Where do Seventh Day Adventist sect beliefs fall relative to Christianity?

[Christian Liberty]

FF, does the gospel that Arminianism preaches save? Of course not. If I was to say that I believe in the one gospel that saves, but my brothers in the faith are the ones who believe in the false gospel that doesn't savd, what am I really saying?

Yes, I think it can save. There are serious errors in the system, which if consistently worked out would be worthy of condemnation, but real people are often inconsistent and paradoxically profess faith alone and grace alone while also claiming "free will."

[Christian Liberty]

Yes, it's a rejection of the gospel.

So let's be perfectly clear, are all such people not saved?

[Sola_Fide]

Yes, I think it can save. There are serious errors in the system, which if consistently worked out would be worthy of condemnation, but real people are often inconsistent and paradoxically profess faith alone and grace alone while also claiming "free will."

Is the Holy Spirit responsible for granting saving faith?

[Christian Liberty]

Is the Holy Spirit responsible for granting saving faith?

Yes.

[Christian Liberty]

Sola, just curious, do you agree with the conclusion of this article, and if not, where do you disagree?:

http://www.outsidethecamp.org/efl268.htm

If you do agree, would you accept the logical conclusion that this means you were lost when you first met me on this forum and considered me a brother even though I think some Arminians are Christians?

If you don't agree, where is the line, and why?

[Sola_Fide]

Yes.

The Holy Spirit gives one man saving faith that Christ died for all men and it's his own choice that caused his salvation, and the Holy Spirit gives another man the Biblical faith that Christ died for the elect and secured his salvation by the blood of Christ alone?

That seems irrational, doesn't it?

[Christian Liberty]

The Holy Spirit gives one man saving faith that Christ died for all men and it's his own choice that caused his salvation, and the Holy Spirit gives another man the Biblical faith that Christ died for the elect and secured his salvation by the blood of Christ alone?

That seems irrational, doesn't it?

Is it irrational that God gives one man saving faith yet he believes in paedobaptism and gives another man saving faith yet he believes in credobaptism?

Why not just judge people lost based on every single issue of disagreement then?

The Lord works in mysterious ways.

[Sola_Fide]

Is it irrational that God gives one man saving faith yet he believes in paedobaptism and gives another man saving faith yet he believes in credobaptism?

Why not just judge people lost based on every single issue of disagreement then?

The Lord works in mysterious ways.

Some people do that. They are called baptismal regenerationists.

I don't do that because the mode of baptism, or baptism entirely, doesn't have anything to do with the gospel.

[Christian Liberty]

Some people do that. They are called baptismal regenerationists.

I don't do that because the mode of baptism, or baptism entirely, doesn't have anything to do with the gospel.

I understand that its not soteriological in the strictest sense, but the point is God grants faith which he then grows over time, which means that of course the faith of a new believer is going to have errors and logical contradictions in it. Systems may be consistent, but real people rarely are. and this is a lesson I've learned hard and over a long period because I try to be logically consistent on every viewpoint. Some people just don't care.

[jmdrake]

Are followers of Seventh Day Adventist sect real Christians?
Trying to separate theological debate from a political one about beliefs of a Presidential candidate who claims to be a Christian.


Sev·enth-day Ad·vent·ist

noun
noun: Seventh-Day Adventist; plural noun: Seventh-Day Adventists; noun: Seventh-day Adventist; plural noun: Seventh-day Adventists

• a member of a Protestant sect that preaches the imminent return of Christ to Earth (originally expecting the Second Coming in 1844) and observes Saturday as the sabbath.

I must have missed this thread. Seventh-Day Adventists believe in the Bible as the standard for the Christian to live by, the Trinity, justification by faith, that the 10 commandments were not changed but our relationship to them has changed (they are written on our hearts obedience comes from our saving relationship with Christ and not the other way around), that if you want God to bless you with good health you should do what He asks with regards to health, that Jesus died for all (note Sola_Fide and others find most Christians to be non Christian because we actually believe John when he said that Jesus died not just for our sins but the sins of the entire world), that spiritual gifts did not end with the first century Christians (that's where the whole Ellen White thing comes in and Revelation identifies God's people at the end of time having the spirit of prophecy) that hell doesn't go on forever (a view Martin Luther agreed with), that we are supposed to be a priesthood of believers with servant leadership (more difficult in practice than in theory) with Jesus as our High Priest who lives to make intercession for us, that Jesus will literally come again in the clouds where every eye will see him, that the rapture will not at all be secret and will happen before the millennium, that during the millennium the wicked will all be dead and the righteous will be in heaven (that's how Satan is in the bottemless pit), that at the end of the millennium is the second resurrection where Satan is able to deceive again, that there is an ultimate end to sin.

That's not everything I'm sure. That's what I find most interesting myself. Here's a good place to go if you are looking to learn more about SDA beliefs.

http://www.adventist.org/fileadmin/a...fs-English.pdf

[jmdrake]

Yes, it's a rejection of the gospel.

LOL. No dear SF. The false teaching that God hates most of humanity and created them just to burn them forever is not the gospel. Jesus died for the entire world according to the apostle John. I know that you do your song and dance to pretend that the Bible doesn't say what it clearly says just like CL/FF does his song and dance to pretend that the New Covenant isn't about the law being written on our hearts or that Jesus really didn't mean it when He said the field where the wheat and tares grow together represents the world so that he can continue to believe that Jesus wants "Christian" civil governments to kill heretics. Whenever someone brings up a point your theology can't handle you brush it off as "bad heuristics" or "bad exegesis." You guys make me LOL.

[jmdrake]

Is the Holy Spirit responsible for granting saving faith?

Yes. That's exactly what SDA's believe. The only difference is we believe that it's possible to reject a gift. Adam was created perfect but, temporarily anyway, rejected God. Lucifer was created perfect and permanently rejected God. And of course you will predictably respond "Well what does that have to do with salvation?" Everything. If a perfectly created being can reject God than a regenerated person can reject God as well. Grace is not irresistible. That's the fatal theological flaw of Calvinism.

[jmdrake]

It's a controversial topic among Christians. They used to be more uniformly denounced as a cult than they are today. Part of that is because of more tolerance and less emphasis on dogmatic truth among most professing Christians, but part of it is also a reflection of some rapprochement towards evangelicalism on the parts of many within 7th Day Adventism.

It would probably be safe to say that 7th Day Adventism is not as far from most of Protestant and Catholic Christendom as Mormonism is. So, while Romney's faith mattered to Christians a little bit politically, Carson's will probably matter less.

I'm actually a little surprised by this. I keep expecting Dr. Carson to be asked a question regarding the historical SDA view on the papacy. So far he's only been asked about Muslims. I don't get it.

[Sola_Fide]

LOL. No dear SF. The false teaching that God hates most of humanity and created them just to burn them forever is not the gospel. Jesus died for the entire world according to the apostle John. I know that you do your song and dance to pretend that the Bible doesn't say what it clearly says just like CL/FF does his song and dance to pretend that the New Covenant isn't about the law being written on our hearts or that Jesus really didn't mean it when He said the field where the wheat and tares grow together represents the world so that he can continue to believe that Jesus wants "Christian" civil governments to kill heretics. Whenever someone brings up a point your theology can't handle you brush it off as "bad heuristics" or "bad exegesis." You guys make me LOL.

First, I am not a Reconstructionist by any means, and the majority of Reformed people in history have not been Reconstructionists (not that I am defending all the Reformed world either, just stating the facts).

You said:

The false teaching that God hates most of humanity and created them just to burn them forever is not the gospel.

You're right. That's not the gospel. The gospel is that Jesus came to save His people by fully atoning for their sins. Hebrews 10:14 says:

For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

The Bible links the sacrifice of Jesus only to those that He saved, not every man head to head.

Seventh Day Adventism teaches that Jesus had a sinful, human nature, which is an abomination. It also teaches legalism, which is against Scripture.

[jmdrake]

First, I am not a Reconstructionist by any means, and the majority of Reformed people in history have not been Reconstructionists (not that I am defending all the Reformed world either, just stating the facts).

I know you aren't. That's precisely why I raised that point. It's a compare/contrast issue. You disagree with reconstructionists yet you all use the same debate style even in your points of disagreement. When someone points out that where the Bible doesn't support your position you say "bad exegesis" then move on to verses that you think support your position without ever actually addressing the point being raised against your position.

You said:


You're right. That's not the gospel. The gospel is that Jesus came to save His people by fully atoning for their sins. Hebrews 10:14 says:


The Bible links the sacrifice of Jesus only to those that He saved, not every man head to head.

^See what I mean?

Seventh Day Adventism teaches that Jesus had a sinful, human nature, which is an abomination. It also teaches legalism, which is against Scripture.

Uhhh....no. This is what Seventh Day Adventism teaches.

Son
Z
4
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed,
the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the
Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human be
-
ing, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God’s power and was attested
as God’s promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the
dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance
of His people and the restoration of all things. ( John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John
5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)

Christ was like all points tempted as we are yet without sin. Christ was truly the second Adam. Adam was not created with a sinful nature but Adam still chose to sin.

Edit: And your playing false accusation hopscotch is typical in these discussions. You basically move from one false accusation to another hoping one will stick. If you opened your mind a little you might learn something. The offer is still there for a copy of the SDA devotional on Romans I'm reading. You would learn more about what SDAs believe than you do from fake websites.

[helmuth_hubener]

If you opened your mind a little you might learn something. The offer is still there for a copy of the SDA devotional on Romans I'm reading. You would learn more about what SDAs believe than you do from fake websites.

See, here is a very productive offer! Sola, you should totally take him up on it.

J.M. Drake, your ability to stay cool in the midst of all this barrage of attacks, and even to show kindness, is amazing. And it is very admirable. You have assumed good faith and made a sincere offer to help enable learning. Two thumbs up; I'd +rep you, but I already did too recently. This is the kind of attitude and high-minded decorum that could make the Religion subforum an actual productive -- or at least not horrible -- place.

[Christian Liberty]

I must have missed this thread. Seventh-Day Adventists believe in the Bible as the standard for the Christian to live by, the Trinity, justification by faith, that the 10 commandments were not changed but our relationship to them has changed (they are written on our hearts obedience comes from our saving relationship with Christ and not the other way around), that if you want God to bless you with good health you should do what He asks with regards to health, that Jesus died for all (note Sola_Fide and others find most Christians to be non Christian because we actually believe John when he said that Jesus died not just for our sins but the sins of the entire world), that spiritual gifts did not end with the first century Christians (that's where the whole Ellen White thing comes in and Revelation identifies God's people at the end of time having the spirit of prophecy) that hell doesn't go on forever (a view Martin Luther agreed with), that we are supposed to be a priesthood of believers with servant leadership (more difficult in practice than in theory) with Jesus as our High Priest who lives to make intercession for us, that Jesus will literally come again in the clouds where every eye will see him, that the rapture will not at all be secret and will happen before the millennium, that during the millennium the wicked will all be dead and the righteous will be in heaven (that's how Satan is in the bottemless pit), that at the end of the millennium is the second resurrection where Satan is able to deceive again, that there is an ultimate end to sin.

That's not everything I'm sure. That's what I find most interesting myself. Here's a good place to go if you are looking to learn more about SDA beliefs.

http://www.adventist.org/fileadmin/a...fs-English.pdf

For clarification, I do not believe universal atonement to be a damnable error. Pretty sure Sola thinks I'm going to Hell for that as well

[jmdrake]

For clarification, I do not believe universal atonement to be a damnable error. Pretty sure Sola thinks I'm going to Hell for that as well

Only if you aren't already part of the elect. If you are than you are guaranteed to eventually be shown the error of your ways.

[hells_unicorn]

I'm still not responding directly to Jmdrake, but after reading this particularly section in a quotation from CL...

hell doesn't go on forever (a view Martin Luther agreed with)

Somebody really needs to be careful about taking everything cited on Wikipedia at face value. Luther did not reject the idea of eternal hell, he simply protested the idolatrous depictions of it by Roman artists, who were conflating Hell with The Lake of Fire and adding in imagery from Greek and Roman paganism. The person most directly responsible for promoting this misconception that Luther believed in a temporary hell is author Richard Marius (though knowing drake's fanatical liberalism, he probably got it from a review written by Emergent Church heretic Rob Bell). Marius, for everyone's information, is also noteworthy for having referred to Augustine of Hippo as being the most evil man in human history (Luther would have kicked his ass for saying such a thing). I have linked a rebuttal below to clear up this myth.

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspo...e-in-hell.html
http://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/...bell-on-luthe/

[jmdrake]

I'm still not responding directly to Jmdrake, but after reading this particularly section in a quotation from CL...

LOL. I find your childish antics amusing and not worth responding to.

Edit: And if you had the brains God gave a sea slug you would know there are more references to Martin Luther and annihilation than just Wikipedia. For example. http://www.heavensfamily.org/ss/e_te...tionism-part-3