Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 70

Thread: Justice Without State

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    As I said:


    "The State's criminality is nothing new and nothing to be wondered at. It began when the first predatory group of men clustered together and formed the State, and it will continue as long as the State exists in the world, because the State is fundamentally an anti-social institution, fundamentally criminal." ~ Albert Jay Nock



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    "The State's criminality is nothing new and nothing to be wondered at. It began when the first predatory group of men clustered together and formed the State, and it will continue as long as the State exists in the world, because the State is fundamentally an anti-social institution, fundamentally criminal." ~ Albert Jay Nock
    That's quite the non-response.

    Nothing to say about Zomia?



  4. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That's quite the non-response.

    Nothing to say about Zomia?
    I guess if you're poor enough, too much trouble, and just not worth enough for the statists to take you over, you just may be safe from the curse and scourge of statism for a millennium or so.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    I guess if you're poor enough, too much trouble, and just not worth enough for the statists to take you over, you just may be safe from the curse and scourge of statism for a millennium or so.
    That's the author's thesis, and I'd agree.

    But is that a good "solution" to your mind?

    Would you rather be a dirt poor semi-nomadic tribesman than live under a state, even a minarchist one?

    I sure as hell wouldn't.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That's the author's thesis, and I'd agree.

    But is that a good "solution" to your mind?

    Would you rather be a dirt poor semi-nomadic tribesman than live under a state, even a minarchist one?

    I sure as hell wouldn't.
    Not being a prey to a predatory state is worth a lot. If they are unhappy being nomadic tribesmen, then someone just needs to explain their other world of options open to them.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Not being a prey to a predatory state is worth a lot. If they are unhappy being nomadic tribesmen, then someone just needs to explain their other world of options open to them.
    To each his own, but I think you'll find few converts to anarcho-capitalism once you explain that it requires a reversion to prehistoric living conditions.

    ...not to mention the problems of how that reversion could be brought about (do ancaps intend to blow up all the machines, factories, trains, etc?, and then watch as 90% of the current population starves to death?), or how it could be maintained (how could economic growth be prevented once this primitive state were reached? would ancaps shoot poke to death with pointy sticks anybody who dared to reinvent the steam engine?).

    That any anarcho-capitalist would even have to think twice in choosing between subsistence and the state reinforces something I've been saying for a long time: modern ancaps are so focused on hating the state that they're increasingly losing site of the whole purpose of libertarianism. Rothbard, for instance, would be shocked and appalled to find his successors become an insane cult bent on the destruction of civilization, in the name of freedom. It's ridiculous.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 10-04-2015 at 04:05 PM.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That's quite the non-response.

    Nothing to say about Zomia?
    You know how he interprets this question right? A google search without actually reading anything that comes up is the extent of his concept of research.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    modern ancaps are so focused on hating the state that they're increasingly losing site of the whole purpose of libertarianism.
    I don't call myself a libertarian. But for me the purpose of hating the state is because the state is evil. It's wrong. Even if it made us better off, which I dispute, it would still be wrong, and it would be wrong to support it. I have no choice in that. There are lots of evil things I could do that would improve my standard of living in this world, but I ought not to do them. And the fact that they would make me better off materially doesn't change that. Whether or not the state makes us any better off is ultimately irrelevant.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Not being a prey to a predatory state is worth a lot. If they are unhappy being nomadic tribesmen, then someone just needs to explain their other world of options open to them.
    thats pretty Lame Ronin. even for you.

    " It began when the first predatory group of men clustered together and formed the State,"

    you guys crack me up with how you fumble around with the word "state"

    "group of men clustered together"

    would this definition include a group of Women "clustered together" for a church bake sale?

    enlighten us.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    thats pretty Lame Ronin. even for you.

    " It began when the first predatory group of men clustered together and formed the State,"

    you guys crack me up with how you fumble around with the word "state"

    "group of men clustered together"

    would this definition include a group of Women "clustered together" for a church bake sale?

    enlighten us.
    I won't pretend to know anything at all about Ronin's thinking. But since you said "you guys" I fear that you may associate his views with other anti-statists. So I'll explain some things as I understand them.

    The key distinction between a state and governments that are not states is that the state is not a voluntary association. If participation in a group is voluntary, it is not a state. The governments of churches and clubs are not states.

    The origins of states always goes back to some group of people conquering some other group of people and subjugating them under their rule for the advantage of the conquering group. The state is this ruling group as a subset within the whole society comprised of both groups.



  13. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I don't call myself a libertarian. But for me the purpose of hating the state is because the state is evil. It's wrong. Even if it made us better off, which I dispute, it would still be wrong, and it would be wrong to support it. I have no choice in that. There are lots of evil things I could do that would improve my standard of living in this world, but I ought not to do them. And the fact that they would make me better off materially doesn't change that. Whether or not the state makes us any better off is ultimately irrelevant.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to erowe1 again.
    Someone +rep my brother erowe, plz.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I won't pretend to know anything at all about Ronin's thinking. But since you said "you guys" I fear that you may associate his views with other anti-statists. So I'll explain some things as I understand them.

    The key distinction between a state and governments that are not states is that the state is not a voluntary association. If participation in a group is voluntary, it is not a state. The governments of churches and clubs are not states.

    The origins of states always goes back to some group of people conquering some other group of people and subjugating them under their rule for the advantage of the conquering group. The state is this ruling group as a subset within the whole society comprised of both groups.

    "The key distinction between a state and governments that are not states is that the state is not a voluntary association."

    brilliant assessment Watson.

    so, "voluntary" is the key operative word, eh?

    therefore, if at any time. ONE person decides NOT to "volunteer" anymore. ( or in the first place) the whole thing should be trashed.
    I get it.
    sounds like a grand idea. how would you go about this?

    promote Liberty?
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    "The key distinction between a state and governments that are not states is that the state is not a voluntary association."

    brilliant assessment Watson.

    so, "voluntary" is the key operative word, eh?

    therefore, if at any time. ONE person decides NOT to "volunteer" anymore. ( or in the first place) the whole thing should be trashed.
    I get it.
    sounds like a grand idea. how would you go about this?

    promote Liberty?
    You can voluntarily enter a contract that stipulates you must settle all debts and legal grievances before being allowed to exit. Not difficult really.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaulIsGreat View Post
    You can voluntarily enter a contract that stipulates you must settle all debts and legal grievances before being allowed to exit. Not difficult really.
    "I get it.
    sounds like a grand idea. how would you go about this?"

    promote, Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

    and perhaps organize the existing "states" into a federation?
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    "I get it.
    sounds like a grand idea. how would you go about this?"

    promote, Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

    and perhaps organize the existing "states" into a federation?
    I'm waiting for the aftermath of WWIII, I figure people will be open to new ideas then.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    "The key distinction between a state and governments that are not states is that the state is not a voluntary association."

    brilliant assessment Watson.

    so, "voluntary" is the key operative word, eh?

    therefore, if at any time. ONE person decides NOT to "volunteer" anymore. ( or in the first place) the whole thing should be trashed.
    I get it.
    sounds like a grand idea. how would you go about this?

    promote Liberty?
    How would I go about what?

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    How would I go about what?
    "The key distinction between a state and governments that are not states is that the state is not a voluntary association."

    it was in response to YOUR statement dude.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    "The key distinction between a state and governments that are not states is that the state is not a voluntary association."

    it was in response to YOUR statement dude.
    That statement makes no mention of going about anything. I was defining the word state (and that in a perfectly normal way). I still don't see how your question is a response to it. You asked how I go about that. Go about what?



  22. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaulIsGreat View Post
    I'm waiting for the aftermath of WWIII, I figure people will be open to new ideas then.
    brilliant!
    idea.

    for cowards.
    and the feebleminded. ~hugz~ LULZ!
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    That statement makes no mention of going about anything. I was defining the word state (and that in a perfectly normal way). I still don't see how your question is a response to it. You asked how I go about that. Go about what?
    securing the "voluntary" aspect. in an organized society.

    are you REALLY that slow?
    or is obfuscation your desire?
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    securing the "voluntary" aspect. in an organized society.

    are you REALLY that slow?
    or is obfuscation your desire?
    I am that slow. I still don't understand. If something is a state, then there is no voluntary aspect to secure. If something is not a state, like a church, or a Boy Scout troop, then there are lots of ways to form and get people to join groups like those. That happens all the time.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    brilliant!
    idea.

    for cowards.
    and the feebleminded. ~hugz~ LULZ!
    Nah, personally I don't care. Just trying to answer your questions. I wouldn't waste one second of my personal effort trying to convert or save a statist, they aren't even human.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I am that slow. I still don't understand. If something is a state, then there is no voluntary aspect to secure. If something is not a state, like a church, or a Boy Scout troop, then there are lots of ways to form and get people to join groups like those. That happens all the time.
    just in case, you are sincere.

    you are discussing the meaning of the word. "state" with an HVAC/RTech.
    I DO NOT find this word to be complicated.

    why do you struggle with it?

    "The key distinction between a state and governments that are not states is that the state is not a voluntary association."
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    just in case, you are sincere.

    you are discussing the meaning of the word. "state" with an HVAC/RTech.
    I DO NOT find this word to be complicated.

    why do you struggle with it?

    "The key distinction between a state and governments that are not states is that the state is not a voluntary association."
    I don't struggle with it. That's why I told you the meaning so easily. Do you not accept what I said? Your being an HVAC tech is irrelevant.

  29. #55
    It's hard to know if justice is possible without a state, but it's proven justice is impossible with one.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I don't struggle with it. That's why I told you the meaning so easily. Do you not accept what I said? Your being an HVAC tech is irrelevant.

    HVAC has a LOT to do with the various "states" of matter my friend.
    what is "Natural" gas. (methane) before we burn it?

    the very basis for modern cooling systems involves a "change of state"

    no $#@! Sherlock.
    you are a waste of my time friend.
    have a nice life!
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.



  31. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post

    HVAC has a LOT to do with the various "states" of matter my friend.
    what is "Natural" gas. (methane) before we burn it?

    the very basis for modern cooling systems involves a "change of state"

    no $#@! Sherlock.
    you are a waste of my time friend.
    have a nice life!
    If anybody in this thread has been obstinate and guilty of obfuscation, it is it you.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post

    HVAC has a LOT to do with the various "states" of matter my friend.
    what is "Natural" gas. (methane) before we burn it?

    the very basis for modern cooling systems involves a "change of state"

    no $#@! Sherlock.
    you are a waste of my time friend.
    have a nice life!
    I wasn't talking about states of matter. You know that.

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    If anybody in this thread has been obstinate and guilty of obfuscation, it is it you.
    yeah, I really should have wrote "states" of Nature. not matter.

    my bad.

    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    yeah, I really should have wrote "states" of Nature. not matter.

    my bad.

    We weren't talking about states of nature either. You're mixing in totally irrelevant ideas.

    Do you have a problem with what I said about the state (the kind we were talking about) being involuntary? If so, what? If not, then why are you drawing this on like this?

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •