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Thread: The case of Mystic Pizza

  1. #1

    The case of Mystic Pizza

    Greetings, newcomer to the forum. I have oft debated with self declared libertarians about political and economic ideals, and I will say up front that while I regard some aspects of libertarian thought as admirable, I also find the concept to be a bit too idealistic to be applicable in the modern US economy and political spectrum. And to that end, I bring forth the example of Mystic Pizza in Connecticut. The owner of the establishment was sentenced just a few days ago to serve a year in federal prison for tax evasion. This comes almost a full year after he plead guilty to wage theft. The aspect of this particular case that I find striking is that despite this man openly admitting to being a thief and violating the contract of his employees-supposedly the highest possible offense in libertarian economics-he suffered comparatively little repercussion for it. No one boycotted his establishment, people apparently continued to apply for jobs there. It seems symbolic of an economy in which people just plain don't care. "So what if that waiter or waitress got ripped off, if they don't like it they should just go get another job!" Shouldn't the community in which this establishment is located have been so outraged by his thievery that no one would dare go into it again? There have even been people lining up to defend him now that he has been sentenced for tax evasion since, after all, taxes are always so popular. So what is the libertarian explanation for this?



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  3. #2
    There is no libertarian explanation for this. Yes, defrauding his employees is reprehensible. Yes it is reprehensible that he suffered no repercussions for doing that but did suffer repercussions for not paying the government. It certainly makes one wonder what happened to Lincoln's government 'of the people, by the people and for the people.'

    This guy sounds like he's anything but the poster child for small business that we need. Of course, we only have one side of this story. But if there's an argument for libertarianism in this, it is that one bad small business can affect dozens, but one bad corporations affects thousands. Decentralization is good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  4. #3
    The "crime" of wage theft has nothing to do with the employer violating promises to employees or stealing from them. He is charged with violating state labor laws that attempt to control wages. For most libertarians, the minimum wage and overtime laws are the crime in the sense that they use the threat of violence to interfere with the voluntary associations between employer and employee. Ignoring labor laws is liberty, not crime. That is why no libertarian would care about this.

    As for why the community at large didn't care? Maybe they are coming to their senses about the stupidity of government intervention in the economy?
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  5. #4
    Why did people continue to work for him if they were not content with the wages they were receiving?

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Why did people continue to work for him if they were not content with the wages they were receiving?
    Because people are ignorant of their own interest. Only politicians can determine what is good for people. Politicians are a higher order of human: they are able to make better choices about other people's lives than the people themselves can make. We should thank them and obey.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Because people are ignorant of their own interest. Only politicians can determine what is good for people. Politicians are a higher order of human: they are able to make better choices about other people's lives than the people themselves can make. We should thank them and obey.
    You're a good 'Murican Commrade.
    "Like an army falling, one by one by one" - Linkin Park

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    The "crime" of wage theft has nothing to do with the employer violating promises to employees or stealing from them. He is charged with violating state labor laws that attempt to control wages. For most libertarians, the minimum wage and overtime laws are the crime in the sense that they use the threat of violence to interfere with the voluntary associations between employer and employee. Ignoring labor laws is liberty, not crime. That is why no libertarian would care about this.

    As for why the community at large didn't care? Maybe they are coming to their senses about the stupidity of government intervention in the economy?
    This and the fact that people continued to apply for jobs at the establishment tells me that something is missing from the story. If the workers really cared about the contracts signed with the establishment, they would stop applying for jobs there since he is known for violating them. And if the workers have no problem with him, why should I as a customers have a reason to complain about?

    If I boycott the business, I would also be punishing the workers who I am supposed to be helping. Now if this employers was forcing the workers to be on the job and forcing them to work while violating their contracts, then I will have a reason to boycott this business. Also, if there was a similar business treating their workers in a better way while offering competitive food prices, then I would visit that establishment instead of the Mystic Pizza.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by dryan1982 View Post
    Greetings, newcomer to the forum. I have oft debated with self declared libertarians about political and economic ideals, and I will say up front that while I regard some aspects of libertarian thought as admirable, I also find the concept to be a bit too idealistic to be applicable in the modern US economy and political spectrum. And to that end, I bring forth the example of Mystic Pizza in Connecticut. The owner of the establishment was sentenced just a few days ago to serve a year in federal prison for tax evasion. This comes almost a full year after he plead guilty to wage theft. The aspect of this particular case that I find striking is that despite this man openly admitting to being a thief and violating the contract of his employees-supposedly the highest possible offense in libertarian economics-he suffered comparatively little repercussion for it. No one boycotted his establishment, people apparently continued to apply for jobs there. It seems symbolic of an economy in which people just plain don't care. "So what if that waiter or waitress got ripped off, if they don't like it they should just go get another job!" Shouldn't the community in which this establishment is located have been so outraged by his thievery that no one would dare go into it again? There have even been people lining up to defend him now that he has been sentenced for tax evasion since, after all, taxes are always so popular. So what is the libertarian explanation for this?
    Yeah, that's easy. But it depends what form of Libertarianism you're talking about. If one is a Libertarian Socialist then workers are entitled to the value of their labor. If the owner of Mystic Pizza wished to hire people then it would be a worker co-operative and workers would have control of their own destiny. Under libertarian capitalism, like promoted here, I would assume you would just have to kind of hope a free market would allow for greater competition and Mystic Pizza would go the day of the dodo bird via competition.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditionalist View Post
    Yeah, that's easy. But it depends what form of Libertarianism you're talking about. If one is a Libertarian Socialist then workers are entitled to the value of their labor. .
    WTF is a "Libertarian Socialist?" How is labor valued, aside from what the employer decides?

  12. #10
    //
    Last edited by specsaregood; 05-22-2016 at 10:21 PM.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    I think its one of those people that steals other people's money while smoking a joint and eating a veggie burger.
    Yes , but only after someone else pd for the disgusting veggie burger and filled up the one hitter for them, bought the clothes they wear .....after all ,they are special and a gift to the rest of you .

  14. #12
    Wow, "What is a Libertarian Socialist" got a weird hit. Sounded like a "WTF, I'll just make $#@! up then" kind of hit.
    Maybe ask some questions?
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    I think its one of those people that steals other people's money while smoking a joint and eating a veggie burger.
    Look like Bill Mayer if they are over 30 ...... Bill Clinton if over 60 .You guys fill in the void.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    WTF is a "Libertarian Socialist?"
    A Moron's Oxymoron.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  17. #15
    The big difference is that the owner of Mystic Pizza didn't imprison his victims after stealing from them.

    Quote Originally Posted by dryan1982 View Post
    Greetings, newcomer to the forum. I have oft debated with self declared libertarians about political and economic ideals, and I will say up front that while I regard some aspects of libertarian thought as admirable, I also find the concept to be a bit too idealistic to be applicable in the modern US economy and political spectrum. And to that end, I bring forth the example of Mystic Pizza in Connecticut. The owner of the establishment was sentenced just a few days ago to serve a year in federal prison for tax evasion. This comes almost a full year after he plead guilty to wage theft. The aspect of this particular case that I find striking is that despite this man openly admitting to being a thief and violating the contract of his employees-supposedly the highest possible offense in libertarian economics-he suffered comparatively little repercussion for it. No one boycotted his establishment, people apparently continued to apply for jobs there. It seems symbolic of an economy in which people just plain don't care. "So what if that waiter or waitress got ripped off, if they don't like it they should just go get another job!" Shouldn't the community in which this establishment is located have been so outraged by his thievery that no one would dare go into it again? There have even been people lining up to defend him now that he has been sentenced for tax evasion since, after all, taxes are always so popular. So what is the libertarian explanation for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRey View Post
    Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat

    Peace.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditionalist View Post
    If one is a Libertarian Socialist then workers are entitled to the value of their labor.
    Does ANYONE subscribe to the labor theory of value anymore? I feel embarassed for them.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditionalist View Post
    Yeah, that's easy. But it depends what form of Libertarianism you're talking about. If one is a Libertarian Socialist then workers are entitled to the value of their labor. If the owner of Mystic Pizza wished to hire people then it would be a worker co-operative and workers would have control of their own destiny. Under libertarian capitalism, like promoted here, I would assume you would just have to kind of hope a free market would allow for greater competition and Mystic Pizza would go the day of the dodo bird via competition.
    This is my issue here, "Just kind of hope." Just cross your fingers and hope the crook will face some kind of repercussions. That hardly sounds fair or just to the people he ripped off.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by dryan1982 View Post
    This is my issue here, "Just kind of hope." Just cross your fingers and hope the crook will face some kind of repercussions. That hardly sounds fair or just to the people he ripped off.
    Well, as I stated, that's simply not a belief I subscribe to anymore. You'd have to dig deeper and investigate the issue, there are alternative models within the free market ideology. I actually created a thread on this not too long ago if you are interested: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...Not-Capitalism


    Also, to the posters above, I would advise in studying Left-Libertarianism that predates Right-wing libertarianism. Start with Wikipedia if you have to, then move onto modern day Left-libertarian thinkers. If you've been Ron Paul fans for as long as your join dates show, then you should have a basic familiarity with the philosophy instead of some knee-jerk reaction.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by dryan1982 View Post
    This is my issue here, "Just kind of hope." Just cross your fingers and hope the crook will face some kind of repercussions. That hardly sounds fair or just to the people he ripped off.
    I don't much find it "fair" or "just" that a good portion of my earnings are siphoned away (i.e. ripped off) to pay useless bureaucrats who often have never even worked in the field they are overseeing.

    I don't even cross my fingers anymore.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    This and the fact that people continued to apply for jobs at the establishment tells me that something is missing from the story. If the workers really cared about the contracts signed with the establishment, they would stop applying for jobs there since he is known for violating them. And if the workers have no problem with him, why should I as a customers have a reason to complain about?

    If I boycott the business, I would also be punishing the workers who I am supposed to be helping. Now if this employers was forcing the workers to be on the job and forcing them to work while violating their contracts, then I will have a reason to boycott this business. Also, if there was a similar business treating their workers in a better way while offering competitive food prices, then I would visit that establishment instead of the Mystic Pizza.
    Again, here is my issue with "the market will fix" it as applies to the US economy: you are asking for a degree of activism that just does not exist. Practically no one bothers to read up on a restaurant's history of customer satisfaction and how they treat employees before they walk through the door. And for jobs like waiting tables, practically no one does some thorough background into a restaurants history before applying for a job. Such establishments and positions are viewed as a dime a dozen, and hence no one cares as long as they are not the ones getting the short end of the stick.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    WTF is a "Libertarian Socialist?" How is labor valued, aside from what the employer decides?
    A libertarian socialist is someone who believes socialist aims can be achieved through free association, and that the state is in fact inimical to the socialist ideal. There lots of different kinds of libertarian socialist: mutualists, anarcho-syndicalists, collectivist anarchists, free market socialists and others. It's a lousy system, but it's not self-contradictory.
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by dryan1982 View Post
    Again, here is my issue with "the market will fix" it as applies to the US economy: you are asking for a degree of activism that just does not exist. Practically no one bothers to read up on a restaurant's history of customer satisfaction and how they treat employees before they walk through the door. And for jobs like waiting tables, practically no one does some thorough background into a restaurants history before applying for a job. Such establishments and positions are viewed as a dime a dozen, and hence no one cares as long as they are not the ones getting the short end of the stick.
    This is one of the reasons I advocate for localism, decentrlization and strong communities. Small businessmen in small towns can't pull $#@! like this, because everyone knows everyone else.
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.

  26. #23
    "Oh that is just the way Bill is. He's always like that." It may be tolerated more because they know him better.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    "Oh that is just the way Bill is. He's always like that." It may be tolerated more because they know him better.
    People in small towns don't tend to tolerate people who don't keep their word for very long.
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by dryan1982 View Post
    This is my issue here, "Just kind of hope." Just cross your fingers and hope the crook will face some kind of repercussions. That hardly sounds fair or just to the people he ripped off.
    If you try and build a system in which there is a law and enforcement for every single trangression under the sun, you will have created a system that is neither fair nor just.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    This is one of the reasons I advocate for localism, decentrlization and strong communities. Small businessmen in small towns can't pull $#@! like this, because everyone knows everyone else.
    This happened in a small town.



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