The VW “Scandal”

[phill4paul]

Ten percent?

That's more than generous.

Nobody will touch these cars in the second hand market now.

Our re-sale value is shot, kaput.

That's the government for you, always looking out for your best interests.

[Kade]

Alright. Is the core of this beef confined to the fact that regulations forced the hand of VW to cheat, and that ultimately those regulations are -- (insert common core RPF lingo)? Sure, I'll concede the regulatory points all the way up to Valhalla, fine. The fact remains that cheating is a divergence outside the boundary, independent of whatever boundary system you choose. VW chose to create a proprietary hack of their emissions system, (protected by some questionable IP law on the software) for the sole reason to pass emissions test to gain advantage in a competitive market (remember, ignoring whatever boundary we chose).

This has always been my MAJOR concern. In any competitive system, the boundaries are stretched and rocked until equilibrium is achieved. This is a pure cybernetica principle, and the math works in all sciences, especially evolutionary. Equilibrium in the human sense is normally achieved through dominance of one group or individual. Entirely sub-optimal to our shared political and societal goals.. (for most of us)...

So back to the cars. VW cheated. Regardless of the reasoning why, cheating must be punished in our society (to a nominal level of appropriateness), less we are willing to concede other unimaginary points about the human condition and, well, game theory in general.

[Kade]

Are the emission standards for a passenger VW the same as they are for other vehicles like big rigs, pick-ups, various construction vehicles, buses, gardening equipment, etc?

The emissions standards are the same for all vehicles in their class. Which is why the software built into the OBD was cheating.

[Working Poor]

Follow the money. VW gives less than 10% of the amount other car companies pay to politicians in political donations.

That's all. It's about setting up a regulatory state to punish those who don't pay up. Legal extortion at its best.

They are just doing what they have to do.

[Anti Federalist]

So back to the cars. VW cheated. Regardless of the reasoning why, cheating must be punished in our society (to a nominal level of appropriateness), less we are willing to concede other unimaginary points about the human condition and, well, game theory in general.

Yeah, in the manner that a peck on the cheek from your secretary is "cheating" on your wife.

We're not talking hookers and blow cheating, making cars that are deliberately and definably dangerous lets say.

Western jurisprudence always had as one its guiding principle: the punishment fits the crime.

In these days of asset forfeiture, "three strikes", mandatory minimums and drug warriors, that has gone out the window.

Thus you have the possibility for 18 BILLION in fines for regulatory "work arounds".

Hi Kade, by the way.

[osan]

I don't see the problem here. I see no problem with adjusting the engines to give the best readings at idle during test. It's all a load of $#@! anyway.

It seems we are overdue for a near-extinction event because humanity is just to stupid to continue as its current average mental constitution stands. I say knock the $#@!ers back to the hunter-gatherer stage and start over. This all is just stupid, anymore.

[dannno]

So back to the cars. VW cheated. Regardless of the reasoning why, cheating must be punished in our society (to a nominal level of appropriateness), less we are willing to concede other unimaginary points about the human condition and, well, game theory in general.

The Jews who escaped concentration camps cheated, too.

[phill4paul]

I don't see the problem here. I see no problem with adjusting the engines to give the best readings at idle during test. It's all a load of $#@! anyway.

It seems we are overdue for a near-extinction event because humanity is just to stupid to continue as its current average mental constitution stands. I say knock the $#@!ers back to the hunter-gatherer stage and start over. This all is just stupid, anymore.

But, but, then we'd have to cook over fires that would destroy the ozone.

[Danke]

Ten percent?

That's more than generous.

Nobody will touch these cars in the second hand market now.

Our re-sale value is shot, kaput.

And such a sweet ride.


Buy 'merican next time.

[dannno]

It's even easier than that. EPA simply orders States with Clean Air Act primacy to require proof of the mods. Then I will need to show proof in order to get my emissions cert, which is needed to update my tags. I don't see any way around it. The EPA wants to savage VW. I have seen first hand EPA using innocent parties as tools to get at their real target. EPA will hurt the owners of the vehicles so the owners will turn around and sue VW.

So what is the diminution in value to my vehicle from having its performance and economy significantly diminshed? I should think it would be at least ten percent of the value. Let's say a thousand dollars. Now multiply that by millions of vehicles. The civil liability to VW is potantially in the billions.

Like $18 billion maybe? Of course the government gets to keep that

[dannno]

Instead of fining VW, they should just make them install cat piss injectors on all the cars and give the owners some small amount of money to deal with it all and possible downfall from the ruling..

I mean, my solution would just be to abolish the EPA, but as far as staying within the current paradigm..

[Anti Federalist]

And such a sweet ride.

Buy 'merican next time.

Yeah, like a Honda.

[limequat]

I don't know.
I think a large contigent of TDI buyers are the mileage at any cost type. Emissions? Don't care. Slow? Don't care. Sounds funny? Don't care. Get 50 mpg on the freeway? YES PLEASE!

I think after the EPA has their way with the TDIs, there's gonna be a huge demand to revert them back to the way they were.

A gent mentioned to me that there might be a some money to be had in buying California cars (emissions testing) and selling them in Michigan (no emissions testing).

Ten percent?

That's more than generous.

Nobody will touch these cars in the second hand market now.

Our re-sale value is shot, kaput.

[limequat]

Also...who will be the first to test the Chevy Cruise in real world conditions? Why wasn't it test to compare against the VWs?

[pcosmar]

FU obama administration.

dear fatjohn

It goes far beyond Obama.
It goes to the same folks that infected Europe with Socialism. Who then infected the US.

[osan]

Alright. Is the core of this beef confined to the fact that regulations forced the hand of VW to cheat

FORCED? How do you reason?

Sure, I'll concede the regulatory points all the way up to Valhalla, fine.

Very generous of you.

The fact remains that cheating is a divergence outside the boundary, independent of whatever boundary system you choose.

Let us assume this to be a valid description of "cheating". Now consider the fact that VW did not CHOOSE the system. Rather, it was foisted upon them by dolts and dullards of the lowest cast; men of ignorance and almost certain corruption who were empowered by purest usurpation to make decisions for all, against all rationally justifiable and morally credible principle. *I* surely did not choose it, and while I will not speak for anyone else in particular, I will state with strong confidence that the same may be said for a very significant proportion of the of the nation. Of that last bit I hold zero doubt.

Given that we did not choose the system; given that it was forced upon us by threat and strong-arming; given that it was imposed with less than zero authority beyond the muzzle of the gun, I would have to thereby conclude that VW is in no possible way assessable as being guilty per your assertion. Your assertion carries the same credibility as the one that concludes that you are a murderer when you slay a cop who is attempting to arrest you at the end of a pistol where he has no just cause for so doing. Just as self-defense <> murder, evading the drag-inducing stupidity of governmental tyranny is in no conceivable way "cheating".

QED.

VW chose to create a proprietary hack of their emissions system,

And may God put his blessings upon them for having done so.

(protected by some questionable IP law on the software)

FAIL that smacks of strawmanery. The point is utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand and serves but one purpose: to prejudice the reader by poisoning the well. In a court of law you would be spanked for this and, given a competent and honest judge, would be given an unequivocal warning about jail time if you did such a thing a second time, not to mention a possible mis-trial declaration.

for the sole reason to pass emissions test to gain advantage in a competitive market (remember, ignoring whatever boundary we chose).

Yeah - note your own adjectival massaging of "market" - COMPETITIVE. I once again heap praise upon VW for taking the initiative and remind you of your grotesque FAIL in asserting VW chose the system in question. FAIL FAIL ULTRA-ÜBER-FAIL.

This has always been my MAJOR concern.

As would only be expected of a dyed-in-the-wool statist.

In any competitive system, the boundaries are stretched and rocked until equilibrium is achieved.

This may be acceptable, so far as it goes. The statement, however, does not quite go far enough, but let us see where you take the broader discussion.

This is a pure cybernetica principle,

A what? I've been in "cybernetics" for over 30 years, have taught graduate-level comp. sci. courses at university, and yet I have no idea of what it is to which you here refer. Care to explain?

and the math works in all sciences, especially evolutionary.

Either this means something and I'm just not smart enough, or you're waving your hands a mite.

Equilibrium in the human sense is normally achieved through dominance of one group or individual.

Is it?

Entirely sub-optimal to our shared political and societal goals.. (for most of us)...

The hell? "shared political and societal goals"? The fact that the world is at its own throat on a thousand fronts speaking most eloquently to the point that the goals of which you appear to refer are not shared by very many. They are shoved down our throats in the manner of a hung porno-stud shoving it down the throat of his "co-star". Anyone thinking the poor lass is loving every inch has got to be a blind and hopelessly corrupt idiot, believing what he wants so he can successfully complete his stropping action at the expense of some poor stooge who got herself into far more than she dreamed would be part of the bargain.

One of the most fundamental problems of the race of men today is the virtually total absence of knowledge of what should be shared in such terms as you address. We don't think in terms of "breathing" and "beating hearts", but of whether vanilla ice cream should be mandated and chocolate banned. Shared political and societal goals, my ass. 99.999% of the race of men know nothing of what should qualify as such. Their "intellectual" lives along these lines are lived like bad acid trips.

So back to the cars. VW cheated.

By your own words and implied definition, given above, they most definitely did NOT.

Regardless of the reasoning why, cheating must be punished in our society

Oh well, in that case let me get on my jack-boots and practice my goose-stepping. ZFH! (Zieg $#@!ing Heil! - and yes, I know Sieg is the proper spelling, having once been a very fluent speaker of German)

"Cheating must be punished..." Says who? You? Please.

(to a nominal level of appropriateness),

Uh huh... and who will determine propriety here?

less we are willing to concede other unimaginary [sic] points about the human condition and, well, game theory in general.

Oh, so now we bring Nash into the fray? To what end?

[helmuth_hubener]

I don't see the problem here. I see no problem with adjusting the engines to give the best readings at idle during test. It's all a load of $#@! anyway.

It seems we are overdue for a near-extinction event because humanity is just to stupid to continue as its current average mental constitution stands. I say knock the $#@!ers back to the hunter-gatherer stage and start over. This all is just stupid, anymore.

You just don't realize how stupid we were before, or you probably wouldn't say that!

It took thousands of years of breeding for intelligence for Europe to get smart enough to come up with the Industrial Revolution. You want to throw that away and bet on it happening again... in a few thousand years? I don't. It took a lot of work to get to where we're at. A ton of work. A ton of patience. A ton of wisdom. Let's not throw that all away. Let's build on it.

[helmuth_hubener]

I mean, my solution would just be to abolish the EPA, but as far as staying within the current paradigm..

The is no solution within the "current paradigm."

The solution is just what you say:
abolish the tyrant E.P.A.!

[Anti Federalist]

The is no solution within the "current paradigm."

The solution is just what you say:
abolish the tyrant E.P.A.!

This!

No Regulation without Representation.

[helmuth_hubener]

Right! Who are these people? Who do they think they are? No elections. No accountability. No Constitutional authority. And yet, once in they're in for life and they can just decree whatever they want.

And we're supposed to go along with it?

We're supposed to pretend this is OK?

[phill4paul]

Right! Who are these people? Who do they think they are? No elections. No accountability. No Constitutional authority. And yet, once in they're in for life and they can just decree whatever they want.

And we're supposed to go along with it?

We're supposed to pretend this is OK?

You're supposed to do more than pretend. You're supposed to participate by funding.

And I do like the word "supposed."

adjective
generally assumed or believed to be the case, but not necessarily so.

[Lindsey]

Am I the only who heard this news story and had the first thought was positive toward VW? I was like, "Hell yeah. If they are making getting through emissions easier on me, sweet!" Everyone else in the room just looked at me funny.

[acptulsa]

The emissions standards are the same for all vehicles in their class. Which is why the software built into the OBD was cheating.

It's also why only Volkswagen even attempted to sell a diesel-powered vehicle in that (or any passenger car) class on these shores. Which admittedly makes them the ones who sell the loudest, most foul-smelling new passenger cars. And might make them the ones who sell the passenger cars most likely to put out actual deadly toxins. And certainly makes these cars the ones most likely to cause acid rain under any circumstances, since sodium is an element found in diesel oil and almost nonexistent in gasoline.

It also makes Volkswagen the company doing the most to curb carbon dioxide emissions (not a deadly toxin, or in any way limited by the EPA auto emissions regulations). And the company doing the most to help us cut our dependence on foreign oil that we keep dropping emissions-unregulated bombs on the middle east in order to obtain. All of this pertains directly to diesel engines. And if you'll notice, no one is accusing Volkswagen of cheating in this way with the engine management systems of their gasoline-powered products.

Now. Is this situation sparking any intelligent conversation on these matters? Do the powers that be have any intention of discussing these matters in any kind of a rational way? Will the media ever stop talking about Kareashians and Donald Trump's combover long enough to address this? And if not, then would not any liberal consider this a ripe moment for civil disobedience? And since VW did this only with their diesels and not their gas-powered products, would not this count as civil disobedience?

[osan]

Right! Who are these people? Who do they think they are? No elections. No accountability. No Constitutional authority. And yet, once in they're in for life and they can just decree whatever they want.

And we're supposed to go along with it?

We're supposed to pretend this is OK?

According to Themme, that is precisely what we are supposed to do.

Now, in practical terms, how do you propose we proceed such that we do not only fight Themme, but prevail? Without serious violence, I see little to no possibility. Why? Because Theye are now of a mindset such that they appear to hold our desires, pleadings, demands, whatever you wish to call them, as irrelevancies - just as if they did not exist.

Do you believe the Congress is going to abolish EPA? I suppose it is possible, but I also suppose the possibility is vanishingly thin. So, if Theye simply ignore us, which always seems to be the case, save in the truer irrelevancies like certain groups rioting and carrying on like imbeciles, what do you think people should materially do - that is, actually go out and execute in terms of real-deal, physical action? Protest? Have a love in? A hate-in? Have mass sex in the streets? Riot? What?

[helmuth_hubener]

Now, in practical terms, how do you propose we proceed such that we do not only fight Themme, but prevail?
What do you think people should materially do - that is, actually go out and execute in terms of real-deal, physical action? Protest? Have a love in? A hate-in? Have mass sex in the streets? Riot? What?

One sentence answer: You just ignore everything that’s stuck in a government quagmire and just create a new system.

One word answer: Entrepreneurship.

That's my own personal strategy.

[helmuth_hubener]

That is my favorite kind of question, by the way. It's the kind of question we should be asking ourselves and talking about a lot more often.

There's not just one answer either, by the way. Entrepreneurship is great, but is not for everyone. Certainly protests and education I would applaud and support. For people interested in that, I would suggest that Humor is a highly powerful and grossly underused tool we have at our disposal. If you are funny: be a hero and use it! Make us laugh! Your country will be forever grateful.

[osan]

You just don't realize how stupid we were before, or you probably wouldn't say that!

Who was stupid, and before what, exactly?

It took thousands of years of breeding for intelligence for Europe to get smart enough to come up with the Industrial Revolution.

The value of the IR is questionable, at the minimum. It is eminently arguable as well, so far as I can see.

You want to throw that away and bet on it happening again... in a few thousand years?

Do words to the effect of "I would like to see..." appear anywhere in that post? I wrote that IT SEEMS. Drawing a possible conclusion based on observed facts is a pretty far cry from expressing desire in this case. Do I want to return to hunter-gather mode? Not 100% sure, but probably not.

It took a lot of work to get to where we're at.

It also took a lot of tyranny to hold us back for thousands of years. I hope you realize that the IR became possible only after the enlightenment pretty well cut the balls off the church in the sense the Rome no longer held to sort of sway over men that could prevent them from inquiry and invention. Prior to, those bastards of the Holy See burned at the stake almost everyone and anyone who dared wander off the parochial plantation. Gallileo came frighteningly close to snuffing it. Did not Copernicus also dodge a pope's bullet by a hair's breadth when he challenged the Ptolemaic cosmology? They were some of the lucky ones. The church slaughtered millions of people for little or no valid reason, save that they sniffed past the wire.

A ton of work. A ton of patience. A ton of wisdom. Let's not throw that all away. Let's build on it.

Yes yes... sure. Now, how are we to do it in a world that is rapidly falling into a new Dark Age where the high priest forbids any path leading to sensible empowerment of the individual?

[helmuth_hubener]

Who was stupid, and before what, exactly?

Humans were more stupid, before now. Go back to 20,000 BC and try to have an intelligent conversation.

The value of the IR is questionable, at the minimum. It is eminently arguable as well, so far as I can see.

I see it as immensely good and wonderful. An astounding achievement of the human mind and will. Finally we were able to escape the Malthusian trap.

The alternative is the elimination and starvation of the vast, vast bulk of humanity, and then the bare subsistence poverty of the few remaining, in perpetuity, forever. No, it is not at all arguable, in my opinion. I will leave the arguing against the Industrial Revolution to the insane.

Do words to the effect of "I would like to see..." appear anywhere in that post?

Yes. You wrote "I say knock [humanity] back to the hunter-gatherer stage and start over." That would seem to be a recommendation. I am glad to see you now say: "Do I want to return to hunter-gather mode? Not 100% sure, but probably not." That seems a far more reasonable, less insane, position.

I hope you realize that the IR became possible only...

I am happy to hear your explanation of how and why the Industrial Revolution came to occur. My own historical interpretation may differ, but that probably doesn't matter.

Yes yes... sure. Now, how are we to do it in a world that is rapidly falling into a new Dark Age where the high priest forbids any path leading to sensible empowerment of the individual?

I offered two suggestions: entrepreneurship and humor.

Forming libertarian communities would be one more. Would you be interested in moving to a small township or county if 2,000 other liberty-lovers were also moving there, osan?

[loveshiscountry]

I bet there is a third party that sells similar software. Wish I thought of it first.

[Anti Federalist]

The Mushroom Cloud Expands

http://ericpetersautos.com/2015/09/2...cloud-expands/

by eric • September 25, 2015

Well, there’s good and bad news wafting upward from the immolation of Volkswagen over its now-public end-running of the EPA’s preposterously over-strict emissions rigmarole.

First, the good news:

* The affected vehicles actually run better than they would have, had VW not “recalibrated” the software that runs the computer that controls the operation of the engines in these vehicles.

They get higher mileage – and give better performance.

The last time something like this happened – that I know about – was back in 1973, when GM’s Pontiac division (RIP) tried to slip the high-performance SD-455 V8 (destined for the Trans-Am) under the EPA’s radar by including this de-tuned race engine within the already-approved “family” of ordinary 455 V8s, even though the SD shared almost no parts (in particular, its high-performance camshaft) with ordinary, run-of-the-mill 455s. EPA found out – and Pontiac got “busted.”

But back then, people cheered Pontiac.

And boo’d the EPA.

You will probably be able to score a sweet deal on a new diesel-powered VW. As the mushroom cloud expands, the fallout will rain on VW dealerships all across the country. Cars that commanded full MSRP – plus some – just a week ago will be discounted heavily in the very near future, if this disaster is not contained.

Keep in mind, the vehicles are in no way “bad” vehicles (unlike, say, the epically awful GM diesels of the early 1980s) but the negative publicity will create that impression and the cars stand a very good chance of becoming pariahs. Which will benefit people smart enough to see past the know-nothing hysterics and pick one up at a fire sale price.

The “scandal” may expose the lunacy of current federal regulations – which have gone from reasonable to ridiculous.

The media is not explaining to people that the emissions in question amount to fractions of a percent of the total exhaust volume; nor that these cars meet very strict (just not insane) European standards. Perhaps people will begin to comprehend that a fractional difference in emissions output is not that big a deal – especially when the “affected” vehicle actually uses less fuel – which (think about it) means it produces a lesser volume of total exhaust gasses.

Perhaps people will ask why it is that American buyers are denied access to 60 MPG diesel cars that are commonly available in western Europe, where the air seems to be quite breathable and people are not walking around wearing surgical masks or hooked up to oxygen tanks…

Now, for the bad.

If you already own a VW, its value – like the value of the VW itself – just took a nosedive. Cars that just a week ago held their value better than most are now losing value like a rusted-out ’01 Aztek with 149,000 miles on the clock. People who financed a VW could find themselves owing more on the car than the car is worth – before they’ve paid the thing off. And people looking to buy a used VW can expect to pay higher interest on their loans, as interest rates are based on retail values.VW execs

But the really bad news is that VW – the company – now faces the possibility of what could prove to be one of the largest class-action lawsuits ever. Potentially, every person who owns a VW – whether it’s a diesel or not – could claim they’ve been defrauded (see above in re resale/depreciation) and seek compensation. We’re talking millions of people – and possibly, billions of dollars. On top of what the government is going to do VW.

Worst case, VW goes out of business. This could happen. (The Explorer/Firestone tire fiasco of the ’90s almost killed Ford – and that fiasco was of much lesser magnitude than this one.) Millions of people could lose their jobs. Not just directly (those employed in VW plants and dealerships) but also indirectly (suppliers and so on) whose business will go away if VW does.

If you own an “affected” vehicle, the government is probably – almost certainly – going to insist that you bring it in for “fixing.” It will be returned to you “fixed,” all right. It will use more fuel – and not perform as well – once recalibrated to pass muster with Uncle.

And if you resist (which is futile), the government will probably resort to nastiness such as denying you renewal of your vehicle registration, rendering the vehicle effectively useless to you.

This nastiness is likely to expand beyond VWs, too.

In a way, it already has.

Word inside the business is that Mazda – which had promised a new line of “Sky-D” diesel engines for models like the CX-5 crossover and the Mazda3 sedan – has decided to forget it because of the near-impossibility of complying with Uncle’s edicts while also managing to deliver the mileage and performance customers expect.

Mazda will sell the Sky-D engine outside the U.S., where policies are less insane.

But that’s of no particular help to us.

Also, expect “smog checks” to become more onerous – as EPA stomps around and demands “stricter” enforcement mechanisms.

The words of Rahm Emmanuel spring to mind:

Never let a good crisis go to waste.