Does the USA even deserve a Paul presidency?

[NaturalMystic]

Spoke with an elder of a local Mennonite church today who recalled a recent conversation with someone you placed some of the blame of our political situation on their church because they do not vote. His summarized response to them was "What makes you think America deserves a good President?" Their sermon yesterday was "blessed are the peacemakers". It truly made me wonder. FWIW

[Jan2017]

. . . Their sermon yesterday was "blessed are the peacemakers". It truly made me wonder. FWIW

from Matthew - The Beautitudes . . . "Blessed are the peacemakers . . . "

[wizardwatson]

From a Christian point of view in my opinion this country is toast anyways. We're just counting the hours at this point.

Does America "deserve" to be blessed again by prosperity and peace? Probably not.
Does that mean every American deserves to suffer under her current cursed state? Don't think so.

I see the liberty movement and this forum much like the musicians who continued to play when the Titanic was going down. It isn't about results so much as carrying the tune.

"Gentlemen, it's been a privilege playing with you tonight."



Nearer, my God, to Thee, nearer to Thee!
E’en though it be a cross that raiseth me,
Still all my song shall be, nearer, my God, to Thee.

Nearer, my God, to Thee,
Nearer to Thee!

Though like the wanderer, the sun gone down,
Darkness be over me, my rest a stone.
Yet in my dreams I’d be nearer, my God to Thee.

There let the way appear, steps unto Heav’n;
All that Thou sendest me, in mercy given;
Angels to beckon me nearer, my God, to Thee.

Then, with my waking thoughts bright with Thy praise,
Out of my stony griefs Bethel I’ll raise;
So by my woes to be nearer, my God, to Thee.

Or, if on joyful wing cleaving the sky,
Sun, moon, and stars forgot, upward I’ll fly,
Still all my song shall be, nearer, my God, to Thee.

There in my Father’s home, safe and at rest,
There in my Savior’s love, perfectly blest;
Age after age to be, nearer my God to Thee.

[65fastback2+2]

Ive been asking myself same recently...does it deserve to try and be fixed? or should I be just preparing for when it crashes and burns.


currently, I believe all the men that sacrificed and fought for what I and we believe in would say it deserves the try to be fixed.

[hells_unicorn]

Spoke with an elder of a local Mennonite church today who recalled a recent conversation with someone you placed some of the blame of our political situation on their church because they do not vote. His summarized response to them was "What makes you think America deserves a good President?" Their sermon yesterday was "blessed are the peacemakers". It truly made me wonder. FWIW

The Mennonites are anarchists, they have zero care for anything that happens outside of their sectarian order as it pertains to the body politic, precisely because they don't believe in a body politic outside of their "group". They'll follow the scriptures regarding being at peace with outsiders and engaging in commerce with them, but any part of scripture dealing with lawful magistrates (Romans 13, 1 Peter 2:13-14, Ezra 7:25-26; 1 Timothy 2:1-2, 2 Samuel 23:3, Exodus 22:28) is conveniently ignored.

There is a reason why Martin Luther, John Calvin, and the other mainline Reformers wanted nothing to do with the fanaticism of the Anabaptists and were at war with them, they were destructive to the reformation and a thorn in the side of the unity of the nations in which they were situated, essentially forerunners of Marxism. The Mennonites have renounced the violence of their spiritual ancestors, but not their indifference to the fate of nations.

Seeking political advice from these people is folly, though I am very much in awe of their work ethic and have regular business dealings with them and their Amish cousins.

[Dianne]

The Mennonites are anarchists, they have zero care for anything that happens outside of their sectarian order as it pertains to the body politic, precisely because they don't believe in a body politic outside of their "group". They'll follow the scriptures regarding being at peace with outsiders and engaging in commerce with them, but any part of scripture dealing with lawful magistrates (Romans 13, 1 Peter 2:13-14, Ezra 7:25-26; 1 Timothy 2:1-2, 2 Samuel 23:3, Exodus 22:28) is conveniently ignored.

There is a reason why Martin Luther, John Calvin, and the other mainline Reformers wanted nothing to do with the fanaticism of the Anabaptists and were at war with them, they were destructive to the reformation and a thorn in the side of the unity of the nations in which they were situated, essentially forerunners of Marxism. The Mennonites have renounced the violence of their spiritual ancestors, but not their indifference to the fate of nations.

Seeking political advice from these people is folly, though I am very much in awe of their work ethic and have regular business dealings with them and their Amish cousins.

Maybe I belong with them. I am an anarchist at heart. I have never enjoyed one benefit from being under Federal Government law. I have paid them from the time of birth, to my age of 63 now ... and they have returned not a cent of what I have given them. Now I'm forced to buy Obamacare... Now, my dollars each month are being used for sex change operations .. Really? This is what I worked for from age 16 to 63, subsidizing sex change operations ... yet, they will pull the plug on me to die when a medical emergency occurs.

If I had my way, there would be no Federal Government as of 20 years ago .... that is even too late.

[hells_unicorn]

Maybe I belong with them. I am an anarchist at heart. I have never enjoyed one benefit from being under Federal Government law. I have paid them from the time of birth, to my age of 63 now ... and they have returned not a cent of what I have given them. Now I'm forced to buy Obamacare... Now, my dollars each month are being used for sex change operations .. Really? This is what I worked for from age 16 to 63, subsidizing sex change operations ... yet, they will pull the plug on me to die when a medical emergency occurs.

If I had my way, there would be no Federal Government as of 20 years ago .... that is even too late.

Opposing the Federal government and being an anarchist are not the same thing, I share the general desire for the Fed to be abolished and the reinstatement of the original Articles of Confederation. However, unlike the Mennonites, I believe in the concept of a lawfully constituted magistrate that enforces laws, rather than simply being an insular sectarian who lays down when a conqueror is at my doorstep.

The folly with the OP is expecting wisdom to be imparted from listening to a Mennonite elder who obviously doesn't have a dog in this fight, though I find additional folly in Mennonite theology, but that is another discussion for another forum.

[afwjam]

I would consider the Amish and Mennonites to be fantastic examples of what I'm going for philosophically since being turned on by Dr. Paul. It is anarchism and it is so beautifully demonstrated by them in a rather extreme retro manor with the Amish or a milder yet still different world with the Mennonites, cars but no radios. I was raised as part of a Quaker community so my ideals already weren't far off. I value the experiment that was William Penns Pennsylvania, even though he ended up struggling for control and taxes over it in the end. It is a shining example for those of us in this realm of belief, far better then Somalia and what better, more independent, hard working and peaceful people to show the world could we find? I'm of a younger generation, defined by this medium we are communicating on, another more modern and wild yet still shining example of the same principals. The only person with more power over me then me is God and I can't argue with his rulebook. The rest of the bull$#@! can pack it up and move out of my life, especially "nations", I got $#@! to do and no time to do it with people forcing their way.

[Jan2017]

The Mennonites are anarchists, they have zero care for anything that happens outside of their sectarian order as it pertains to the body politic,
precisely because they don't believe in a body politic outside of their "group".

Maybe I belong with them.

If I had my way, there would be no Federal Government as of 20 years ago .... that is even too late.

I think that Mennonites don't even vote - they do NOT regard it as a civic responsibility.

[afwjam]

I think that Mennonites don't even vote - they do NOT regard it as a civic responsibility.

Thank god, one of this biggest threats facing this world is that people think it's their civic duty to $#@! other people's lives. Time to abolish or more realistically reserve such absolute power to God and his nature.

[hells_unicorn]

I would consider the Amish and Mennonites to be fantastic examples of what I'm going for philosophically since being turned on by Dr. Paul. It is anarchism and it is so beautifully demonstrated by them in a rather extreme retro manor with the Amish or a milder yet still different world with the Mennonites, cars but no radios. I was raised as part of a Quaker community so my ideals already weren't far off. I value the experiment that was William Penns Pennsylvania, even though he ended up struggling for control and taxes over it in the end. It is a shining example for those of us in this realm of belief, far better then Somalia and what better, more independent, hard working and peaceful people to show the world could we find? I'm of a younger generation, defined by this medium we are communicating on, another more modern and wild yet still shining example of the same principals. The only person with more power over me then me is God and I can't argue with his rulebook. The rest of the bull$#@! can pack it up and move out of my life, especially "nations", I got $#@! to do and no time to do it with people forcing their way.

This is the dividing line between sectarians and Christians, the former does as they please (nice how so many prominent Christ-hating atheists came out of the so-called "Society of Friends", including but not limited to Kersey Graves and Thomas Paine), the latter cares about lawful society and obedience to God's Word.

Oh, and if Ron Paul was such an anarchist, why was he doing all that yammering about following the U.S. Constitution? That document was the blueprint for the eventual tyrannical takeover of the states and the hegemony of Uncle Sam.

[hells_unicorn]

Thank god, one of this biggest threats facing this world is that people think it's their civic duty to $#@! other people's lives. Time to abolish or more realistically reserve such absolute power to God and his nature.

God instituted magistrates in scripture, read Romans 13 and the other passages I cited in post#5. The problem with America is not that it has a government, it is that it has lawless/insubordinate government. If you can't tell the difference, you may want to refrain from speaking about God's (with a capital "G") nature, or any of his other attributes.

[afwjam]

Are you arguing that Ron is not an anarchist? I'm not promising you a perfect world, no such thing exists and God will teach you that.

[hells_unicorn]

Are you arguing that Ron is not an anarchist? I'm not promising you a perfect world, no such thing exists and God will teach you that.

No, arguing that Ron Paul was not an anarchist would imply that there was some question in the matter, he clearly wasn't given that he ran for office on a "pro-constitution" platform, let alone his support for the Afghan war.

Oh, and your second point is factually incorrect, the entire Gospel narrative is the promise of a perfect world in Christ, that's something that God already taught me, maybe one day he'll do the same with you if you care to pick up his word and get some help from The Holy Spirit.

[afwjam]

We seem to believe in a different God, mine takes care of ALL the judgement. I just try my best to avoid it.


P.S. Believe it or not, the surely godless and sectarian company that is Apple automatically capitalizes God and all the other things that end up capitalized in my writing. I don't usually bother with capitals, kinda in my Quaker nature

[fr33]

I don't think the US deserves a good president, but maybe the rest of the world does. When you take into account the havoc wreaked upon certain countries by the US military, maybe we should try to elect someone that couldn't star in the next SAW sequel as the villain. Of course that won't happen and I get why people choose not to bother with it.

[afwjam]

"When will they cease and desist!" - Dr. No

[TheTexan]

Ive been asking myself same recently...does it deserve to try and be fixed? or should I be just preparing for when it crashes and burns.


currently, I believe all the men that sacrificed and fought for what I and we believe in would say it deserves the try to be fixed.

Yes, we can vote our way out of this mess, or at least die trying.

[hells_unicorn]

We seem to believe in a different God, mine takes care of ALL the judgement. I just try my best to avoid it.

P.S. Believe it or not, the surely godless and sectarian company that is Apple automatically capitalizes God and all the other things that end up capitalized in my writing. I don't usually bother with capitals, kinda in my Quaker nature

You are correct, we do believe in a different God, the God of the Quakers and the Christian Triune God are not one and the same. The Holy Trinity is eternal, and has had prophets declaring the glory of The Lord going back to the beginning, whereas the Quaker God was dreamed up by George Fox (England's Joseph Smith) back in the 17th century.

Tell you what, look up the following verses and then come back and tell me why you think the bible condones any church that doesn't ordain pastoral officers: Mark 3:14-15, Luke 6:13, Acts 6:6, Acts 13:3, Acts 14:23, 1 Timothy 1:18, 1 Timothy 4:14, 1 Timothy 5:22; 2 Timothy 1:6, Titus 1:5.

[afwjam]

I don't have to look it up, the light is within me as it is you. I might go further with your church authority thing and say that the bible has filtered through a little to many human "authorities" for my liking at times. Anyways you seem to have a wicked sense of judgement to you so I will bow out at this time and wish you peace and happiness.

[fr33]

Yes, we can vote our way out of this mess, or at least die trying.

[afwjam]

By the way in eight days is the anniversary of the conclusion of the council of Nicaea. Where human authorities decided on the divinity of God and concluded on the trinity. I won't spend my time arguing with you about it and instead just try and be good for when my true judgement comes to pass and we have all heard the true gospels.

[Christian Liberty]

The Mennonites are anarchists, they have zero care for anything that happens outside of their sectarian order as it pertains to the body politic, precisely because they don't believe in a body politic outside of their "group". They'll follow the scriptures regarding being at peace with outsiders and engaging in commerce with them, but any part of scripture dealing with lawful magistrates (Romans 13, 1 Peter 2:13-14, Ezra 7:25-26; 1 Timothy 2:1-2, 2 Samuel 23:3, Exodus 22:28) is conveniently ignored.

There is a reason why Martin Luther, John Calvin, and the other mainline Reformers wanted nothing to do with the fanaticism of the Anabaptists and were at war with them, they were destructive to the reformation and a thorn in the side of the unity of the nations in which they were situated, essentially forerunners of Marxism. The Mennonites have renounced the violence of their spiritual ancestors, but not their indifference to the fate of nations.

Seeking political advice from these people is folly, though I am very much in awe of their work ethic and have regular business dealings with them and their Amish cousins.

I agree with you, and not the Mennonites, on this point. Even still, I think the man has a point. I think the "religious right" and its neoconservatism is much more to blame than people who just aren't getting involved. Especially when "good President" is usually defined as the likes of Mitt Romney or John McCain rather than a Ron or Rand Paul, or better yet, someone like Gary North or Joel McDurmon.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_October#Events

[Christian Liberty]

No, arguing that Ron Paul was not an anarchist would imply that there was some question in the matter, he clearly wasn't given that he ran for office on a "pro-constitution" platform, let alone his support for the Afghan war.

Oh, and your second point is factually incorrect, the entire Gospel narrative is the promise of a perfect world in Christ, that's something that God already taught me, maybe one day he'll do the same with you if you care to pick up his word and get some help from The Holy Spirit.

Meh, Ron Paul sometimes said anarcho-capitalist sounding things. Although that's not really "anarchism" though that's often how its defined here.

But its true, other times he said more constitutionalist things. He's always pretty consistently for the non-aggression principle though, so I doubt he's really for any level of taxation. When he's asked about "anarcho-capitalism" he usually says he's not quite there but when asked about "voluntarism" he sounds pretty much 100% for it on philosophical principle. But really they're the same thing, at least for all intents and purposes (the one difference is that a voluntarist could theoretically support voluntary communes as a mode of social organization, or something like that, whereas any type of "capitalist" generally wouldn't by definition, but that's not Ron Paul anyways.)

At any rate, whether Ron is "really" an ancap or not has been debated ad nauseum. "Minarchism" is closer to my beliefs based on the references you gave (although theonomy doesn't totally fit under that label) but I really don't care if Ron is an ancap or not. We need a massive paradigm shift away from statism, and having an ancap Presidnet would not ever bring us totally to ancap within four years. And even if somehow it did, I would consider that massively preferable to the current situation (the main problem would be that the "non-aggression principle" would probably be the standard for civil enforcement, which isn't really Biblical, although its more Biblical than the status quo of arbitrary enforcement. Proverbs 3:30 does endorse non-aggression as a GENERAL principle where the Word of God doesn't command otherwise). So really, I don't care. It is undeniable that Ron hangs out with anarcho-capitalists and is influenced by them. Incidentally, his homeschooling curriuculum is being taught by both an ancap and a theonomist. That doesn't really tell me much other than that Ron is willing to work with a variety of different types of pro-liberty people, but it is interesting.

[goldwater's ghost]

if you add up the anti establishment vote in the GOP from the latest FOX poll you get 50% (Trump 25, Carson 12, Cruz 10, Rand 3). The good news is the revolution is here. The cinder that Ron Paul started is now a raging fire. The bad news is Rand isnt selling himself properly. Trump stole alot of his votes and what kills me is he is a one issue guy....immigration. Rand had a very similiar platform but he didnt emphasize it and by failing to do that he allowed Trump to be indentified with it. If Rand is going to get back in the game he's gotta stick to economics and immigration. Those are the two drivers of the GOP election. Yes, liberty is important but its not the driving force of this election. This is the time when the big boys come out to play and that means seeing the land for what it is and not what you want it to be

[anaconda]

A lot of time and energy is spent here and elsewhere without any interest or support from the majority of the electorate. Why are we all trying to tell them what's best for them or what they should want? Most of them would be willing to take a bullet to the head at an open grave before doing an ounce of research regarding the state of social policy. It is a choice that may not necessarily be wrong for these people. We may all be barking up the wrong tree.

[Cutlerzzz]

Half this board doesn't even want a Rand presidency anymore.

[Paul Or Nothing II]

As has been said above, people can't vote their way out of tyranny! America is an empire in decline, it's better to prepare for the inevitable fall, be prepared for the socioeconomic, racial, cultural & civil warfare, & the violence that will ensue; "we", the libertarians (anarchists, minarchists, whatever), should stick together when the time comes, & be ready to seize the opportunities presented to carve out our own path that allows us to maximize our freedoms.....

[asurfaholic]

As has been said above, people can't vote their way out of tyranny! America is an empire in decline, it's better to prepare for the inevitable fall, be prepared for the socioeconomic, racial, cultural & civil warfare, & the violence that will ensue; "we", the libertarians (anarchists, minarchists, whatever), should stick together when the time comes, & be ready to seize the opportunities presented to carve out our own path that allows us to maximize our freedoms.....

Extremely naive. "We" and all the other small groups of people fighting for power will be annihilated because that is the plan all along, and nobody will be able to stop the coming tyranny. The collapse is not going to be some easy open door to restore a free America.