, though. Its main feature, noticeable even to casual observers, is a couple of electric ducted fans in lieu of normal propellers. Capable of aerobatics, the E-Fan is geared toward the training aircraft market, where the typical mission profile (lots of shorter flights from the same base rather than longer point-to-point cruises) suits the limitations of the batteries. While its final specs haven’t been fixed, it shouldn’t weigh more than 550 kg at takeoff (in line with the advanced light-aircraft regulations in the United States and some European countries). It will likely have two 30-kW engines and two lithium polymer battery packs made of 120 cells from the industry leader Kokam, for a total of 250 volts.
Last edited by Zippyjuan; 10-18-2015 at 07:35 PM.
Props are not necessarily necessary.
See: http://cpdlt.mae.ufl.edu/WEAV.htm
That said, a ducted fan could probably survive the shock wave.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
How so? I bet Space-X gets less in handouts than Boeing.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Um, electromagnets need something to push against. That's about a hovercraft.
If you tell me we're going supersonic at less than treetop level, I will not be joining you for the test flight.
Of course, plasma flow can be used for propulsion on winged aircraft, and is on very light models. But ionocraft have so far never generated more thrust than the equivalent of a 'gentle breeze'. A gentle breeze will accelerate nothing to supersonic speeds.
Last edited by acptulsa; 10-19-2015 at 07:43 AM.
That's not a hovercraft. It's an ion propulsion craft and such craft can already go much higher than treetop level. The basic theory is this. Air get's ionize and flows through the magnetic field creating thrust using Neuton's 2nd law of motion. So you can fly anyplace you have enough air which is as high as any prop driven aircraft. The limiting factor is that it requires a lot of energy. But such energy could be beamed to the craft or, as I pointed out in the lightsaber video, we will in < 50 years have batteries you can hold in your had that could power an entire city.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
According to the report you linked, they are playing with a wingless craft with a maximum altitude of five feet. That is a hovercraft.
But that's irrelevant to the question of whether plasma flow can generate enough air velocity to thrust a winged aircraft up to supersonic speeds. And the answer is, not even close with current technology, and not much hope of it ever happening. And it requires the skin of the craft be energized with incredible voltage, which should be reassuring to passengers. In fact, it begs the question of whether the voltage must be high enough, and the electrified surfaces close enough together, that instead of ionizing and accelerating air it will just turn into one big spark plug. There is water in air, and it's seldom pure.
I don't see Elon Musk living long enough to see plasma flow getting him off the ground, much less up to supersonic speeds.
Last edited by acptulsa; 10-19-2015 at 07:56 AM.
That's one liftercraft. It doesn't represent the entire field. And they are trying to build one that doesn't require a tethered power source. You can build one right now for < $100.00 USD that will fly as high as your power cord.
I posted that to refute your point about props. That said, you didn't even address the ducted fan point I made.But that's irrelevant to the question of whether plasma flow can generate enough air velocity to thrust a winged aircraft up to supersonic speeds.
A) That's why there is this thing called "research." There is current technology, cutting edge technology, things that are theoretically possible, and what can only happen in science fiction. Supersonic electronic aircraft fall somewhere between cutting edge and what is theoretically possible as opposed to faster than light which is between theoretically possible and can only happen in science fiction.And the answer is, not even close with current technology, and not much hope of it ever happening. And it requires the skin of the craft be energized with incredible voltage, which should be reassuring to passengers.
B) I take it you've never heard of something called a Faraday cage?
Folks said the same thing about the Wright brothers. That said, I expect he's thinking ducted fan (which you didn't even bother to address).I don't see Elon Musk living long enough to see plasma flow getting him off the ground, much less up to supersonic speeds.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Apparently I mixed two different things lol.
Nevermind.
Last edited by luctor-et-emergo; 10-19-2015 at 08:20 AM.
"I am a bird"
A ducted fan is still a prop. It's the same thing only not much different. It isn't as efficient, generally speaking, as an unducted prop, which is an obvious disadvantage if using battery power. The duct itself increases frontal area, which is the prime number in aerodynamics.
Except that it offers certain possible advantages in structural strength, and would certainly assist with noise abatement, I'm not sure what the advantage is of a ducted versus and unducted fan in transonic flight.
As for the people who laughed at the Wright brothers, they were wrong. But people also laughed at the several people who attempted (and did actually fly small models for short distances) steam powered airplanes. And those people were right to laugh.
Last edited by acptulsa; 10-19-2015 at 08:24 AM.
Air can be slowed down in a duct so it's subsonic near the blades. That's generally what happens in supersonic jet engines. A jet engine essentially is a ducted propellor with lots of blades.. In the most basic sense.
"I am a bird"
I'd like to see more diesel powered planes. At least those with reciprocating ic diesel. They are lower RPM than gas, so they can drive props efficiently, and they can have long burn rates at altitude with turbo /forced aspiration. The only negative is weight, but I think there is a lot that can be done to lighten or offset weight. Perhaps a hybrid electric? Even in with gas motors, there would be efficiencies in keeping prop speed down, while the engine is permitted to operate at a higher RPM (speaking from a prop speed reduction perspective).
Certified/commercial aviation is a pay-to-play operation, from a manufacturer standpoint. That's why we see only huge companies, or 50 year old technology in Lyc or Connie power plants. Its my opinion that there is room for so much innovation, but electric is probably not what I'd pursue first. Kind of like chasing after that hydrogen fuel cell garbage - there are huge efficiencies to be had at arm's reach, why climb to the top of the tree for what would amount to a modest improvement, at great cost.
All that being said, I cant say I disagree with Elon - I like how he's aggressively pursuing battery technology.
Here's are some fun examples of some electric powered planes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs8_w1r2U-s
Gulag Chief: "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"
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