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Thread: Would private roads in a free society have speed limits/enforcers?

  1. #1

    Would private roads in a free society have speed limits/enforcers?

    I've heard this discussion crop up from time to time and I'm really curious as to why anyone would think that a free society would have any sort of policing on the roadways. Traffic lights, speed limits, etc: would they exist, or do you think people would be able to get around on their own without the help of some overarching road authorities?

    I, for one, think it's nobody's business how fast I think I can drive safely. Everyone on the road is trying to drive safely unless they're suicidal, but of course, you can't prevent things like that. The point is, trying to prevent traffic accidents with some sort of private police would be a waste of money for any private road business that has a budget. There would be absolutely no demand for that sort of thing, since I'm pretty sure people aren't going to muse over crash statistics anyway if the road they usually take is much more convenient. How many people actually take into account the history of a road before they take it, anyway? Maybe in extreme cases, but very rarely, if ever.

    Does anyone still believe that a private road would have any interest in having private enforcers on their roads? If not and you still believe they would employ such rules, how would they be enforced? I've heard some people espouse this idea and I want to bring them out and have them explain their position. Why does anyone think a free society's roads would in any resemble the system of policing and traffic control that exists in America these days (although, I might add, other countries get by just fine without such rules and enforcement practices)?
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  3. #2
    I don't think it would resemble anything like what we have now, but there would most likely be some method of speed regulation on account of liability insurance costs by the holding company. It would probably be a pro-rated pay-to-play system where the more you shoulder in liability costs, the faster you would be permitted to drive on their freeway.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    I don't think it would resemble anything like what we have now, but there would most likely be some method of speed regulation on account of liability insurance costs by the holding company. It would probably be a pro-rated pay-to-play system where the more you shoulder in liability costs, the faster you would be permitted to drive on their freeway.
    Seems like the builder would have an interest in maintaining the free flow of traffic and not appreciate unsafe drivers who may contribute to slowing everything down with car crashes. I guess it would be up to them to decide how to enforce it.

  5. #4
    I see it as an end to free travel and trade.It would certainly be a PITA to get permission every few feet.. or few miles.
    Or are you expecting some kind of monopoly? One owner for all the roads?

    Nope.. I can see no benefit in that at all.

    The government did not build the roads.. they usurped them.

    And who gets to claim ownership for roads that have been in existence since before the automobile?
    Last edited by pcosmar; 08-22-2015 at 09:53 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  6. #5
    They would be managed by the government.

  7. #6
    I stay on dirt road mostly. I rarely break 40; that's tearin' up gravel. no signs. single lane + shoulder. everyone gets along just fine. don't see many a cop on patrol.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

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  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV View Post
    although, I might add, other countries get by just fine without such rules and enforcement practices?
    Is this what you are talking about ?



    I'll pass.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    I don't think it would resemble anything like what we have now, but there would most likely be some method of speed regulation on account of liability insurance costs by the holding company. It would probably be a pro-rated pay-to-play system where the more you shoulder in liability costs, the faster you would be permitted to drive on their freeway.
    But that still begs the question: How and why would such "permitted" speeds be enforced? Are you saying the road's insurance company would require them to have a system like that in place, even if it was totally impractical and did not achieve its intended purpose? The roads can stay free of liability by keeping the roads themselves safe. They are not liable for the actions of other people on the roadways and, I would assume, such would be made known to any participants before using said road.
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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by VIDEODROME View Post
    Seems like the builder would have an interest in maintaining the free flow of traffic and not appreciate unsafe drivers who may contribute to slowing everything down with car crashes. I guess it would be up to them to decide how to enforce it.
    Roads work like anything else in the free market: everyone does their part to keep things flowing smoothly because they have a vested interest in the same. They need to get where they want to go without causing any trouble. You don't need any authority to tell you how to drive. I'm sure the roads could block drivers who have a history of bad driving from entering their road somehow, but controlling drivers' actions while on the road is an entirely different situation.
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  12. #10
    It's all speculation based on existing models ATM. We simply can't know exactly what will happen when people are free because 1) no one alive remembers it and 2) freedom is unpredictable because of its nature-unlike centrally planned models. Ditto for free markets in mediums of exchange and a number of other things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
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  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I see it as an end to free travel and trade.It would certainly be a PITA to get permission every few feet.. or few miles.
    Or are you expecting some kind of monopoly? One owner for all the roads?

    Nope.. I can see no benefit in that at all.

    The government did not build the roads.. they usurped them.

    And who gets to claim ownership for roads that have been in existence since before the automobile?
    Beats me. This is a hypothetical that I don't necessarily advocate. I'm just trying to figure out why some people apparently think drivers are incapable of peaceably getting from point A to point B without some kind of oversight. The duty of any private organization is not to prevent people from being idiots, but to create an atmosphere in which the idiots are easy to spot. Good maintenance, road markings and clean-up crews are all a private road should need to stay in operation. Trying to control people as they are driving on the road is completely impractical and naive of anybody to envision. I think it's an absurd concept and shows how little some people really understand the free market.
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  14. #12


    I see freedom.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Is this what you are talking about ?



    I'll pass.
    First of all, it's ironic that you would show me a video of China traffic since I live in Beijing and deal with it every day. It's nothing like that where I live, but even if that were the case, answer me this: what, to you, is so bad about that video? Traffic seems to be moving along okay and despite the fact that us Americans with our controlled roadways have a hard time envisioning ourselves trying to muscle for position on one of these roads, I bet more traffic passes through that intersection faster than traffic in a comparable intersection with comparable volume in the US.

    According to my own experience, I haven't really seen anything like that video. There are stoplights at most of the intersections in Beijing, but traffic is freer and people are allowed to assess the situation themselves instead of counting on the little green man to tell them when to go. They have the same signals and the vehicles do obey them, but nobody cares about jaywalkers or people who walk across one lane at a time even when the little man is red. I do it all the time and I've never seen anyone get killed and I've never felt that I was in any danger because I was allowed to decide myself when it was safe to walk. I also never see traffic come to a standstill here, so again I ask, what's the big deal?
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  16. #14
    I think it would look radically different to say the least
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    It's all speculation based on existing models ATM. We simply can't know exactly what will happen when people are free because 1) no one alive remembers it and 2) freedom is unpredictable because of its nature-unlike centrally planned models. Ditto for free markets in mediums of exchange and a number of other things.
    I think the reason most of us are here is because we support a free market, and I think this is a good litmus test to see if people really believe in the free market. If you think there would be a demand for controlling drivers in a private road system, then you don't understand the free market. What's more, it's not really all that speculative considering we are all supposed to share the notion that people can get around just fine without mommy/daddy government watching us to make sure we don't get hurt. We also have some evidence that traffic would flow more freely and more safely without such controls in place.
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  18. #16
    I would think yes, there is nothing that scares me like a speeder in city limit roads, even on the interstate, a set rule and an enforcer would have to be made available for the time when speeder make an appearance.

    Also I driven in places where the only road enforcement are road signs and it wasn't anything like what timosman posted. I think for peace of mind of fragile drivers like me, the road operators would have to regulate the driving on said roads.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV View Post
    First of all, it's ironic that you would show me a video of China traffic since I live in Beijing and deal with it every day. It's nothing like that where I live, but even if that were the case, answer me this: what, to you, is so bad about that video? Traffic seems to be moving along okay and despite the fact that us Americans with our controlled roadways have a hard time envisioning ourselves trying to muscle for position on one of these roads, I bet more traffic passes through that intersection faster than traffic in a comparable intersection with comparable volume in the US.

    According to my own experience, I haven't really seen anything like that video. There are stoplights at most of the intersections in Beijing, but traffic is freer and people are allowed to assess the situation themselves instead of counting on the little green man to tell them when to go. They have the same signals and the vehicles do obey them, but nobody cares about jaywalkers or people who walk across one lane at a time even when the little man is red. I do it all the time and I've never seen anyone get killed and I've never felt that I was in any danger because I was allowed to decide myself when it was safe to walk. I also never see traffic come to a standstill here, so again I ask, what's the big deal?
    The cultural differences are such that western drivers do no appreciate the insanity of Chinese traffic. I do not want to "muscle for position" every intersection. Prefer to wait at the light. I can relax and listen to a podcast, a good band or chatting hands free on the phone without stress. Can't imagine too many people driving while high on antidepressants or other drugs in China either. It is a jungle out there

  21. #18
    My favorite sign in Germany is end of all limits (including speeds). I also like driving on roads with minimum speed limits.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    I would think yes, there is nothing that scares me like a speeder in city limit roads, even on the interstate, a set rule and an enforcer would have to be made available for the time when speeder make an appearance.

    Also I driven in places where the only road enforcement are road signs and it wasn't anything like what timosman posted. I think for peace of mind of fragile drivers like me, the road operators would have to regulate the driving on said roads.
    Boom, you don't understand the free market.

    "It scares me, so I need mommy and daddy government to come rescue me from the bad speeders!"
    Last edited by PaulConventionWV; 08-22-2015 at 11:28 PM.
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  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    The cultural differences are such that western drivers do no appreciate the insanity of Chinese traffic. I do not want to "muscle for position" every intersection. Prefer to wait at the light. I can relax and listen to a podcast, a good band or chatting hands free on the phone without stress. Can't imagine too many people driving while high on antidepressants or other drugs in China either. It is a jungle out there
    Yes. Probably a safer and more efficient jungle.
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  24. #21
    Ultimately the owners of a private road would have to shoot those who refused to obey the rules and continued to trespass.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Ultimately the owners of a private road would have to shoot those who refused to obey the rules and continued to trespass.
    True for trespassing, but irrelevant otherwise. If violating some arbitrary rule set by the owner of a road could result in summary execution, then needless to say, you'll never find me driving on that road. "Warning, people driving 5 over the speed limit will be shot on site!"
    Last edited by PaulConventionWV; 08-22-2015 at 11:31 PM.
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  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV View Post
    True, but irrelevant.
    How is that irrelevant? It directly answers your question on enforcement. Anything short of that would be subject to terms and conditions, no doubt written by lawyers. Some conventions would eventually evolve, I presume, and the market would decide.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    How is that irrelevant? It directly answers your question on enforcement. Anything short of that would be subject to terms and conditions, no doubt written by lawyers. Some conventions would eventually evolve, I presume, and the market would decide.
    So, we would start by shooting speeders on site and maybe it would cool down a little from there? Yeah, no.

    I wonder how much a road owner would pay to post snipers all along his stretch of road just so he could enforce his arbitrary rules and prevent maybe a few accidents, despite having a much higher death toll.

    Why do people have so much trouble envisioning roads where people are truly free to interact with other drivers in a way that serves the mutual interest of everyone without needing someone to intervene at some arbitrary point before an accident occurs?
    Last edited by PaulConventionWV; 08-22-2015 at 11:41 PM.
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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV View Post
    So, we would start by shooting speeders on site and maybe it would cool down a little from there?
    Comprehension is not your strong suit, is it? "Ultimately" means last, not first, measures.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV View Post
    True for trespassing, but irrelevant otherwise. If violating some arbitrary rule set by the owner of a road could result in summary execution, then needless to say, you'll never find me driving on that road. "Warning, people driving 5 over the speed limit will be shot on site!"
    It's already like that today
    A savage barbaric tribal society where thugs parade the streets and illegally assault and murder innocent civilians, yeah that is the alternative to having police. Oh wait, that is the police

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  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Comprehension is not your strong suit, is it? "Ultimately" means last, not first, measures.
    Forgive me, but you're being a bit vague, so perhaps I'm engaging in a bit of hyperbole, but it's only because I have no idea what you're actually proposing.

    While I'm sure there would be some sort of terms and conditions, I do not think it would have anything to do with speed limits or anything that would require on-the-spot monitoring to ensure control.

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the only responsibility of any private organization in a free society is to create a suitable environment, not to prevent people from becoming idiots. Sure, they can prevent known idiots from coming onto their roads, but they cannot prevent new ones from cropping up with on-the-spot monitoring and enforcement. It's so impractical it's just stupid.

    People drive on the roads at their own risk, and neither government nor road owners can save you from every idiot in the world on the spot. They can only screen out the well-known ones, but shooting people who don't obey the rules is the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and since you didn't limit that to just trespassing, I have to assume you meant sudden death for other infractions as well.
    Last edited by PaulConventionWV; 08-22-2015 at 11:50 PM.
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  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior_of_Freedom View Post
    It's already like that today
    I know, right?
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  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV View Post
    I think the reason most of us are here is because we support a free market, and I think this is a good litmus test to see if people really believe in the free market. If you think there would be a demand for controlling drivers in a private road system, then you don't understand the free market. What's more, it's not really all that speculative considering we are all supposed to share the notion that people can get around just fine without mommy/daddy government watching us to make sure we don't get hurt. We also have some evidence that traffic would flow more freely and more safely without such controls in place.
    I agree with you mostly but I think that its possible that in an inner city there'd be more demand for speed limits. Both because people are more statist and because speeding is more likely to be more dangerous a higher percentage of the time. At the least if it were free market it wouldn't be arbitrary.
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  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV View Post
    I think the reason most of us are here is because we support a free market, and I think this is a good litmus test to see if people really believe in the free market.
    Not entirely sure about that, but I'm inclined to agree. A lot of people like socialist roads because they are stuck on archaic models of classical commonwealths.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV View Post
    If you think there would be a demand for controlling drivers in a private road system, then you don't understand the free market.
    Zuh? "Controlling" here strikes me as antithetical to laissez-faire. Expand on this so we're on the same page.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV View Post
    What's more, it's not really all that speculative considering we are all supposed to share the notion that people can get around just fine without mommy/daddy government watching us to make sure we don't get hurt. We also have some evidence that traffic would flow more freely and more safely without such controls in place.
    Disagree. There's a difference between theory and practice, which I notice tends to turn off non-libertarians to libertarian models. You're right that there are a few private roads, roundabouts, etc, and they are demonstrably better. BUT, AFAIK, it hasn't been done on a scale that would convince someone you and I are trying to persuade to favor privatization of public goods. If I'm wrong, please educate me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
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