Conversation w/Trump supporter (my uncle)

[fcreature]

A bit of background first.

I've been arguing with my uncle since 2007 about politics, when I first learned about Ron Paul. He's owned several small businesses over the years. He has been a life long Republican. He is involved in small ways with the local Republican Party and often donates to local candidates. You can say he is well known and certainly talks to a lot of other Republicans in my area. He is a self described tea party member and conservative. In 2012 he was a big fan of Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum. He ended up voting for Romney. In 2008 Rudy Giuliani was his man. He never liked Ron Paul in 2008, always citing the classic excuses like "he can't win", "he's an isolationist", and "he's too kooky". I can say, without hesitation, that he hates what the government has been doing and from the way he speaks you would genuinely think he was a libertarian(ish) conservative. And as I'm sure you can guess, he is a hard core Trump fan this year. Before Trump he was a HUGE Ted Cruz fan.

So of course I talked to him today about the debate last night. I thought I would share some of the insights from this conversation.

First, he agreed that Trump looked petty and unpresidential based off his performance last night. He specifically pointed out his comment about Rand in his opening looking bad. He said he needs to hear more substance from him and that he needs to start studying up more.

He started off this cycle liking Rand Paul and would vote for him but again saying "he can't win" and "he's a little weird". As of this debate, he no longer likes him really at all. He said the more he talks to worse he looks. Of course he can't cite any specific examples.

He thinks Graham, Kasich, Pataki, Walker, Jindal and Gilmore are all irrelevant and need to drop out. Keep in mind he originally really liked Walker.

Surprisingly he doesn't like Fiorina. He has also openly admitted he doesn't really like Ben Carson.

But here's the kicker. He straight up told me today that he will not vote for any candidate who has been elected and is a politician. His logic is that they're all establishment and they all are terrible because none have been able to do anything for us. He does not care about their individual records.

He told me he will vote for Trump no matter what. It does not matter what happens between now and the primary. And if Trump isn't in, he'll vote for either Fiorina or Carson (having told me he likes neither of them). He will not vote for a politician. He told me that all his local Trump friends are of agreement with this. Their opinions will not be swayed, despite them knowing that Trump really isn't a conservative and thinking he is unpresidential. And the worst thing is they openly admit it.

I don't know what to take from this. I don't know how Rand will be able to break through this cognitive dissonance. The hypocrisy is frustrating, to say the least.

[The Northbreather]

Maybe a side by side examination of Rand vs Trump on specific issues of his interest?

Dealing with the same issue with my girls father....

[staerker]

I don't know what to take from this. I don't know how Rand will be able to break through this cognitive dissonance. The hypocrisy is frustrating, to say the least.

Exactly. There is nothing that can be done. Delusions are delusions.

[timosman]

This sudden switch for "anti-establishment" candidates is rather strange. Or is it a way to justify their dislike for Rand ? A man who did not have to sell out ?

[Petar]

dumbasses gonna dumbass...

[acptulsa]

Thanks, fcreature. + rep.

Your uncle is the prototypical old school, truly libertarian American who is caught up in the media's snare. He has gotten the message they have spun for him. His reactions are perfect. He is an outstanding case study.

If I'm reading the signs right, they know Trumpmania is spent and they're preparing the next Candidate of the Month Club Selection. And I think it's Fiorina.

Want to try something? Ask him if he likes Fiorina. If he says no, bet him that he will like Fiorina inside a month.

Don't bet so much that the first time you catch him talking nice about Fiorina, he gets mad at you for taking all his beer money.

Once he sees you being able to predict his behavior that way, he might listen to your explanation of how the media--including the Fox Wing--is manipulating him into choosing the worst loser of a candidate in the whole Republican Party. Just what you would expect the Liberal Media to do to you if you thought about it.

It seems simple to just say, 'Look old man. Fox is just telling you how to lose. If you pick the guy who will do what you actually want done, the GOP will win, because a whole lot of people could be talked into that. But Fox has you so bamboozled you can't even remember what you really want done, much less spot the guy who will do it.' But of course that never gets the desired reaction, so maybe make a bet that he's more predictable than he thinks he is. That might get his attention.

[Brian4Liberty]

He sounds like he listens to a lot of Hannity and Levin (and goes along with everything they say).

[acptulsa]

He sounds like he listens to a lot of Hannity and Levin (and goes along with everything they say).

Are they pushing Fiorina next? Did I suggest he make the right bet?

[fcreature]

If I'm reading the signs right, they know Trumpmania is spent and they're preparing the next Candidate of the Month Club Selection. And I think it's Fiorina.

Want to try something? Ask him if he likes Fiorina. If he says no, bet him that he will like Fiorina inside a month.

I think you are spot on with this, and in fact, that is why I asked him about Fiorina today. I specifically wanted to know if he liked her because I do suspect that when Trump fades into obscurity he will hop to her in a heartbeat.

[Uriah]

I know people like that. Not any Trump supporters but that type of thinking is very common. Your uncle will change is preferences over and over again. The reason he cannot articulate why he likes or dislikes someone--cannot point to clear examples--is because he himself either does not understand himself and his beliefs or he has no clear guiding principles or philosophy.

However, most people probably do have a guiding belief yet they cannot articulate it and because of that they swing around candidates with varying views without knowing what they really believe. Therefore, it is easy for people like your uncle to grasp onto mainstream cliches like "anti-establishment". What does that term even mean? If you were to ask 10 people you'd probably get a handful of answers some with overlap and others opposed.

Externalizing of problems and fears is very common within our species. It's a hard task to seriously take a look at one's self and be honest and accepting of what is found. I believe that because of the fear of self reflection most people wander around in life grasping at whatever makes them feel better and never truly understanding themselves. There can be honest disagreement but if your uncle cannot articulate why he supports some and not others it's likely because he hasn't taken the time to honestly reflect on what he believes and therefore taken the time to look at himself.

Please don't take this as an attack on your uncle from me. It's just an observation I've made on people in general. We all, including myself, could use more time looking within ourselves rather than externalizing our desires and fears.

[dannno]

Want to try something? Ask him if he likes Fiorina. If he says no, bet him that he will like Fiorina inside a month.

Don't bet so much that the first time you catch him talking nice about Fiorina, he gets mad at you for taking all his beer money.

Once he sees you being able to predict his behavior that way, he might listen to your explanation of how the media--including the Fox Wing--is manipulating him into choosing the worst loser of a candidate in the whole Republican Party. Just what you would expect the Liberal Media to do to you if you thought about it.

It seems simple to just say, 'Look old man. Fox is just telling you how to lose. If you pick the guy who will do what you actually want done, the GOP will win, because a whole lot of people could be talked into that. But Fox has you so bamboozled you can't even remember what you really want done, much less spot the guy who will do it.' But of course that never gets the desired reaction, so maybe make a bet that he's more predictable than he thinks he is. That might get his attention.

Ur a genius sometimes..

[timosman]

Want to try something? Ask him if he likes Fiorina. If he says no, bet him that he will like Fiorina inside a month.

Don't bet so much that the first time you catch him talking nice about Fiorina, he gets mad at you for taking all his beer money.

An excellent idea, but it is worth underscoring the need for exercising caution and not betting huge. A huge bet will also have an undue influence on the person's thinking process. Bet small just to prove a point. Does not have to be money either. How about you buy me a beer if I catch you praising Carly ? People hate being proven predictable as it destroys their carefully constructed self-image. You do not want them to start hating you.

[dannno]

I think you are spot on with this, and in fact, that is why I asked him about Fiorina today. I specifically wanted to know if he liked her because I do suspect that when Trump fades into obscurity he will hop to her in a heartbeat.

Well hurry up and ask him, if you wait a few hours he might already be in the Fiorina camp

[acptulsa]

Well hurry up and ask him, if you wait a few hours he might already be in the Fiorina camp

LOL

I can't believe those media bastards are actually redefining 'Anti-Establishment'. What gall! Congresspeople are establishment whether they take bribes or not, and businesspeople are not no matter how much influence they buy. Insanity. Well, damn it to hell, if they want anti-establishment, I've got some anti-establishment for you! Everybody bet their favorite ten Fox Radio listeners a beer that they'll be in love with Fiorina within a month! If they're really stubborn, when they buy you that beer, bet them they'll be in love with (insert next Candidate of the Month here) a month after that!

Right. Everyone hates to be predictable. And no one can cure them of what makes them predictable better than someone they trust. If we're to set off this brushfire, those are the matches we must play with.

And don't forget the most important part: Do you want to predict who your friends will be supporting next, and win a few beers? Stick with me. I'm a member of RPF; I always know who the next Candidate of the Month Club Selection will be.

[fcreature]

Well hurry up and ask him, if you wait a few hours he might already be in the Fiorina camp

Surprisingly he doesn't like Fiorina. He has also openly admitted he doesn't really like Ben Carson.

But here's the kicker. He straight up told me today that he will not vote for any candidate who has been elected and is a politician. His logic is that they're all establishment and they all are terrible because none have been able to do anything for us. He does not care about their individual records.

He told me he will vote for Trump no matter what. It does not matter what happens between now and the primary. And if Trump isn't in, he'll vote for either Fiorina or Carson (having told me he likes neither of them).

My intent with this thread is to discuss how we might overcome this type of thinking. I do believe it is prevalent within the Republican base this election cycle. It is a strange thing to see - a majority of Republicans are sick to the point they're supporting "anti-establishment" candidates who are actually as establishment as you can get. Jeb bush is in low single digits. The conditions seem ripe for a victory, yet here we are.

[Bern]

fcreature - Your uncle sounds shallow and hunting for a cult of personality that he can embrace. A lot like the great unwashed masses that vote unfortunately.

[acptulsa]

fcreature - Your uncle sounds shallow and hunting for a cult of personality that he can embrace. A lot like the great unwashed masses that vote unfortunately.

Well, that all sounds mighty hard to deny. Now, help us find a way to break the Fox Radio Spell already!

Try that bet, fcreature. I will be too. The Candidate of the Month thing is a new tactic. They're getting too cocky. This little bet--like timosman reiterated, not too painful--might be just the antidote!

Oh, and dannno--whaddaya mean 'sometimes'

[timosman]

Please don't take this as an attack on your uncle from me. It's just an observation I've made on people in general. We all, including myself, could use more time looking within ourselves rather than externalizing our desires and fears.

Notice how much effort is spent on preventing people from self introspection. Almost any question they might have is already answered so no need to search within yourself. Students graduate schools with a total lack of self-awareness which makes them a perfect tool. Slavoj Zizek claims the real control is through our dreams - http://www.critical-theory.com/you-c...gy-on-netflix/

[klamath]

A bit of background first.

I've been arguing with my uncle since 2007 about politics, when I first learned about Ron Paul. He's owned several small businesses over the years. He has been a life long Republican. He is involved in small ways with the local Republican Party and often donates to local candidates. You can say he is well known and certainly talks to a lot of other Republicans in my area. He is a self described tea party member and conservative. In 2012 he was a big fan of Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum. He ended up voting for Romney. In 2008 Rudy Giuliani was his man. He never liked Ron Paul in 2008, always citing the classic excuses like "he can't win", "he's an isolationist", and "he's too kooky". I can say, without hesitation, that he hates what the government has been doing and from the way he speaks you would genuinely think he was a libertarian(ish) conservative. And as I'm sure you can guess, he is a hard core Trump fan this year. Before Trump he was a HUGE Ted Cruz fan.

So of course I talked to him today about the debate last night. I thought I would share some of the insights from this conversation.

First, he agreed that Trump looked petty and unpresidential based off his performance last night. He specifically pointed out his comment about Rand in his opening looking bad. He said he needs to hear more substance from him and that he needs to start studying up more.

He started off this cycle liking Rand Paul and would vote for him but again saying "he can't win" and "he's a little weird". As of this debate, he no longer likes him really at all. He said the more he talks to worse he looks. Of course he can't cite any specific examples.

He thinks Graham, Kasich, Pataki, Walker, Jindal and Gilmore are all irrelevant and need to drop out. Keep in mind he originally really liked Walker.

Surprisingly he doesn't like Fiorina. He has also openly admitted he doesn't really like Ben Carson.

But here's the kicker. He straight up told me today that he will not vote for any candidate who has been elected and is a politician. His logic is that they're all establishment and they all are terrible because none have been able to do anything for us. He does not care about their individual records.

He told me he will vote for Trump no matter what. It does not matter what happens between now and the primary. And if Trump isn't in, he'll vote for either Fiorina or Carson (having told me he likes neither of them). He will not vote for a politician. He told me that all his local Trump friends are of agreement with this. Their opinions will not be swayed, despite them knowing that Trump really isn't a conservative and thinking he is unpresidential. And the worst thing is they openly admit it.

I don't know what to take from this. I don't know how Rand will be able to break through this cognitive dissonance. The hypocrisy is frustrating, to say the least.

One thing. Foreign policy. If as all the Trumpsters like to claim they only support trump because he is an outsider they would have leaped for Ron in his day. They support Trump because they believe he is a strong American FIRST, American Interest, kick anyones ass Republican. The only reason he won't tell you why he hates Rand is because that would put him in the position of defending the mess that is our interventionist foreign policy and he probably feels shaky on that.

[acptulsa]

One thing. Foreign policy. If as all the Trumpsters like to claim they only support trump because he is an outsider they would have leaped for Ron in his day. They support Trump because they believe he is a strong American FIRST, American Interest, kick anyones ass Republican. The only reason he won't tell you why he hates Rand is because that would put him in the position of defending the mess that is our interventionist foreign policy and he probably feels shaky on that.

Yeah, that's a weak spot in their psyche, all right, especially if they claim to be Christian. And a big part of why Republicans have gotten so bad about alienating everyone else. These are the people who are loudest and proudest about being Christian, and the ones who alienate everyone else by being bloodthirsty. There's some strong cognitive dissonance, there. Dynamite.

You need a better psychologist than me to de-fuse that one directly. You need the bomb squad.

[Cleaner44]

This is the emotion of the typical Republican voter. They got suckered in 2012 to support the loser Flopney and now they are rejecting the GOP establishment. That is not helpful to Rand or liberty, but it is useful in another way. The GOP needs to be torn down if it is ever going to be dragged back to conservative roots. While Trump is a statist, this could still be helpful in the way that the Republican establishment has lost control.

[LibertyEagle]

Rand did good in the debate; really good, I think. But, he needs to be more forceful in getting time. Instead of asking permission, just get in there and take it.

Republicans like strength. Rand has to do something to show it. That's my opinion, anyway.

It's all about perception.

[fcreature]

The only reason he won't tell you why he hates Rand is because that would put him in the position of defending the mess that is our interventionist foreign policy and he probably feels shaky on that.

Interesting comment because he vehemently despises Lindsey Graham primarily due to how all he wants to do is go to war.

[timosman]

My intent with this thread is to discuss how we might overcome this type of thinking. I do believe it is prevalent within the Republican base this election cycle. It is a strange thing to see - a majority of Republicans are sick to the point they're supporting "anti-establishment" candidates who are actually as establishment as you can get. Jeb bush is in low single digits. The conditions seem ripe for a victory, yet here we are.

People do not want to engage in self introspection and will vote for anyone who can lift this burden from their shoulders. They used to vote for establishment, that didn't work, let's try something novel this time, the exact opposite - a properly labelled "anti-establishment" candidate, maybe it will work. Paul needs to be introduced in small doses, he might trigger a seizure.

[timosman]

Interesting comment because he vehemently despises Lindsey Graham primarily due to how all he wants to do is go to war.

You uncle is an obedient creature and making $#@! up as he goes. You are going to nail him one day, but not yet.

[klamath]

Interesting comment because he vehemently despises Lindsey Graham primarily due to how all he wants to do is go to war.

He doesn't have to be neocon like Lindsey. Trump isn't a neocon but he is just as bad if not worse. They don't believe in helping other countries achieve domocrasy at gun point but would be all for seizing another country if they felt it was in American interest.

[acptulsa]

Bump for everyone with a Fox addict in the family.

[Occam's Banana]

[...] He straight up told me today that he will not vote for any candidate who has been elected and is a politician. [...]

He told me he will vote for Trump no matter what. It does not matter what happens between now and the primary. And if Trump isn't in, he'll vote for either Fiorina or Carson (having told me he likes neither of them). He will not vote for a politician. [...]

So ... your uncle despises politicians who have been elected and regards them as persons worthy of contempt. As a consequence of this, he has decided to vote for someone who, if elected, will then (by that very fact) become an elected politician - and who will therefore be made despicable and worthy of his contempt.

That could arguably be considered a form of sadism - and it's definitely a form of masochism ...

[acptulsa]

So ... your uncle despises politicians who have been elected and regards them as persons worthy of contempt. As a consequence of this, he has decided to vote for someone who, if elected, will then (by that very fact) become an elected politician - and who will therefore be made despicable and worthy of his contempt.

That could arguably be considered a form of sadism - and it's definitely a form of masochism ...

LOL

There's another thing that could work on the older crowd. Show 'em the Jimmy Stewart classic Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, then ask them if Smith was Establishment and Taylor was anti-Establishment.

That's all you have to remember. It's not at all a hard movie to watch--it was directed by Frank Capra and you'll enjoy it. But if Trump the briber is anti-Establishment so was Taylor, and if Rand Paul the Filibuster King is Establishment so was Jimmy Stewart. Do NOT underestimate the value of watching this movie with someone (particularly if they're upper middle age or above, as this one was once a staple like Miracle on 34th St.).

[acptulsa]

We might have to figure out who their next Candidate of the Month Club Selection is going to be pretty quickly. I don't think Fiorina's going to last very long.