God’s Simple Plan of Salvation

[Ronin Truth]

God’s Simple Plan of Salvation My Friend: I am asking you the most important question of life. Your joy or your sorrow for all eternity depends upon your answer. The question is: Are you saved? It is not a question of how good you are, nor if you are a church member, but are you saved? Are you sure you will go to Heaven when you die? God says in order to go to Heaven, you must be born again. In John 3:7, Jesus said to Nicodemus, “Ye must be born again.” In the Bible God gives us the plan of how to be born again which means to be saved. His plan is simple! You can be saved today. How? First, my friend, you must realize you are a sinner. “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Because you are a sinner, you are condemned to death. “For the wages [payment] of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). This includes eternal separation from God in Hell. “ . . . it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). But God loved you so much He gave His only begotten Son, Jesus, to bear your sin and die in your place. “ . . . He hath made Him [Jesus, Who knew no sin] to be sin for us . . . that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus had to shed His blood and die. “For the life of the flesh is in the blood” (Lev. 17:11). “ . . . without shedding of blood is no remission [pardon]” (Hebrews 9:22). “ . . . God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). Although we cannot understand how, God said my sins and your sins were laid upon Jesus and He died in our place. He became our substitute. It is true. God cannot lie. My friend, “God . . . commandeth all men everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30). This repentance is a change of mind that agrees with God that one is a sinner, and also agrees with what Jesus did for us on the Cross. In Acts 16:30-31, the Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas: “ . . . ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ And they said, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved . . . .’ ” Simply believe on Him as the one who bore your sin, died in your place, was buried, and whom God resurrected. His resurrection powerfully assures that the believer can claim everlasting life when Jesus is received as Savior. “But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name” (John 1:12). “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Romans 10:13). Whosoever includes you. Shall be saved means not maybe, nor can, but shall be saved. Surely, you realize you are a sinner. Right now, wherever you are, repenting, lift your heart to God in prayer. In Luke 18:13, the sinner prayed: “God be merciful to me a sinner.” Just pray: “Oh God, I know I am a sinner. I believe Jesus was my substitute when He died on the Cross. I believe His shed blood, death, burial, and resurrection were for me. I now receive Him as my Savior. I thank You for the forgiveness of my sins, the gift of salvation and everlasting life, because of Your merciful grace. Amen.” Just take God at His word and claim His salvation by faith. Believe, and you will be saved. No church, no lodge, no good works can save you. Remember, God does the saving. All of it! God’s simple plan of salvation is: You are a sinner. Therefore, unless you believe on Jesus Who died in your place, you will spend eternity in Hell. If you believe on Him as your crucified, buried, and risen Savior, you receive forgiveness for all of your sins and His gift of eternal salvation by faith. You say, “Surely, it cannot be that simple.” Yes, that simple! It is scriptural. It is God’s plan. My friend, believe on Jesus and receive Him as Savior today. If His plan is not perfectly clear, read this tract over and over, without laying it down, until you understand it. Your soul is worth more than all the world. “For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?” (Mark 8:36). Be sure you are saved. If you lose your soul, you miss Heaven and lose all. Please! Let God save you this very moment. God’s power will save you, keep you saved, and enable you to live a victorious Christian life. “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it” (1 Corinthians 10:13). Do not trust your feelings. They change. Stand on God’s promises. They never change. After you are saved, there are three things to practice daily for spiritual growth: Pray -- you talk to God. Read your Bible -- God talks to you. Witness -- you talk for God. You should be baptized in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ as a public testimony of your salvation, and then unite with a Bible-believing church without delay. “Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord . . . .” (2 Timothy 1:8) “Whosoever therefore shall confess [testify of] Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 10:32).

Copyright: Robert Ford Porter, 1991

http://www.godssimpleplan.org/gsps-english.html

Gee, what would the "simple" plan be without Paul?

[wizardwatson]

God says in order to go to Heaven, you must be born again. In John 3:7, Jesus said to Nicodemus, “Ye must be born again.”

In the Bible God gives us the plan of how to be born again which means to be saved. His plan is simple! You can be saved today. How?

Problematic right out the gate.

It does not say anywhere that you must be born again to enter kingdom of heaven but the kingdom of "God". These are two different things.

The Kingdom of Heaven is a physical place. The Angel's live there, etc. The Kingdom of God is not a physical place and is more akin to the buddhist concept of Nirvana:

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Confusing these two concepts is a mistake. Which is why I recommend people use only KJV 1611 bible. Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God are not interchangeable.

Yes, you must be born again to be "completely free" but this is the final stage. Being "saved" is not the same thing. All you really need to do to be "saved" is repent and believe on Christ. And "believing on Christ" is really just having faith that repentance is a real thing. That there is forgiveness of sin for those who own up to it and turn away from it.

All this fancy talk about being "born again" to be saved isn't correct by my interpretation.

And people saying "God said" when in fact "Jesus said" is another red flag for me.

People ignore the mysteries that even Christ posited.

Matthew 22:44

While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Forget for a moment the question Jesus is actually asking them. But look at Psalm 110:1 that he's quoting. If Jesus is God, why is David recalling a conversation God is having with Jesus? Does God have a multiple personality disorder that He talks to himself?

Jesus is not God.

[Ronin Truth]

kingdom of heaven vs kingdom of god

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...48.ee3Rrv-o5_g

JGTS!

I'll SWAG that ya got a lot of rubes and yokels confused on that one.

So much for the simple plan.

How about a simple(r) plan B?

[wizardwatson]

kingdom of heaven vs kingdom of god

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...48.ee3Rrv-o5_g

JGTS!

I'll SWAG that ya got a lot of rubes and yokels confused on that one.

So much for the simple plan.

How about a simple(r) plan B?

Well, the "gist" of the OP is correct. "Believe", but repentance goes with that. Because what is it that you are "believing"? That there was a guy named Jesus who lived? No, that He came for the remission of sins. Which means to forgive those sins. So believing goes hand in hand with repentance. Why would you repent for things you've done if there were no point? Sure you might apologize or "feel bad" about those things. But why make a special effort to "turn away" altogether?

It is only by truly believing that an inner change is possible that real repentance can manifest. So "repent and believe on Christ" is really a unified action. It is at once an acknowledgement of a state of being and a denial of it.

Of course this too might seem "far off" to people.

At the basic level for someone who just has a passing interest, it simply means obey the commandments and study the Word.

[Dianne]

I really appreciate this thread. I was never deeply religious; although I did pray everyday since a child. When BuddyRey passed, I began watching youtube videos of Pastor Rick Warren. I also attend Sunday church services at the little church where BuddyRey is buried. Although I don't go in person, I listen to the broadcast live.

I want to be certain that when I pass, I'll join BuddyRey in heaven. But it's all new to me. I've given my life to Christ and committed myself to him in many of the ways Ronin's post indicates. I have never been baptized, which concerns me. Is that something I should do right away?

I guess what I'm asking is, how exactly does one be born again?

[Ronin Truth]

Well, the "gist" of the OP is correct. "Believe", but repentance goes with that. Because what is it that you are "believing"? That there was a guy named Jesus who lived? No, that He came for the remission of sins. Which means to forgive those sins. So believing goes hand in hand with repentance. Why would you repent for things you've done if there were no point? Sure you might apologize or "feel bad" about those things. But why make a special effort to "turn away" altogether?

It is only by truly believing that an inner change is possible that real repentance can manifest. So "repent and believe on Christ" is really a unified action. It is at once an acknowledgement of a state of being and a denial of it.

Of course this too might seem "far off" to people.

At the basic level for someone who just has a passing interest, it simply means obey the commandments and study the Word.

So what DID Jesus come for? I really doubt that it was for Paul.

[Sola_Fide]

So what DID Jesus come for? I really doubt that it was for Paul.

Yes, Jesus came for Paul. Jesus saved Paul after his life of persecuting Christians, and then Jesus specifically sent Paul to the Gentiles to spread the gospel.

[wizardwatson]

So what DID Jesus come for? I really doubt that it was for Paul.

Doesn't he say why he came? Am I missing something you're asking?

Matthew 26 26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

I mean it's a multi-layered mystery of what Christ's life represents and the reasons he came but certainly "savior" is well enough understood and chief among them.

And Paul was certainly a sinner and chief among them so in that since he came for Paul as much if not more than any of the rest of us.

[heavenlyboy34]

I really appreciate this thread. I was never deeply religious; although I did pray everyday since a child. When BuddyRey passed, I began watching youtube videos of Pastor Rick Warren. I also attend Sunday church services at the little church where BuddyRey is buried. Although I don't go in person, I listen to the broadcast live.

I want to be certain that when I pass, I'll join BuddyRey in heaven. But it's all new to me. I've given my life to Christ and committed myself to him in many of the ways Ronin's post indicates. I have never been baptized, which concerns me. Is that something I should do right away?

I guess what I'm asking is, how exactly does one be born again?

IMO, you should think about it and pray on it for a while. Attend a church and observe. Ask questions. Perhaps read literature the pastor suggests to you. As a catechumen, I was required to attend liturgies for 6 months or so IIRC before my chrismation. Most denominations will baptize you as soon as you want, though. Try putting yourself through your own "catechumen" stage-dedicate a certain amount of time to attending services and maybe bible studies if you're so inclined. If you're becoming protestant or non-denominational, this process can be as long or short as you want. God bless you, and peace to you on your path! ~hugs~

[Sola_Fide]

So what DID Jesus come for?

Good question. Here is the answer:

Luke 19:10

For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Notice that Jesus came to seek and SAVE the lost.

He doesn't merely offer salvation to everyone and they choose it like your OP says. He actually SAVES who HE chooses.

[wizardwatson]

Good question. Here is the answer:



Notice that Jesus came to seek and SAVE the lost.

He doesn't merely offer salvation to everyone and they choose it like your OP says. He actually SAVES who HE chooses.

When you are a myopic one-trick pony that says the same thing over and over and over you tend to make mistakes.

First, no one "who for" but "what for". Second, you are wrong. He saves who his Father has chosen. Christ is the savior. God is the deliverer.

John 17:9-10 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Indeed, they belong to Christ, but Christ did not choose them. The Father chose them.

Try again.

[Eagles' Wings]

When you are a myopic one-trick pony that says the same thing over and over and over you tend to make mistakes.

First, no one "who for" but "what for". Second, you are wrong. He saves who his Father has chosen. Christ is the savior. God is the deliverer.



Indeed, they belong to Christ, but Christ did not choose them. The Father chose them.

Try again.

The 17th chapter of the Gospel, according to John, is one of my favorites. How do you interpret verse 21 in that chapter? I seem to recall that you do not believe Jesus Christ is God.

[Dianne]

IMO, you should think about it and pray on it for a while. Attend a church and observe. Ask questions. Perhaps read literature the pastor suggests to you. As a catechumen, I was required to attend liturgies for 6 months or so IIRC before my chrismation. Most denominations will baptize you as soon as you want, though. Try putting yourself through your own "catechumen" stage-dedicate a certain amount of time to attending services and maybe bible studies if you're so inclined. If you're becoming protestant or non-denominational, this process can be as long or short as you want. God bless you, and peace to you on your path! ~hugs~

I don't even know what catechumen is .. I'll have to read up on it. And than you for the blessings heavenlyboy. You've always been one of my favorite posters.

[RJB]

I don't even know what catechumen is .. I'll have to read up on it. And than you for the blessings heavenlyboy. You've always been one of my favorite posters.

A catechumen is basically a Christian in study before water baptism. The desire for Baptism is a form of Baptism in the Orthodox Church. God hears you and knows your heart. Those worries you have, give them to Him and trust in Him.

I agree with HB. Pray pray and pray. I was a full atheist/agnostic for 15 years. Once I started praying it was still a year or so before I had that moment.

Visit different Churches, talk with other Christians, read the bible, pray, but most importantly, have faith. God does hear prayers and will lead you in surprising ways. God Bless

[Sola_Fide]

When you are a myopic one-trick pony that says the same thing over and over and over you tend to make mistakes.

First, no one "who for" but "what for". Second, you are wrong. He saves who his Father has chosen. Christ is the savior. God is the deliverer.



Indeed, they belong to Christ, but Christ did not choose them. The Father chose them.

Try again.

Well, if you want to divide up the Trinity like that, fine. If you want to say the Father chooses, I don't have a problem with that. Although consider this verse:

Jesus is involved in choosing:

Luke 10:22

"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

The Spirit is involved in choosing:

John 3:7-8

Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

But if you say that Father chooses, fine, I agree with that. The Bible is clear: GOD chooses His elect, not the other way around.

[wizardwatson]

The 17th chapter of the Gospel, according to John, is one of my favorites. How do you interpret verse 21 in that chapter? I seem to recall that you do not believe Jesus Christ is God.

In the contemporary sense he is definitely not God. God is a proper name that belongs to the Father. They are two separate beings obviously as shown throughout the Bible, one telling instance in Psalm 110:1 that I pointed out in post #2.

Now Colossians 2:9 says "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." This means that all the things which God rightfully could keep for Himself, he has given to the Son. His power, his authority, the title of "King", etc. (whereas we see in Isaiah 9:6 that God only keeps the title of "prince" for himself, another mystery few understand).

So you ask about John 17:21

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

If it were true that Jesus was God based on saying "I and the Father are one." then it must also mean based on this verse that Jesus is you and you are also God, and that instead of a "trinity" that God is some kind of "to the billions" polynomial, right?

No, Christ is speaking here of spiritual things, and it's hard to take that verse out from the ones that surround it. I imagine even in the millenial kingdom people will ponder over John 17 in wonderment. Christ speaks of a loving unity among believers and a deep love that God has for all His people.

Notice the preceding verse though. Christ says, "Neither I pray for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word." He is praying not only for the body of believers but for the unbelievers who will eventually believe based on believers preaching the gospel. That is the verse preceding 21.

Verse 26 kind of hints at what God hates. The reason Christ is singled out is because he is the mediator for what God loves and does not love. He loves us "through" Christ. Christ is the model and the measuring rod.

Anyway, you picked a hell of a verse to ask me about! So many things weave through John 17. I could blabber all day.

[Sola_Fide]

In the contemporary sense he is definitely not God. God is a proper name that belongs to the Father. They are two separate beings obviously as shown throughout the Bible, one telling instance in Psalm 110:1 that I pointed out in post #2.

Now Colossians 2:9 says "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." This means that all the things which God rightfully could keep for Himself, he has given to the Son. His power, his authority, the title of "King", etc. (whereas we see in Isaiah 9:6 that God only keeps the title of "prince" for himself, another mystery few understand).

So you ask about John 17:21



If it were true that Jesus was God based on saying "I and the Father are one." then it must also mean based on this verse that Jesus is you and you are also God, and that instead of a "trinity" that God is some kind of "to the billions" polynomial, right?

No, Christ is speaking here of spiritual things, and it's hard to take that verse out from the ones that surround it. I imagine even in the millenial kingdom people will ponder over John 17 in wonderment. Christ speaks of a loving unity among believers and a deep love that God has for all His people.

Notice the preceding verse though. Christ says, "Neither I pray for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word." He is praying not only for the body of believers but for the unbelievers who will eventually believe based on believers preaching the gospel. That is the verse preceding 21.

Verse 26 kind of hints at what God hates. The reason Christ is singled out is because he is the mediator for what God loves and does not love. He loves us "through" Christ. Christ is the model and the measuring rod.

Anyway, you picked a hell of a verse to ask me about! So many things weave through John 17. I could blabber all day.

If Jesus is a "separate being" than the Father, then why is Jesus referred to as Yahweh in the book of Hebrews?

[wizardwatson]

Well, if you want to divide up the Trinity like that, fine. If you want to say the Father chooses, I don't have a problem with that. Although consider this verse:
Jesus is involved in choosing:
The Spirit is involved in choosing:
But if you say that Father chooses, fine, I agree with that. The Bible is clear: GOD chooses His elect, not the other way around.

To the extent that the trinity obscures these scriptural divisions it is a false doctrine. I've said that for some time.

The fact that the Son is who reveals the Father isn't just "some random fact" it is extremely important and is tied to other mysteries. The fact that the Father chooses who belongs to Christ is also very important. The fact that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin is very important.

Where the trinity is false is precisely this "mirage" effect that people get lazy and say they are "one" in such ways that they start interchanging scripture as the author of the quoted OP has done.

I don't say you are wrong where you aren't wrong, Sola. And because you choose to speak of Christ openly I don't pull punches where I think you are wrong. I also don't say you aren't a Christian. I simply think you are stuck on thinking there is a great mystery to be learned about God's sovereignty concerning the elect. I highly encourage you to read The Fire of God's Anger. It's not a long book. It's free online. It's a rare find likely no one you know has ever read. It will go much further in depth into the subject of the "elect" than likely anything you've ever read and will make hell "more real", in my opinion. My theory as to why your mind always goes to this subject no matter what's being discussed is because you are still in doubt in this area.

Read it, friend. You saw me rail against Paul on this forum for quite a while along with Ronin. That book changed my view of Paul. It redeemed him for me. You've read me for a while. Do you think that shift was a small thing? I think it could change your view of the elect vs. the damned. It will affirm your faith, not shake it. There is a truth in the middle between those who deny Paul on account of Calvinism (where I was) and those who misunderstand Paul on account of Calvinism (where you are). If this book contains such a truth don't you think it's worth a few of the hours you'd just spend on here anyway?

[Sola_Fide]

To the extent that the trinity obscures these scriptural divisions it is a false doctrine. I've said that for some time.

The fact that the Son is who reveals the Father isn't just "some random fact" it is extremely important and is tied to other mysteries. The fact that the Father chooses who belongs to Christ is also very important. The fact that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin is very important.

Where the trinity is false is precisely this "mirage" effect that people get lazy and say they are "one" in such ways that they start interchanging scripture as the author of the quoted OP has done.

I don't say you are wrong where you aren't wrong, Sola. And because you choose to speak of Christ openly I don't pull punches where I think you are wrong. I also don't say you aren't a Christian. I simply think you are stuck on thinking there is a great mystery to be learned about God's sovereignty concerning the elect. I highly encourage you to read The Fire of God's Anger. It's not a long book. It's free online. It's a rare find likely no one you know has ever read. It will go much further in depth into the subject of the "elect" than likely anything you've ever read and will make hell "more real", in my opinion. My theory as to why your mind always goes to this subject no matter what's being discussed is because you are still in doubt in this area.

Read it, friend. You saw me rail against Paul on this forum for quite a while along with Ronin. That book changed my view of Paul. It redeemed him for me. You've read me for a while. Do you think that shift was a small thing? I think it could change your view of the elect vs. the damned. It will affirm your faith, not shake it. There is a truth in the middle between those who deny Paul on account of Calvinism (where I was) and those who misunderstand Paul on account of Calvinism (where you are). If this book contains such a truth don't you think it's worth a few of the hours you'd just spend on here anyway?

I can't even keep up with all of the things you mention in this post. You go from annihilationism, to denying Paul, to saying the Trinity is false, to talking about Calvinism and the elect, to other things.

Before we go into anything else, let's stick with one topic at a time. You posted this verse:

John 17:9-10

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Does God choose who will be saved?

[Dianne]

A catechumen is basically a Christian in study before water baptism. The desire for Baptism is a form of Baptism in the Orthodox Church. God hears you and knows your heart. Those worries you have, give them to Him and trust in Him.

I agree with HB. Pray pray and pray. I was a full atheist/agnostic for 15 years. Once I started praying it was still a year or so before I had that moment.

Visit different Churches, talk with other Christians, read the bible, pray, but most importantly, have faith. God does hear prayers and will lead you in surprising ways. God Bless

Your post meant a lot to me. My mother was Jewish, yet claimed to be an athiest. My father was a southern baptist.. You can imagine how well that went. My father wanted to take me to church as a child, but she wouldn't let him take me. So, although I've had Christ in my life since birth (from my own heart), and prayed to him every night... I have no religious education, never baptized, etc.

I agree that faith is more important than anything. I loved your post, thank you.

[wizardwatson]

I really appreciate this thread. I was never deeply religious; although I did pray everyday since a child. When BuddyRey passed, I began watching youtube videos of Pastor Rick Warren. I also attend Sunday church services at the little church where BuddyRey is buried. Although I don't go in person, I listen to the broadcast live.

I want to be certain that when I pass, I'll join BuddyRey in heaven. But it's all new to me. I've given my life to Christ and committed myself to him in many of the ways Ronin's post indicates. I have never been baptized, which concerns me. Is that something I should do right away?

I guess what I'm asking is, how exactly does one be born again?

I'm currently promoting Rabbi Jonathan Cahn's ministry above other people's. His is an end time ministry but it's also a real "revival" ministry in my opinion. Very strong spirit he has and his videos are all over the place, and the "red pill" link in my signature is practically devoted to him.

Being "born again" I think is an overused term. I believe it means something very specific, but it seems these days it's used interchangeably with increase in signs of faith.

It's great that you "worry" about being baptised as RJB pointed out. I used to worry as well. The point when I "came to Christ", which I guess many people call "being saved" seemed to happen in a couple stages and happened a few years ago. But even before this for probably almost a decade I studied scripture and "believed" but the faith didn't really completely possess me until a couple years ago. But I actually didn't get water baptized until April of this year, believe it or not. I honestly didn't feel it necessary. Then I felt commanded. Then I didn't care what church did it I wanted to do it so bad.

Anyway, both HB and RJB posts are great. Everybody has their own path and don't worry so much about "the order" of things as much as the spirit in which you do them. You seem to be doing ok in that department.

[Dianne]

I'm currently promoting Rabbi Jonathan Cahn's ministry above other people's. His is an end time ministry but it's also a real "revival" ministry in my opinion. Very strong spirit he has and his videos are all over the place, and the "red pill" link in my signature is practically devoted to him.

Being "born again" I think is an overused term. I believe it means something very specific, but it seems these days it's used interchangeably with increase in signs of faith.

It's great that you "worry" about being baptised as RJB pointed out. I used to worry as well. The point when I "came to Christ", which I guess many people call "being saved" seemed to happen in a couple stages and happened a few years ago. But even before this for probably almost a decade I studied scripture and "believed" but the faith didn't really completely possess me until a couple years ago. But I actually didn't get water baptized until April of this year, believe it or not. I honestly didn't feel it necessary. Then I felt commanded. Then I didn't care what church did it I wanted to do it so bad.

Anyway, both HB and RJB posts are great. Everybody has their own path and don't worry so much about "the order" of things as much as the spirit in which you do them. You seem to be doing ok in that department.

I saw you post that on another thread, and I did watch the video. I will youtube and watch more of his stuff. I was confused with the Rabbi, because the way my mother taught me was that Jews believe Jesus was a profit and not the son of God. Yet Rabbi Cahn seemed to preach as most gentile ministers do. I liked what he had to say, and I will revisit.

In your view, is born again meaning when you came to Christ spiritually? It's not an official ceremony with a member of the clergy; yet your personal relationship with God? If that's the case, I am born again.

[Eagles' Wings]

I saw you post that on another thread, and I did watch the video. I will youtube and watch more of his stuff. I was confused with the Rabbi, because the way my mother taught me was that Jews believe Jesus was a profit and not the son of God. Yet Rabbi Cahn seemed to preach as most gentile ministers do. I liked what he had to say, and I will revisit.

In your view, is born again meaning when you came to Christ spiritually? It's not an official ceremony with a member of the clergy; yet your personal relationship with God? If that's the case, I am born again.

Diane, God has already numbered the hairs on your head and has numbered and ordered your days. Your only obligation is one of discovery. Believe in God, turn away from evil ways and evil men, to avoid death and condemnation. Live in expectation of discovering what He has planned.

The sad news is that none of us can believe or repent, without first being changed in heart, mind, and will. The Good News is that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. So, we must believe IN HIM and trust IN HIM for eternal life, and escape from condemnation.

There is no set formula for when and how the Holy Spirit raises and regenerates sinners to life.

These very words were spoken and written to me, Diane, and every Christian has a different testimony, but the proof of being born again, is manifesting the fruits of the Holy Spirit, as listed in Galatians 5:22-25. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, not a human work.

[Dianne]

Also, does anyone have a resource for me to understand why life is cut short for beautiful people in spirit, heart and mind, yet life goes on for sickos who murder, rape and pillage? That is the one issue that held me back from God. Yet, I know there is a plan and I will never know what it is.. But losing someone so brilliant, sweet and pure as you watch the most despicable, evil people live on doesn't make sense.

[Eagles' Wings]

In the contemporary sense he is definitely not God.

I did not realize the depth of your distinction and belief that Christ is not the second person of the Holy Trinity, True God and True Man. The relationship of the Father, Son and Spirit is so strong and obvious throughout Scripture. Perhaps in time your belief with change, as it did with how you now view Paul. As I told Diane, He knows all of your days and all of your ways. Praise be to God!

[Dianne]

Diane, God has already numbered the hairs on your head and has numbered and ordered your days. Your only obligation is one of discovery. Believe in God, turn away from evil ways and evil men, to avoid death and condemnation. Live in expectation of discovering what He has planned.

The sad news is that none of us can believe or repent, without first being changed in heart, mind, and will. The Good News is that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. So, we must believe IN HIM and trust IN HIM for eternal life, and escape from condemnation.

There is no set formula for when and how the Holy Spirit raises and regenerates sinners to life.

These very words were spoken and written to me, Diane, and every Christian has a different testimony, but the proof of being born again, is manifesting the fruits of the Holy Spirit, as listed in Galatians 5:22-25. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, not a human work.

I am changed in heart, mind and will. Actually, I've always been a good person with a strong heart and sympathy for people and animals ... I do believe in Jesus, I do trust him (although he let me down on BuddyRey; I don't know why, never will because I prayed every hour for his survival). I have no doubt BuddyRey is in heaven, so if it means anything to proclaim here: I am born again. I have accepted Christ in my life as my Lord and Savior. I believe Christ died for my sins and that he is the son of God.

This is very emotional for me right now, as it is every day. I love Christ, but at the same time I resent him for taking my child. Right now, it's a love/hate relationship. But I'm working through the fact, there is a bigger plan and God needs good people to do good things. I have to believe that.

[RJB]

Also, does anyone have a resource for me to understand why life is cut short for beautiful people in spirit, heart and mind, yet life goes on for sickos who murder, rape and pillage? That is the one issue that held me back from God. Yet, I know there is a plan and I will never know what it is.. But losing someone so brilliant, sweet and pure as you watch the most despicable, evil people live on doesn't make sense.

I'm afraid this will come out sounding too stoic. I don't mean it that way. I never met BuddyRey in person, but I always liked him and miss his presence on this forum. I wish you peace.

I've come to truly love this life that I've been given, but I do not fear my death. I really don't. I came very close to buying it 2 years ago and it was one of the calmest, clearest, most peaceful moments of my life.

Every person of every faith or lack of faith has pondered these questions and had trouble explaining in human terms. I can't give you relief, only God can.

ETA I'll research. There some things I've read over the years that have help, tho.

[Sola_Fide]

Also, does anyone have a resource for me to understand why life is cut short for beautiful people in spirit, heart and mind,

Because no one is innocent, beautiful, or good. Everyone is born in sin, and enemies of God. And God is angry at us because of this.

yet life goes on for sickos who murder, rape and pillage?

Because God is judging them and others for their sin. He judges men for their sins with violence from other men.

That is the one issue that held me back from God. Yet, I know there is a plan and I will never know what it is..

It held you back because you ddidn't know how ugly our sin is and how a holy God is.

losing someone so brilliant, sweet and pure as you watch the most despicable, evil people live on doesn't make sense.

Everyone is evil.

[Eagles' Wings]

Also, does anyone have a resource for me to understand why life is cut short for beautiful people in spirit, heart and mind, yet life goes on for sickos who murder, rape and pillage? That is the one issue that held me back from God. Yet, I know there is a plan and I will never know what it is.. But losing someone so brilliant, sweet and pure as you watch the most despicable, evil people live on doesn't make sense.

I think of someone like, Corrie Ten Boom and the thousands of people martyred for Christ. Their stories can be found at Voices of the Martyrs. Many suffered greatly at the hands of wickedness and evil, and yet their hope stayed in Christ. For believers, to die is gain.

When our loved ones die of disease, accidents or at the hands of evil people, we still must cling to our Sovereign God, to believe that His holy will is for their/our good. My father suffered for over twenty years with MS and Ticdouloureux, pain worse than child birth. Through his tears and frustration, God cared for him, and many people were brought to the Lord through his testimony of faith. I was one them.

Christians must simply pray, "Father, fill us with the knowledge of Jesus Christ, in these painful times when we do not understand Your ways".

[wizardwatson]

I saw you post that on another thread, and I did watch the video. I will youtube and watch more of his stuff. I was confused with the Rabbi, because the way my mother taught me was that Jews believe Jesus was a profit and not the son of God. Yet Rabbi Cahn seemed to preach as most gentile ministers do. I liked what he had to say, and I will revisit.

The Rabbi is what's known as a "Messianic Jew". There are some Jews who continued to practice Judaism but ALSO believed that Christ was messiah, the Son of God. Those are called "Messianic Jews" which is what Jonathan is. Jews who deny he is the Son of God or consider him a prophet or some teacher or worse are considered "apostate jews". So your mother was talking about the latter. Practicing Jews that believe Jesus was Son of God are a small sect.

So yeah, he sounds just like an evangelical minister, and yet he knows all the Jewish meanings behind the scripture which makes his ministry all the more rich in knowledge and truth in my opinion. I've learned so many things watching his videos. I highly encourage watching all the Cahn videos on that thread.

Here's his youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoo...7Ky082TkQ7KoaA

"The Mystery of the Trees" is the current video featured and it's amazing. But really all his videos are good.

In your view, is born again meaning when you came to Christ spiritually? It's not an official ceremony with a member of the clergy; yet your personal relationship with God? If that's the case, I am born again.

I have a different opinion than most people about being "born again". Even than Ron Paul:



My view of "born again" is that Christ is talking about what the Buddhists refer to as "enlightenment". But I believe people use the term "born again" now to refer to the "fruits of faith" so to speak. So when you are hinting that you "feel" born again, it makes sense, because you intuitively understand that's how other Christians are using the term. I would simply say that you have faith. That's no small thing!

Let me be clear. According to my standards, although I believe in Christ, although I have had multiple experiences where I believe the Lord brought me to repentance, although I've been baptized with water, I do not claim to be born again. The reason is because I do not feel completely free from the bondage of sin. There are still days where I have shadows of doubt and temptation. I'm still at risk. I believe being born again is a powerful spiritual transformation that completely frees one from sin and lets one see the Kingdom of God.

So to me this is as rare as being a Zen Master. I believe people are in heaven who have not been born again, that's how rare I think it is. And yet the great story is that we are all destined for this because Christ commands it. The fact that Christ says you MUST is a powerful command. The fact that He commands you to "seek ye first the Kingdom of God" means he wants this to always be the overriding goal. Not to live in peace, not to see paradise, but to be completely reborn in the world of the Spirit.

So to me the fact that people have watered this down is a great tragedy. And worse, people have tried to make it some formula, as if a long spiritual journey towards the Kingdom of God and absolute freedom was a combination of words. Or that you're "doomed to hell" if you aren't "born again". All these are false teachings. To be saved only requires repentance and believing in Christ. And this is a daily activity. Not some "one time" proclamation.

So no, to me being "born again" isn't when I came to Christ spiritually (I would say he came and possessed me, not the other way around) as I don't even believe I've been born again yet. I would say that when you spiritually recognize that your faith is manifested, it's simply being "saved". Some Christians call this "saving faith". A lot of people desire to believe, are righteous, and want to be good, but when it manifests in you, and you can give testimony to that fact, it's clear to you. Doesn't mean you aren't still subject to sin and temptation and error even in doctrine!!! Just means you have some measure of real faith.