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Thread: Strange New Climate Change Spin

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    Strange New Climate Change Spin

    Strange New Climate Change Spin: The Hottest Year Ever Inside a Global Warming ‘Pause’?
    By WILLIAM M BRIGGS Published on September 23, 2015

    William M Briggs
    There are two stories floating around about the state of the earth’s atmosphere. Both are believed true by government-funded scientists and the environmentally minded. The situation is curious because the stories don’t mesh. Yet, as I said, both are believed. Worse, neither is true.

    Story number one is that this year will be the hottest ever. And number two is that the reason it is not hot is because “natural variation” has masked or stalled man-caused global warming.

    Which is it? Either it’s hotter than ever or it isn’t. If it is, then (it is implied) man-caused global warming has not “paused.” If it isn’t, if man-caused global warming has “paused,” then it is not growing hotter.

    There are two things to keep straight: (1) why these divergent contentions are believed, and (2) why they are incompatible and individually false. The first point is easy. Climatology has become a branch of politics. And in politics, particularly in our rambunctious democracy, statements asserted in the name of some political goal are usually believed or at least supported by those who share the goal. It is necessary for global-warming-of-doom to be true in order to attain the government’s goal (of increasing in size and power), so any statement which supports global warming is likely to be touted by government supporters, even mutually incompatible statements.

    Scientists — and some very big names indeed — who have made their living on government grants, and who provide arguments in line with the government’s desire that global-warming-of-doom be true, recently wrote a letter to the President and Attorney General asking these officials to criminally prosecute under the RICO Act scientists like myself and organizations that might fund me. Which scientists and organizations? Those, they say, who have “knowingly deceived the American people about the risks of climate change, as a means to forestall America’s response to climate change.”

    In other words, arguments put forth by independent scientists and organizations that do not support the government’s line cannot be considered science, but should instead be classified as criminal acts. Incidentally, it has come out that the scientist leading the effort to prosecute the innocent has “paid himself & his wife $1.5 million from gov’t climate grants for part-time work.” Climatology is thus a branch of politics. Quod erat demonstrandum.

    I’m no politician and can’t predict what will come of this. But I am a scientist and know good physics from bad. To understand why the claims about the atmosphere mentioned above are false, it is necessary to grasp, at least in broad outline, some rather complicated statistics and physics. Let’s try.

    Claim Number One: This Year Will Be The Hottest Ever
    The first claim is not only false, it is ludicrously false. It’s not even close to being true. There have been times in the history of the earth when it was much hotter. Here is a link to one estimate of the earth’s mean temperature over time.

    But haven’t atmospheric carbon dioxide levels risen over the past few decades? Yes, but here is another link with carbon dioxide levels plotted alongside temperature (see the second graph down at the link) showing how the two do not track each other and at times have even moved in opposite directions.

    Jurassic Period Hot Steamy JungleWe are now geologically in what is called the Quaternary Period, which is characterized by periodic cold snaps, which is to say, glaciations. Glaciers have come and glaciers have gone for more than two million years, and we expect they’ll continue to come and go mainly because of the way the earth wobbles and wends it way around the sun. Before the Quaternary was the Pliocene, and well before this was the better known (thanks, Hollywood!) Jurassic, which ran 145 to 200 million years ago. And before the Jurassic was the Triassic, extending back another 25 millions years.

    From the Triassic to the Quaternary, a time spanning more than 200 million years, the earth was hotter than it is now, and not just a little hotter, but downright steamy at times, with temperatures 10 or more degrees Celsius higher. It was so hot that the entire planet was green and fertile, and animals, you might recall, grew to tremendous size. Before the Triassic there were other periods, some of which more closely resembled ours in climate.

    The lesson to be learned from this is that the climate is never constant; it always has changed and always will. Stopping climate change is a human impossibility. I mean this word in its strict sense. There is no power short of Omnipotence that can stop the climate from changing. Certainly no government can. To plead, therefore, that we should stop climate change is not to engage in science, but politics.

    Above I said the linked picture represented an estimate of the temperature, and this is so. Thermometers didn’t exist in any reliable or widespread sense until the last 100 or so years of earth’s history, and even now these only cover a small fraction of the earth’s surface. And even in the modern era, the ways we have of measuring temperature have varied and still vary. Satellites, which provide some of the best, but still imperfect, global measurements have only existed about 50 years.

    That means if we want to know the temperature before 50-100 years ago, we have to guess. It’s not a blind guess, though, since we can use so-called “proxies.” These are chemical and physical measurements known to be correlated with air temperature. We can tally these over geologic times and plug them into a statistical model that predicts what the temperatures were. There is nothing wrong with this except for two things. Here it gets a bit technical.

    No statistical guess should be stripped of its uncertainty. We don’t want the temperature guess alone, we want it with a plus-or-minus the guess attached. The first problem is that these plus-and-minuses are almost always absent. The result is over-certainty in statements about what the past was compared with the present. Sometimes uncertainty in the temperature guesses is provided, but it’s the wrong kind of uncertainty, the wrong plus-or-minuses.

    All these statistical models have innards called parameters, which are nothing more than mathematical “dials” necessary for the equations to work out. Unfortunately, a fallacy has become ingrained in science that these parameters directly represent or are reality. This fallacy is so ubiquitous that I call it the Cult of the Parameter. The fallacy is harmful because the plus-and-minus bounds to reality are necessarily larger than the plus-or-minus bounds to model parameters (usually 4 to 8 times larger). The result is always dramatic over-certainty.

    And it’s still worse. The models take proxy measurements, but the uncertainty in the time those proxies were laid down in history is always discarded in the statistical models. How do you know the proxy you measured was 1.10 and not 1.11 million years ago? Answer: you don’t.

    The end result is to make temperature guesses appear smooth and uncomplicated, which is an illusion. That illusion makes it easier for (actually measured) temperatures in modern times to appear more variable. And that makes it easier to appear that we are hotter now, even if we’re not. Add to that the observations that modern records are continually being tweaked by scientists (and strangely always in a direction that makes it appears colder then and warmer now), and it’s no surprise to hear talk of “record temperatures.”

    Global Warming Polar Bear - 400Now if we only go by the satellite record, it’s quite easy to be in a “record-breaking” year, for the trivial reason that there only a few years on the books. Every year stands a good chance at breaking some kind of atmospheric record. But because of the entire geologic record, the chance of breaking real records is not even remote; it’s nearly impossible.

    Scientists know all these facts, yet some still make the statement that this year will be (or could be) the hottest. They say it while knowing it isn’t true. Why?

    (Those who want more technical detail can go here to learn about the BEST project’s statistical reconstruction of historical temperatures, which is touted to be the “best” but which commits the errors noted here.)

    Claim Number Two: Natural Variation Caused A “Pause”
    The American Meteorological Society is, or rather was, the preeminent organization for those who study weather and climate. Its official organ is known as BAMS, the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society. BAMS is used to impart news items of interest and the like, but it also publishes review articles on the state of science.

    Now the AMS has, like nearly all other government-money-dependent scientific organizations, given up all pretense of physics and has instead embraced politics as its raison d’etre. So far removed from its original mission is the AMS that they are publishing a BAMS review article by two non-scientist ideologues and one scientist who writes mostly about politics. The title is “The ‘Pause’ in Global Warming: Turning a Routine Fluctuation into a Problem for Science.”

    The authors are Stephan Lewandowsky, a psychologist who specializes in gimmicked surveys, Naomi Oreskes, a historian who believes in a vast right-wing conspiracy, and James Risbey, a real climatologist who spends much of his time wondering why everybody doesn’t agree with him (he has more than one paper with Lewandowsky and Oreskes on this theme).

    The point of this new paper is the same as all of Lewandowsky’s works. He wants to paint detractors of The Consensus as crazy or oil-industry stooges. For these authors, and for many, the mere fact that government-funded scientists have said a problem with the atmosphere exists and that only government can solve it is more than sufficient proof of the contention. Any who disagree must be doing so out of ignorance, insanity or evil intent. That their position on the science might be wrong never occurs to them.

    Satelite - 400And they are wrong. Their claim is that the (satellite) observed non-increase in global temperatures over the past two decades was caused by any or some combination of these: “natural variations,” El Niño, the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, “random” or “routine fluctuations” and the like. They say that if these “causes” did not exist, the temperatures would have increased just as they were predicted to under the theory of enhanced-feedback carbon-oxide-driven (EFCOD) global warming.

    Do you see the fallacy? They use the absence of predicted increases as proof the increases were really there, but in masked or modified form! To them, the repeated, consistent and egregiously mistaken predictions made by climate models are true no matter what because EFCOD global warming is true no matter what. It used to be in science that when a theory made predictions even as fractionally lousy as EFCOD global warming, it was quietly removed from service. But global warming can’t be dropped. There is too much riding on it remaining in force.

    And this is not the only or even the worst fallacy. Having faith in lovingly created but failed theories is an error, but it is an understandable human foible. No one wants to disown his child, no matter how ugly. Our response to a scientist who doesn’t want to give up his life’s work should be pity, not condemnation.

    But making statements physically impossible is not forgivable, not for those who call themselves physicists. The real blunder is this. Scientists claimed to understand how the atmosphere worked. Based on this understanding, they said that “disruptive,” “dangerous” global warming would soon be upon us. It didn’t happen. What went wrong? El Niño, they say.

    Climate Change - 400But El Niño, “natural fluctuations” and the like are not things separate from the atmosphere. They are part of the atmosphere. These things are nothing more than human-labels given to particular measures of the atmosphere. El Niño is not a primary cause, it is an effect, an observation. “Natural fluctuations” means “what the atmosphere does.” Thus it is a tautology, an observation empty of scientific content, to say “what the atmosphere does” caused “what the atmosphere did.”

    These “routine fluctuations” and the like are part of what the scientists said they already understood. They are not alien entities that arrive unexpectedly and upset theory; they are, or should have been, an integral part of EFCOD global-warming theory. These things are the atmosphere, they are the climate.

    It is thus clear that scientists who blame these phenomena for their failings don’t know what they are talking about. They said they understood the atmosphere, and here is proof they did not. So why should we continue to believe them when they say, “The time to act is now”?

    We now see that the word “pause” is a terrible misnomer, a circularity. It states what it seeks to prove. To say there is a “pause” is to claim that we know why the atmosphere is doing what it is doing. But if that were so, then the models over the past two decades would have made successful predictions. They made atrocious predictions, and they are growing worse. That means to say there is a “pause” is equivalent to we know global warming is there because we can’t see it.

    It is well past the time to move on from EFCOD global warming and return to doing real science.

    https://stream.org/climate-change-sp...warming-pause/
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    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


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  3. #2
    Nuh uhh, because...Facebook memes.

  4. #3
    Ugh! I can't even talk to "climate alarmists" anymore. I used to be able to at least try to convince them but they have beat me. They are the worst of the worst.
    Dishonest money makes for dishonest people.

    Andrew Napolitano, John Stossel. FOX News Liberty Infiltrators.


    Quote Originally Posted by Inkblots View Post
    Dr. Paul is living rent-free in the minds of the neocons, and for a fiscal conservative, free rent is always a good thing
    NOBP ≠ ABO

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    It is well past the time to move on from EFCOD global warming and return to doing real science.
    The problem is doing real science does not pay nearly as much as sucking the government's tit.

  6. #5
    Future college text books will just be print copies of FB memes.
    Dishonest money makes for dishonest people.

    Andrew Napolitano, John Stossel. FOX News Liberty Infiltrators.


    Quote Originally Posted by Inkblots View Post
    Dr. Paul is living rent-free in the minds of the neocons, and for a fiscal conservative, free rent is always a good thing
    NOBP ≠ ABO

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    The problem is doing real science does not pay nearly as much as sucking the government's tit.
    What's funny about this is, my friend has a Ph.D. from UofM and runs her own lab to research diabetes and she doesn't even make $20/hr. All the money goes to big $#@!s and they get screwed and yet they support the system that screws them tooth and nail. The people who work in science and are dependent on government grants to feed themselves are the epitome of willful ignorance.

    A guy I'm working with in robotics used to be an environmentalist DNR nut in Indiana and has a degree in environmental sciences of some sort from Michigan State. He told me just today about an experiment where they tied a moth to a tree to limits its mating rage so they could study some $#@! or another, I stopped listening quite honestly but it made me think. I've heard tons of stories about "shrimp on trampolines" and just thought to myself, this is ridiculous and here it is, right before my very eyes. This guy is voting for Bernie of course.

    I have to go take a shower now after putting that into words.
    Dishonest money makes for dishonest people.

    Andrew Napolitano, John Stossel. FOX News Liberty Infiltrators.


    Quote Originally Posted by Inkblots View Post
    Dr. Paul is living rent-free in the minds of the neocons, and for a fiscal conservative, free rent is always a good thing
    NOBP ≠ ABO

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by roho76 View Post
    Future college text books will just be print copies of FB memes.
    Perfect!
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by roho76 View Post
    Ugh! I can't even talk to "climate alarmists" anymore. I used to be able to at least try to convince them but they have beat me. They are the worst of the worst.
    "Never argue with stupid people climate alarmists. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Mark Twain
    The Bastiat Collection · FREE PDF · FREE EPUB · PAPER
    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      -- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      -- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    · tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·



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  11. #9
    In other words, arguments put forth by independent scientists and organizations that do not support the government’s line cannot be considered science, but should instead be classified as criminal acts. Incidentally, it has come out that the scientist leading the effort to prosecute the innocent has “paid himself & his wife $1.5 million from gov’t climate grants for part-time work.” Climatology is thus a branch of politics. Quod erat demonstrandum.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  12. #10
    Wait... so they are finally admitting there has been a global warming pause?? What happened to these establishment scientists arguing there was no pause?

    Their claim is that the (satellite) observed non-increase in global temperatures over the past two decades was caused by any or some combination of these: “natural variations,” El Niño, the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, “random” or “routine fluctuations” and the like.
    Blame it on El Nino!!! Ahhhahahahahahahahaha....
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  13. #11
    They aren't incompatible, if the pause is near the maximum of recorded temperatures. Let's say there is still a bit of wiggle within the pause trend line. If this was the hottest year of the pause, it would also be the hottest year ever.

    There is some evidence that scientists have been altering the data. I have some experience in taking raw data, and let me tell you that selection bias is a real thing. Let's say you get a number that looks way to low, nix that one re-do the experiment and hope for a more reasonable number. Let's say your experimental techniques were different between data batches. It's tempting to bump the data up from one batch to mesh with the other batch in order to "correct for the error". And then of course there's rounding error. Let's say I have a stopwatch and I click a time of 10.74. Well I'll probably just call that 10.5 because it took me some time to react and push the button in time.

    There's all sorts of little things like that, and if the person taking the data has an internal bias as to the result, you can get a very different answer than someone else doing the same experiment. I'm struggling to remember the story, but one of the most famous theories in Physics was "proven" correct. Unfortunately, it turned out that the data point which "proved" the theory was nothing more than a product of measurement bias. The later theory which overrode the old one mathematically proved the magnitude of the correction. This was an experiment that was reproduced many times by many different researchers, all of them published the fraudulent data point . Hilariously, as time went on, and the theory started looking less and less ironclad, in subsequent experiments the data point sloooowly crept it's way down to the correct value.

    People think that it's because the experimentalists didn't want to be embarrassed, so they "nudged" things just a little to get what they know they should have gotten.

    In the case of Global Warming, it's probably a lot worse than that. They are going through a crisis right now because their satellite data doesn't agree with their surface measurements. Also the historical data has been fiddled with a lot to provide "corrections" in order to get the "true" result. The strange thing is, all of the corrections are in the same direction, and make the present day rise look much steeper than it was before. You have to wonder how much these guys are motivated by funding, or simply ideology.

    I've seen the advertisements on campus: "Want to make a difference in the world? Study Climate Science!" They are not exactly recruiting objective scientists here, they are recruiting activists. These are the people making your measurements.
    Last edited by DevilsAdvocate; 09-26-2015 at 04:28 AM.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
    They aren't incompatible, if the pause is near the maximum of recorded temperatures. Let's say there is still a bit of wiggle within the pause trend line. If this was the hottest year of the pause, it would also be the hottest year ever.
    Well the premise I think may be mistaken, maybe they are claiming it is the hottest in recorded history (which may or may not be true), but he seems to be saying that it has been much hotter in pre-recorded history.

    The article, in general, is pretty good though.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  15. #13
    Claim Number One: This Year Will Be The Hottest Ever
    The first claim is not only false, it is ludicrously false. It’s not even close to being true. There have been times in the history of the earth when it was much hotter. Here is a link to one estimate of the earth’s mean temperature over time.
    Hottest in the history of the planet? Probably not. Hottest since we have been tracking modern temperatures? Looks likely.

    First half of this year was record hot one based on global temperatures. Second half is still in progress.

    https://www.climate.gov/news-feature...w-warmest-year





    El Nino?

    The strong El Niño event currently underway in the tropical Pacific Ocean is another leading indicator that 2015 may become the warmest year on record: El Niño events typically coincide with warm conditions globally.
    Will the trend hold up and stay the hottest year? Can it cool enough in the second half to negate the first half?

    Using the IPCC definitions, we would state that it is “extremely likely” that 2015 will eclipse 2014 as the warmest year on record. Based on the analyses presented above, the historical data suggest it would take a remarkable and abrupt reversal in the NOAAGlobalTemp time series over the remainder of the year to upend 2015’s drive toward record-breaking status. In other words, it appears extremely unlikely that 2015 will lose its commanding lead.
    As for climate change, a year or even several years of hot or colder weather is not enough to prove or disprove climate change. The theory is about long term- not short term- trends.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 09-26-2015 at 11:46 AM.

  16. #14

    VANISHED GLOBAL WARMING may NOT RETURN – UK Met Office

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/09...uk_met_office/



    But it might. Hey, we don't know, we're the Met Office

    There hasn't actually been any global warming for the last fifteen years or so - this much is well known. But is this just a temporary hiccup set to end soon? A new report from the UK's weather bureau says it just might not be.

    The Met Office boffins believe that, yes, a long-expected El Nino is at last starting up in the Pacific. This will probably mean warming. The Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO), another hefty Pacific mechanism, also looks set to bring some heat.

    But, no doubt upsettingly for some, there's a third and very powerful factor to consider: the mighty Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation (AMO).

    The AMO has actually been heating the world up since the mid-1990s - though not strongly enough to raise temperatures - but now it looks set to swing into a negative phase and cool the planet off, probably for a long time, as AMO phases typically last several decades. The Met Office's new report (pdf), just out today, has this to say about the AMO:

    The current warm phase is now 20 years long and historical precedent suggests a return to relatively cool conditions could occur within a few years ... Observational and model estimates further suggest AMO shifts have an effect on global mean near-surface temperatures of about 0.1°C. A rapid AMO decline could therefore maintain the current slowdown in global warming ...

    The Met Office doesn't care for phrases such as "hiatus" or even "pause" to describe the absence of global warming for the last fifteen years or so: it describes the flat temperatures as a "slowdown".

    But it's all the same thing. One should note that the Met Office report is strongly hedged – its title even ends in a question mark, in the style of headlines-to-which-the-answer-is-no.

    But it isn't just the Met Office that believes the AMO may be headed into a cold spell. Scientists studying Atlantic hurricanes have noted that these massive storms have been mostly less common and less powerful in recent years, and the suggestion is that this trend may be set to continue, with the underlying mechanism being a switch in the AMO to a negative phase.

    Meanwhile, it appears quite possible that 2015 will be a record warm year globally – though not in Europe or America. However, as NASA climate chief Gavin Schmidt pointed out in 2013, "one more year of numbers isn't in itself significant".

    Just as it took quite a few years before the hiatus could be said to be ongoing, it will require several years of climbing temperatures before it can be said to be over.

    Those climbing temperatures may be imminent - but quite possibly not. ®

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post

    As for climate change, a year or even several years of hot or colder weather is not enough to prove or disprove climate change. The theory is about long term- not short term- trends.


    Anyone who thinks they can predict long-term climate change simply proves their ignorance of chaos theory and epistemology.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

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  18. #16
    I think it is the volcanoes heating the joint up. But don't worry when Yellowstone blows things will cool back down.



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  20. #17
    What would it take, honestly, to convince you folks that anthropogenic climate change is real?

    And because I know most of you will not answer the question and instead pose the same question to me, about denying it, I will 'trump' that with an answer:

    I would rethink my position if a viable answer to the reason why there is a significant rise of atmospheric carbon dioxide from 1900 was given that included a study that was both testable and falsifiable.

    Sometimes I think the people who hate the science of it, do so because they fear the reactions and responses to the reality. The argument about what to do about climate change is where you should make your stand, arguing the science is ... really, really bad looking.


    The last time atmospheric CO2 was at this level was 129 million years ago. It took over 60 millions years to change from 485 ppmv to 385 ppmv. It took 150 years to go from 280 ppmv to nearly 400 ppmv.

    This is fact. This is damning. There is not much movement to go in any direction from this...

    "The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."

    -Bertrand Russell


    I received positive rep for extreme sarcasm from a person who thought I was serious ... please look up Poe's Law

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kade View Post

    The last time atmospheric CO2 was at this level was 129 million years ago. It took over 60 millions years to change from 485 ppmv to 385 ppmv. It took 150 years to go from 280 ppmv to nearly 400 ppmv.
    Where is the evidence of CO2 levels 129 million years ago? Or 60 million years ago?

    Here's the challenge - state your claim in a proper scientific form. That means it must be theoretically falsifiable. For example, you might say "all measurements of earth and its atmosphere show a steady increase in temperature." That's a proper statement in that it can be falsified, but it is also demonstrably not true. Or you might say "all warming trends on earth and its atmosphere are caused solely by human activity." I think that can be falsified by measured increases in solar output, by demonstrating that the earth has had warming phases in the past before human activity and that other planets, presumably lacking human habitation, are undergoing warming now. But at least those are proper scientific statements.

    Now when you say "The earth is now warming because of human activity" that is not really a proper scientific statement because it cannot be falsified no matter what evidence is brought to bear.

    So, make a proper, falsifiable scientific statement and let's talk about it.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kade View Post
    The last time atmospheric CO2 was at this level was 129 million years ago. It took over 60 millions years to change from 485 ppmv to 385 ppmv. It took 150 years to go from 280 ppmv to nearly 400 ppmv.

    This is fact. This is damning. There is not much movement to go in any direction from this...
    We do not need to go back that far. What is your explanation for lack of temperature increase between 1940 and 1980 despite raising CO2 levels ??? Have you ever looked at the actual data from the last 100 years ?

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    So, make a proper, falsifiable scientific statement and let's talk about it.
    Current levels of Carbon Dioxide are close to 400 ppmv (source)


    From 1751-1900 12 gigatonnes of carbon dioxide release from carbon from the burning of fossil fuels.

    From 1901-2015 that number is 337 gigatonnes. (Raw Data Source)

    Airborne Fraction is the ratio of the increase in atmospheric Carbon Dioxide, counting for removed emissions from biosphere and water bodies.
    Humans are emitting ~30 million tonnes of carbon into the atmosphere a year. 43% remains in the atmosphere, accounting for the Airborne Fraction, net CO2 is highest it has been in at least 15 million years, and net CO2 is SIGNIFICANTLY higher since 1950 (Source) (source)(source)
    Last edited by Kade; 09-28-2015 at 01:04 PM.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    We do not need to go back that far. What is your explanation for lack of temperature increase between 1940 and 1980 despite raising CO2 levels ??? Have you ever looked at the actual data from the last 100 years ?
    Global temperature increased between 1915-2015 (100 years being your marker), in science we normally don't take a block of data randomly if we are trying to help us understand a trend. That your have arbitrarily chosen 1940-1980 (the only period of time where average bumped down, because of the 1940 fluke spike) shows that you have not yourself "Looked at the actual data". (raw source)

    Wherever you got the arbitrary excitement over the 1940-1980 data is not a source that should be celebrated or taken seriously. The equivalent would be if I only took the same chunk in span say 1975-2015 to show an enormous trend towards warming, it is not accurate, and does not give a good estimate, and no fair minded person upon seeing this data set would agree. The argument of global temperature increasing is not even debated among serious skeptics.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Kade View Post
    Current levels of Carbon Dioxide are close to 400 ppmv (source)


    From 1751-1900 12 gigatonnes of carbon dioxide release from carbon from the burning of fossil fuels.

    From 1901-2015 that number is 337 gigatonnes. (Raw Data Source)

    Airborne Fraction is the ration of the increase in atmospheric Carbon Dioxide, counting for removed emissions from biosphere and water bodies.
    Humans are emitting ~30 million tonnes of carbon into the atmosphere a year. 43% remains in the atmosphere, accounting for the Airborne Fraction, net CO2 is highest it has been in at least 15 million years, and net CO2 is SIGNIFICANTLY higher since 1950 (Source) (source)(source)
    I won't dispute your figures for release. I DO question where you think you get reliable data for CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere 15 million years ago. Care to share?

    In any event, CO2 concentration does not necessarily equal global warming. If you were to proffer as your scientific statement that "increases in CO2 concentration always lead to increases in global temperature in a linear or otherwise predictable way." That statement would be falsified by the universal failure of climate scientists to make such predictions.

    So what IS your scientific statement of global warming?
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Kade View Post
    Global temperature increased between 1915-2015 (100 years being your marker), in science we normally don't take a block of data randomly if we are trying to help us understand a trend. That your have arbitrarily chosen 1940-1980 (the only period of time where average bumped down, because of the 1940 fluke spike) shows that you have not yourself "Looked at the actual data". (raw source)

    Wherever you got the arbitrary excitement over the 1940-1980 data is not a source that should be celebrated or taken seriously. The equivalent would be if I only took the same chunk in span say 1975-2015 to show an enormous trend towards warming, it is not accurate, and does not give a good estimate, and no fair minded person upon seeing this data set would agree. The argument of global temperature increasing is not even debated among serious skeptics.
    And no serious scientist makes the mistake of assuming climate should be stable when it never has been in even short geological time frames. So what?
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    I won't dispute your figures for release. I DO question where you think you get reliable data for CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere 15 million years ago. Care to share?

    In any event, CO2 concentration does not necessarily equal global warming. If you were to proffer as your scientific statement that "increases in CO2 concentration always lead to increases in global temperature in a linear or otherwise predictable way." That statement would be falsified by the universal failure of climate scientists to make such predictions.

    So what IS your scientific statement of global warming?
    I don't have a 'scientific statement of global warming', nor am I quite sure what should be done about climate change, I leave that up to you guys, the liberty policy experts.

    The sentences I wrote, which took me all lunch btw =P, were scientifically stated... if you wanted to get more technical we could try to prove the null hypothesis.

    The argument about CO2 not equaling temperate is accurate but highly misleading. There is in fact correlation between temperature and co2, (when accounting for water vapor) (source Massive List of Papers.

    The reason for the lagging equivalency ( like the year 2007) is because of a mechanism called climate variability, or a form of internal variability for statisticians. It is really just a short term variance that equals out after long term trend is analyzed. The long term trend is a solid, undeniable correlation of CO2 net levels and Global temperature increasing.

    I know why you guys are skeptical, perhaps we could just loosen up a bit and accept that this isn't some sort of government conspiracy, and that nobody really knows what to do about the problem. You are always free to say that climate change is real, and you would rather just ignore it.

    "The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."

    -Bertrand Russell


    I received positive rep for extreme sarcasm from a person who thought I was serious ... please look up Poe's Law



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kade View Post
    The last time atmospheric CO2 was at this level was 129 million years ago. It took over 60 millions years to change from 485 ppmv to 385 ppmv. It took 150 years to go from 280 ppmv to nearly 400 ppmv.

    This is fact. This is damning. There is not much movement to go in any direction from this...
    That's bull$#@!, the last time CO2 levels were higher than today was during the Medieval Warming period.. when temps were also higher than they are today.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    And no serious scientist makes the mistake of assuming climate should be stable when it never has been in even short geological time frames. So what?
    Climate change is occurring at a rate significantly faster than even the most destructive rates of change in Earth's history. The ends of the Permian, Triassic and mid-Cambrian rates of change were on par, and all of those directly led to mass extinction events.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    That's bull$#@!, the last time CO2 levels were higher than today was during the Medieval Warming period.. when temps were also higher than they are today.
    The Medieval Warm period saw unusual temperature increases in some areas (causes being solar radiation and low volcanic activity), but overall the planet was cooler than currently. Global temperatures are warmer than they have been during the last 2,000 years. (Source)

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kade View Post
    Global temperature increased between 1915-2015 (100 years being your marker), in science we normally don't take a block of data randomly if we are trying to help us understand a trend. That your have arbitrarily chosen 1940-1980 (the only period of time where average bumped down, because of the 1940 fluke spike) shows that you have not yourself "Looked at the actual data". (raw source)

    Wherever you got the arbitrary excitement over the 1940-1980 data is not a source that should be celebrated or taken seriously. The equivalent would be if I only took the same chunk in span say 1975-2015 to show an enormous trend towards warming, it is not accurate, and does not give a good estimate, and no fair minded person upon seeing this data set would agree. The argument of global temperature increasing is not even debated among serious skeptics.
    You do not understand formal logic. You are trying to prove the following conjecture - "CO2 increase always causes temperature increase" - then for me to disprove this statement it is sufficient to find one counterexample, which I just gave you, the period from 1940 to 1980. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univer...ation#Negation in case you missed that class in school.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Where is the evidence of CO2 levels 129 million years ago? Or 60 million years ago?
    Sorry, I forgot to answer this one. There are multiple ways to measures gas levels from different periods of time. One of the best ways is to
    measure the level in gas bubbles trapped in ice sheets. Carbon and Boron isotope half-life measurements from sediment is also very accurate. Other methods I believe include identifying structures in fossilized leaves that can give an estimation (stomata).

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    You do not understand formal logic. You are trying to prove the following conjecture - "CO2 increase always causes temperature increase" - then for me to disprove this statement it is sufficient to find one counterexample, which I just gave you, the period from 1940 to 1980. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univer...ation#Negation in case you missed that class in school.
    I never said or 'conjectured' that "CO2 increase always causes temperature increase", I said there was a correlation, which is a broad statistical relationship involving dependence. It is important that you maintain focus here and it is probably best to avoid debating logical fallacies with me, because I love to haunt threads looking for people who want to use them against me.

    Stay on topic, and avoid the dark pathways my friend, you can do this, I believe in you.

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