Originally Posted by
OReich
Alright, I'll concede to a huge part of your argument, which is that those senators quoted did not intend for foreigners to be considered under our jurisdiction, and you've got me 90% of the way to saying there is no birthright citizenship to those born to foreign parents. My one issue is that the 14th amendment still says "jurisdiction," and so those senators could still be wrong. This isn't some weird argument, you can find lawmakers on the record with disagreement about what a bill means, and then they all vote to pass it, making legislative intent ambiguous. Seriously though, you've got me 90% of the way there. But I can't stand the idea that the constitution means anything other than its plain, unambiguous meaning. Their use of the word jurisdiction ("full and complete") still looks like it could be only THEIR understanding of it, because its not in the 14th amendment.
Also, I'm not interpreting "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" to be meaningless, it has a plain, obvious, and useful meaning that makes it absolutely essential to the 14th amendment. The 14th amendment was passed to deal with what many saw as the failure of the 13th amendment. Ppl thought that banning slavery in the 13th would leave us with a classless, equal society, and then when Jim Crow laws popped up, they sued in court under the 13th amendment, saying that political discrimination was effectively slavery under a new name. The courts rejected this, so the 14th amendment was drafted, and the language of the 14th is all-encompassing, redundant and overlapping, to make sure its its 'invincible' in a courtroom, and that no one could get around it to justify discrimination. Hence the privileges and immunities clause was written to limit the legislature's power, the due process clause was written to limit the judiciary's power, and the equal protection clause was written to limit the executive's power; but each of the clauses are open-ended and overlapping in their language. They wanted each of those three clauses to be effective against all branches, they wanted to cover all their bases. Everything in the 14th amendment is overkill to make sure no discriminatory laws could possibly survive a challenge. Hence, "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" was meant to encompass our diplomats in foreign nations, and members of the armed services not currently in the US. It also, conversely, keeps out diplomats and soldiers of foreign nations currently in the US, since they're NOT under our jurisdiction by the exact same logic.
So when I look at "subject to the jurisdiction thereof," it has a plain, obvious, logical purpose. I'd like to see if ppl other than those senators actually used the word "jurisdiction" in the way they describe it, where jurisdiction was considered "limited" and "partial" as to foreign nationals. That implies that a US court has limited jurisdiction over a foreigner simply due to treaties with other countries, but this is absurd. We had partial jurisdiction as to Indians and diplomats/soldiers, that as it. Our country had 100% jurisdiction over anyone walking on our land, with the exception of special rules for Indians/diplomats/soldiers, which were based on specific treaties saying they carried their foreign jurisdiction/sovereignty with them. The fact that a few senators in 1866 said that we did not have jurisdiction over foreigners isn't enough for me, because senators aren't gods or geniuses. I want to see what the definition of jurisdiction back then really was, and two senators isn't enough for me. Two senators in 1866 have as much intelligence as two senators in 2015, and you have congressmen misusing legal terms all the time.
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