Here's a nice, short, video featuring Shikha Dalmia debunking the anti-immigration myths that the Trump-trolls have been pushing here lately.
Here's a more detailed study she's written on the subject. As I understand it, her views on this are not at all peculiar, and are essentially those of the consensus of economists from virtually all schools of thought.
http://reason.org/files/immigration_...an_borders.pdf
Every job she listed off low skilled immigrants do are being done by native born Americans as I type. It's a total scam that Americans won't do those jobs. Hell when I was 12-15 I had a lawn care business in the neighborhood. I think we had close to 25 homes we'd take care of weekly. When I went to college the prize summer jobs between the Spring session and Fall were in construction. Earn big money to help offset the expense of school.Originally Posted by erowe1
The Reason Foundation is funded by those that benefit from and endless supply of cheap labor.
The Reason Foundation is funded, in part, by what are known as the "Koch Family Foundations,"[3] and David Koch serves as a Reason trustee
So? Does that somehow detract from any of her points?
That's all of us.
Everyone knows we need people for low skilled jobs. What we don't need, are people coming from other countries through the 'backdoor'.
Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.
Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine
"I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."
We don't need em
http://www.creators.com/print/conser...s-vs-need.html
What's the back door? And why does it matter if that's the door they come through?
Nobody said we "need" them. But they improve our economy.
No they don't. All they do is drive down wages for the native working poor and grow government.
Home building is "low-skilled" work eh?
Ya'll deserve the crap you're living in!
Did ya' ever wonder why so many old homes are still standing and so many new ones are falling down?
It's a low-bid orgy out there.......
This just drives me crazy. Why do we define skills as book knowledge? The high skill illegals in my neighborhood are in construction. The Latinos rolled into town and totally displaced black day labor. Latinos offered really high skills and craftsmanship at lower prices. They can build or fix anything.
My husband, who is college educated, was without work all last summer. He had a hard time because his skills are strictly computer and office skills.
Skills set is a relative term. A worker who can put up drywall and is also good at plumbing will be taken over the worker who only does drywall. Drywall, plumbing, wiring, flooring and interior trim trumps everything. They have developed their own economy here, and by all appearances are doing well. They buy homes. When they go out, they and their kids are well dressed, know how to behave, and have lots of money to spend.
The people who seem to have a hard time are the entrepreneurs and service industry people because of their reluctance to learn English.
Of course, I'm not some fancy economist with a limited life experience. I live and work in my community. What do I know?
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“I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi
Great post. Fits right in with the video in the OP. By providing the very valuable labor that they provide at lower costs, foreign immigrants free up native workers to do other jobs that further improve the economy, and add a premium to the value those native workers have in things like their fluency in English.
Over 30 years in the trades here....
Low skilled immigrant labor is not a good thing for the average homeowner/buyer, however they're really profitable for builders and home flippers.
Like I said it's a low-bid orgy out there.........(Don't catch something!)
Certainly not in the way they vote. This is the reason behind "white flight". Once low skilled minorities and their sympathizers get control of the electoral system, everything goes to hell. Business is chased out, school quality drops, crime goes through the roof. So everyone who can get out, does.
Secondly, if the US really wants to position itself for the future economy, it needs more high skilled, and less low skilled workers. Technology is competing with low skilled labor, and dragging down prices. Pretty soon the only way an unskilled, unsociable, unattractive person will be able to barter a job is by working for pennies. Meanwhile, people working a skilled job are making millions.
The future economy demands brains, not bodies. In the future even a 5 point IQ difference might result in a $50,000 a year difference in income. That's how much the economy thirsts for and demands brain power. It's pretty much the main attribute machines can't replace yet. Soon they will, and then our main asset will be our creativity and vision.
That's a false dichotomy. What it needs is the free flow of labor so that whatever labor is needed anywhere at any time can get there. The competition between low-skilled labor and machinery is a good thing, and it's on account of both of those factors that it is.
Take a look at how rich white people vote some time and ask yourself how that's working out.
The free flow of goods and services is good. The free flow of labor is a disaster. Goods and services expire. People breed and cultures change and not always for the benefit of the host country. Europe is discovering this the hard way.
Simple economics. We have no labor shortages in any sector of the economy. If we did wages would be exploding, but in fact wages have been stagnant or declining for 25 years. The top 1 percent like me have done very well. The middle class is suffering.
Letting other people live according to a culture different than you doesn't mean you can't keep living according to yours. I certainly don't want to use the government to manage all of the cultures in the USA and try to compel you to live according to mine, and I hope you will agree to do the same for me and everyone else. There should be a wall of separation between culture and state.
The free flow of labor is good for the economy exactly the same way the free flow of goods is. And the more free the flow of labor is, the more it emulates goods in its ability to expire. People with no roots in a locality can move in to work for a brief time and then move out to work elsewhere for a brief time, following the need for labor wherever it is.
Simple economics says you're wrong, according to the consensus of economists of all schools of thought (except marxists, who agree with you). As long as the world is imperfect, there is labor that can be done to improve it. More improvement to the world (as determined by the free choices made by all individuals aggregated together) is the same thing as better economy. How many maids and servants do you have? I can't afford even a single one any as of yet. Having all the labor we could use is impossible, and we're a very long way from being able to pretend we're anywhere close to that.
Last edited by erowe1; 08-18-2015 at 09:16 AM.
Competition is the essence of capitalist economic model so more competition is good, even in the labor markets like any other market, falling wages leads to falling prices, wages continuously fell in the 19th century but so did prices; if it isn't working that way then Fed is to blame for diluting purchasing-power, not the labor market competition, restricting competition in the labor market will lead to even higher prices & worse living-standards for everybody in the future so labor competition shouldn't be a concern for any true capitalist.
The real problem with immigration as far as I'm concerned, as you've pointed out, is sociocultural; so restricting citizenship (including birthright citizenship), restricting welfare services & electoral participation etc would be some of the prerequisites if free work-immigration is to be allowed.
There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman
Falling wages leads to falling prices in general. But as technology advances, the market starts screaming for brainpower. There isn't guaranteed to be a certain amount of unskilled labor that the market demands just because.
For example, imagine you've trained your entire life as a dentist, you have 20 years invested in the study and practice of dentistry. Then a new technology emerges that results in permanently clean, healthy teeth. All of a sudden, you're out of work, your skills don't mean anything. The only way you can get work is by lowering your wage more and more and more, until it's at practically zero. It will never be impossible for you to find work, but the work you can get is for such a low wage as to make it barely worth your time.
Now think about all jobs done by unskilled laborers that are being replaced by machinery. In order to compete with the machines (without becoming more skilled), they need to drop their wages down to pennies. Meanwhile, the wages for skilled labor shoot up drastically. If you can be operating one of these machines instead of trying to compete with them, now all of a sudden you're making serious money.
As a worker, you are sort of like a tool. You are designed to accomplish a specific task in a specific way based on your training and experience. So let's further that analogy and take it literally. Let's say you're a simple horse drawn plow, and all of a sudden the internal combustion engine comes along. Well obviously, you're going to be a lot less valuable now that we have this superior tool to do the work you used to do. Your value gets crushed down almost to zero. Maybe if you're lucky, you'll find a place in a museum somewhere. In such a scenario, the last thing our government should do is import as many horse drawn plows as possible.
Glad to see my post about her interested you. I knew you would find some common ground with her.
(p.s. already saw this video).
"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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Low skill is a relative term. A person who cannot read and do math is probably low skill for most jobs, but knowing how to build a deck or put on a door is not low skill.
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“I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi
In a free market, you need free flow of both capital and labor- so that it can go to where it is best utilized. Lower wages means lower prices. If labor costs are higher, prices will be too. Problem is we want both the high wages and the low prices. Can't have both.
If you can't import cheap labor, you export the jobs to where the cheap labor is. That is why jobs have gone to China. Then those low wage workers spend their incomes in India and China instead of buying things here- creating more jobs in the US.
But at any rate, what is happening with illegal labor?
Last edited by Zippyjuan; 08-18-2015 at 11:02 AM.
You're basically saying that unskilled laborers are "entitled" to some certain living-standard at the expense of everybody else. Sorry but socialist much?
Besides, you're ignoring one of the basic economic laws that lower prices increase demand for a valuable resource with a finite supply, & labor is a valuable resource with a finite supply; so as erowe has said, now maybe only the rich are able to afford a bunch of servants, drivers, gardeners & whatever but if wages keep falling as you're saying, even the middle-classes will be able to afford them, & bear in mind, at that point, with better machinery & higher production, EVERYBODY will be better because the whole economy will be bigger & more prosperous due lower prices & higher efficiency. It's sad that I'm having to link you your own post explaining the same - http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5855816
So everybody should keep paying a high price for dental work so that the dentist is able to keep his living-standard? Really?
Sure, dentists will be hit hard in the presented scenario but the money that people may save on their dental work will be spent/invested elsewhere, which will create different kinds of jobs in producing whatever it is that people want more of instead.
Again, you're basically arguing that unskilled workers are "entitled" to a certain living-standard. How is that thinking in any way in line with capitalism? It's what socialists & communists ask for. Under a capitalist system, you earn by serving people with your land, labor, capital through voluntary transactions, & whatever you earn in the process is what you "deserve", nothing more, nothing less, there are no socialist guarantees of "minimum living-standard"; & if someone thinks that they aren't making enough, then they just got to raise their game, not ask for handouts at the expense of other people.
So you think government should block imports of "combustion engines" so that "horse drawn plows" don't lose their value even though everybody else is worse off because of it?
Look, all you're asking for is a government favor to block competition. I mean you would be against it if a bunch of American companies wanted the government to block off their competition so how would doing a similar thing in the labor market be deemed beneficial or justifiable? It can't be.
There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman
I agree. It's unsettling to read all the anti-immigration comments, especially on this website from people who should know better. My biggest concern with immigrants is that they tend to vote socialist. But the "cheap labor being bad for the economy" is total BS. The reason we have high unemployment is not because of illegal immigrants taking our jobs. It's because the government makes it too expensive to hire legal workers. Get rid of all the ways government adds to the cost of hiring a legal worker and businesses will hire legal workers. For example payroll taxes, minimum wage laws, discrimination laws, overtime laws, etc, etc.
I hate it when businesses get targeted for hiring illegals. As if it's not already $#@!ing hard enough to run a business in this country. And the silly idea that if we just force businesses to hire legal workers, that'll fix everything. Bull$#@!. All that will do is bankrupt a lot of companies and force the rest to raise their prices. Cheap, illegal labor probably SAVES jobs. Suppose you have a business that has 50 illegal workers and 50 legal workers. If you force that business to hire all legal workers there's a good chance they'll go bankrupt and instead of 50 legal workers you'll have ZERO!
Whoever says this cheap labor is cheap is delusional. A lot of these people get government benefits.
A savage barbaric tribal society where thugs parade the streets and illegally assault and murder innocent civilians, yeah that is the alternative to having police. Oh wait, that is the police
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How to trigger a liberal: "I didn't get vaccinated."
They are more likely to be working than citizens.
http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/...s-us-born-men/
Illegals aren't eligible for Federal benefits.WASHINGTON, DC — An illegal immigrant male residing in the United States is more likely to be gainfully employed than a male who is a legal immigrant or U.S.-born citizen, a senior demographer at the Pew Research Center think tank told lawmakers.
In 2012, the most recent year for which data is available, an estimated 91 percent of illegal immigrant males were in the workforce. This compares to 84 percent of legal immigrant men and 79 percent of U.S.-born males, Pew Research Center demographer Jeffrey Passel wrote in testimony prepared for a March 26 hearing held by the Senate Homeland Security & Government Affairs Committee.
Put in a different way, legal and illegal immigrant males had a better chance to be in the workforce than U.S.-born men in 2012.
yep I guarantee you if it needs to be done they( the business) will get it done even without the illegals
"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it."
James Madison
"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." - Samuel Adams
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You keep saying that but you know you are lying. They get state benefits also which get subsidized by the fed. You are 100% out of touch with what is really going on regarding federal and local assistance programs.
"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it."
James Madison
"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." - Samuel Adams
Μολὼν λάβε
Dum Spiro, Pugno
Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito
Lots of yuppies use 'em for lawn care, nannies and basic home maintenance (per the video)....
It's these silk pantied wastes of air that'll cry loudest if they're forced to pay market wages for their "help"....
Actual productive businesses that use illegal labor in their business plans aren't all that common around these parts, chicken and turkey processing is all that comes to mind....
And yet nobody has been able to prove that it is an incorrect statement. It doesn't fit the "immigrants are lazy bums here just for the bennies" 91% illegal males are in the labor force? That doesn't sound lazy, sit at home collecting government checks.
Last edited by Zippyjuan; 08-18-2015 at 01:59 PM.
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