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Thread: Trial, and error

  1. #1

    Trial, and error

    Scripture is full of reference to trial. not just "testing" but Legal Trial.

    It is both a common and central theme, and culminates in a final judgement.
    and I could post a host of reference that any half familiar with the subject would recognize.

    I would hope that there is no dispute on this from any segment or sect.
    I am trying to start with a neutral point of agreement.

    A Trial.

    To most this is taken as a personal trial. and that can be too.
    But I believe that it is a much larger Trial that is taking place.

    All of the elements are in place. Crime, witnesses, An Advocate, a Prosecutor.

    But who is really on trial?

    Contemplate
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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  3. #2
    The entire human race is on trial in the defendant's chair in the name of Adam, the crimes are his original sin and all of the derivative actual sins committed by each of his offspring. God the Father is judge, Christ is either advocate or prosecutor depending upon the individual's faith, and I suppose the angels that kept their 1st estate and did not fall could be seen as witnesses.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    The entire human race is on trial in the defendant's chair in the name of Adam, the crimes are his original sin and all of the derivative actual sins committed by each of his offspring. God the Father is judge, Christ is either advocate or prosecutor depending upon the individual's faith, and I suppose the angels that kept their 1st estate and did not fall could be seen as witnesses.
    Gozer the Traveler. He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the rectification of the Vuldrini, the traveler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    The entire human race is on trial in the defendant's chair in the name of Adam, the crimes are his original sin and all of the derivative actual sins committed by each of his offspring.
    A common belief. one I shared once..
    This is a Key.

    Adam is not on trial. And Man has been redeemed.
    And the trial is not over on this temporal plane.

    We are witnesses..
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Gozer the Traveler. He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the rectification of the Vuldrini, the traveler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!
    One recurring bad habit common to Atheistkult is plagiarizing various pop culture works and thinking they've said something profound. I'd be impressed if I was in my mid-teens, but alas...
    Last edited by hells_unicorn; 08-25-2015 at 07:28 PM.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    A common belief. one I shared once..
    This is a Key.

    Adam is not on trial. And Man has been redeemed.
    And the trial is not over on this temporal plane.

    We are witnesses..
    This is Pelagianism. If man is redeemed in the sense that you describe, we would be immortal. Final redemption comes at the hour of judgment, and even those who have an assurance of their salvation and are making their calling election sure will not experience the fruits of redemption until after that appointed time.

    In a sense, you could say we are witnesses, but our testimony has no bearing on anyone other than ourselves, so we're more akin to defendants giving testimony.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    One recurring bad habit common to Athistkult is plagiarizing pop culture and thinking they've said something profound.
    Oh, my. Touche. Please, elucidate me on the findings of your cult that are relevant beyond ancient script. When was it, exactly, God spoke or walked among your people beyond that of long dead writers of prose. Might as well be a Zoroastrian.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Oh, my. Touche. Please, elucidate me on the findings of your cult that are relevant beyond ancient script. When was it, exactly, God spoke or walked among your people beyond that of long dead writers of prose. Might as well be a Zoroastrian.
    Let me know when the mythical retarded fish-frog that Richard Dawkins insists is our common ancestor shows up to explain how the universe spontaneously farted itself into existence via a brilliant explosion of cosmic flatulence, and then I'll consider your empty bromides as worthy of a passing chuckle.

    Being a snarky $#@! is no way to go through life son.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    The entire human race is on trial in the defendant's chair in the name of Adam, the crimes are his original sin and all of the derivative actual sins committed by each of his offspring. God the Father is judge, Christ is either advocate or prosecutor depending upon the individual's faith, and I suppose the angels that kept their 1st estate and did not fall could be seen as witnesses.
    They, along with the Spirit, are one and undivided. Separating them leads to heresy and error. But the essence of what you say is correct. *hugs*
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 08-25-2015 at 09:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    They, along with the Spirit, are one and undivided. Separating them leads to heresy and error. But the essence of what you say is correct. *hugs*
    Yes, but I'm speaking in terms of their economy, not their essence. Again, we do not say that The Father is the mediator because he never took on a human nature, nor did The Holy Spirit, it was The Son that took on this particular economic function.

    I repeat, one in nature/essence, but three in person and economy, it is my position at present, and will continue to be my position, and I don't think that any in the EOC should find this objectionable, though there is sure to be issues on the matters of church polity, I think we concur on autocephaly, but differ on whether there should be more than one governing bishop per congregation and how ascending synods and councils function in relation to the bible for example.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    Yes, but I'm speaking in terms of their economy, not their essence. Again, we do not say that The Father is the mediator because he never took on a human nature, nor did The Holy Spirit, it was The Son that took on this particular economic function.

    I repeat, one in nature/essence, but three in person and economy, it is my position at present, and will continue to be my position, and I don't think that any in the EOC should find this objectionable, though there is sure to be issues on the matters of church polity, I think we concur on autocephaly, but differ on whether there should be more than one governing bishop per congregation and how ascending synods and councils function in relation to the bible for example.
    Natch. Sorry I misunderstood you. Forgive, plz, brother. ~hugs~
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  14. #12
    , Christ is either advocate or prosecutor depending upon the individual's faith
    Throughout scripture,, Satan is the persecutor/prosecutor/accuser.

    He is the Accuser of the Brethren.
    Revelation 12:10

    That role is certainly known.
    And it is interesting because Satan is the perpetrator of the First Crime. Yet is trying to blame that crime on others.

    He tries to make this about us,, instead of about him.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Throughout scripture,, Satan is the persecutor/prosecutor/accuser.

    He is the Accuser of the Brethren.
    Revelation 12:10

    That role is certainly known.
    And it is interesting because Satan is the perpetrator of the First Crime. Yet is trying to blame that crime on others.

    He tries to make this about us,, instead of about him.
    It's as much about us as it is about him, Satan's crime would have been impossible without Adam's willing participation, and it is stipulated that Adam cursed the rest of mankind for his disobedience (Romans 5:12). You could maybe argue that Satan is an accuser, but I'd put him more under the category of false witness who is continually heaping additional sanctions for contempt of court upon himself, or even an insubordinate prosecutor on his way to being disbarred, but dignifying Satan's deeds with that of a legitimate prosecutor runs afoul of the very spirit of the Gospel message.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    Let me know when the mythical retarded fish-frog that Richard Dawkins insists is our common ancestor shows up to explain how the universe spontaneously farted itself into existence via a brilliant explosion of cosmic flatulence, and then I'll consider your empty bromides as worthy of a passing chuckle.

    Being a snarky $#@! is no way to go through life son.
    Ah, so you create a world for him so that you can attack him. Quite an elusive fellow, you are.
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  17. #15
    So to sum up this thread then, we're basically arguing the "free will" vs "eternal security/predestination thing" again. Some are resting so completely and complacently in their salvation that they believe we've nothing left to do but endure and die, while others are aware that we're called to a purpose that must be performed spiritually in a specific way or Jesus saying that we must "overcome" to be confessed before the Father in heaven is a redundant statement. Rev. 3:5

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ClydeCoulter View Post
    Ah, so you create a world for him so that you can attack him. Quite an elusive fellow, you are.
    He attacked himself with his opening post by plagiarizing Harold Ramis, I simply pointed this out by upping the ante with a combination of South Park and Family Guy, though in my case I think I was a bit more original and can pass my bit of satire off as paraphrasing.

    What's good for the goose is good for the gander laddie.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    He attacked himself with his opening post by plagiarizing Harold Ramis, I simply pointed this out by upping the ante with a combination of South Park and Family Guy, though in my case I think I was a bit more original and can pass my bit of satire off as paraphrasing.

    What's good for the goose is good for the gander laddie.
    You think highly of yourself as if mere belief makes it so. Not surprising.

  21. #18
    Who is the "Defendant" in this trial.

    Who is the accused? What was the crime?

    "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! "But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'
    It is a strange trial,, with some having multiple roles.

    but the strangest thing is,, The Prosecutor will be Judged.

    "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
    Take a look from a changed perspective.
    Do you stand with the Prosecution?

    DO you love? Or do you prosecute?
    Forgive? or condemn?

    Contemplate.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 08-26-2015 at 09:18 AM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  22. #19
    Eagles' Wings
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Throughout scripture,, Satan is the persecutor/prosecutor/accuser.

    He is the Accuser of the Brethren.
    Revelation 12:10

    That role is certainly known.
    And it is interesting because Satan is the perpetrator of the First Crime. Yet is trying to blame that crime on others.

    He tries to make this about us,, instead of about him.
    In my simple mind, Revelation 12, proves the utter defeat of Satan. While he continues to deceive, accuse, and persecute the Body of Christ, and all of mankind, he is ultimately defeated by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve, yet Scripture is clear, in my mind, that Adam and Eve are guilty of sin.

    God allows some to be defeated by the lies of Satan. Others, He gives saving faith even through the most desperate of trials, such as Job.

  23. #20
    Eagles' Wings
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Scripture is full of reference to trial. not just "testing" but Legal Trial.

    It is both a common and central theme, and culminates in a final judgement.
    and I could post a host of reference that any half familiar with the subject would recognize.

    I would hope that there is no dispute on this from any segment or sect.
    I am trying to start with a neutral point of agreement.

    A Trial.

    To most this is taken as a personal trial. and that can be too.
    But I believe that it is a much larger Trial that is taking place.

    All of the elements are in place. Crime, witnesses, An Advocate, a Prosecutor.

    But who is really on trial?

    Contemplate
    My first thought is that sinners are on trial, which would include all of mankind. Our Judge is a Holy, Mighty God, and for those who are given saving faith, a loving and merciful Judge.
    Last edited by Eagles' Wings; 08-26-2015 at 01:08 PM.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    A common belief. one I shared once..
    This is a Key.

    Adam is not on trial. And Man has been redeemed.
    And the trial is not over on this temporal plane.

    We are witnesses..
    "We" are redeemed? No. The sons of God are redeemed, and the sons of Adam are not redeemed. Read Romans 5.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Take a look from a changed perspective.
    Do you stand with the Prosecution?

    DO you love? Or do you prosecute?
    Forgive? or condemn?

    Contemplate.
    If that is the standard, and it is, then you stand with the accused. You have not come anywhere close to loving or forgiving people the way that God commands.

    The ones who are redeemed are the ones who trust fully in Christ's perfect works on their behalf. Only Christ's perfect life is the life that God will accept. God does not accept your imperfect and sinful acts of love and forgiveness.
    Last edited by Sola_Fide; 08-26-2015 at 11:49 AM.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    If that is the standard, and it is, then you stand with the accused.
    I suppose I do stand with the accused. But I have an Advocate.

    Who is my accuser?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    The ones who are redeemed are the ones who trust fully in Christ's perfect works on their behalf. Only Christ's perfect life is the life that God will accept. God does not accept your imperfect and sinful acts of love and forgiveness.
    I am not disputing that in any way.
    For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    This thread is related to the trial itself. simply because I find the "Trial" interesting.
    and because scripture seems to give it some importance.

    The trial is a "done deal" in heaven/eternity,,, but has not yet happened in our timeline.

    for us the trial is ongoing.

    and me,, I am observing,, as a witness.
    As one that trusts in what Christ has done.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I suppose I do stand with the accused. But I have an Advocate.

    Who is my accuser?
    I don't know who your advocate is. Is it the Jesus that died for every man but His death was not sufficient to save them? That's not an advocate that can save you from the wrath of God against your sins.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    That verse is not saying that every single person in the world will be made alive. It means that all the ones Adam represents will die, and all the ones that Christ represents will live.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    I don't know who your advocate is.
    You should get to know him.
    My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.…
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    You should get to know him.
    You think that is saying Jesus is the propitiation for every person that has ever lived? If your sins are propitiated, then you are saved. So you are a universalist?

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    You think highly of yourself as if mere belief makes it so. Not surprising.
    My beliefs or that of any other man don't make it so, it is so because it is, much like a person's perception doesn't change the laws of nature. And for a person who loves to play the snarky satirist, you're a bit thin skinned when someone else decides to play along and gives it right back to you. Not surprising.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    So you are a universalist?
    So you say.

    For now we see through a glass, darkly,

    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post

    Contemplate
    Started this thread with common ground,,

    on what point, of the stated points do you disagree?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

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