Had reason to ponder the above and wanted to hear more.
From : http://www.gotquestions.org/graven-image.html
So what's a graven image ?As with any kind of worship, the object of adoration inevitably controls us.
[T]he enshrinement of constitutional rights necessarily takes certain policy choices off the table. (Heller, 554 U.S., at ___, 128 S.Ct., at 2822.)
How long before "going liberal" replaces "going postal"?
http://www.gotquestions.org/graven-image.html
Question: "What is a graven image?"
Answer: The phrase “graven image” comes from the King James Version and is first found in Exodus 20:4 in the second of the Ten Commandments. The Hebrew word translated “graven image” means literally “an idol.” A graven image is an image carved out of stone, wood, or metal. It could be a statue of a person or animal, or a relief carving in a wall or pole. It is differentiated from a molten image, which is melted metal poured into a cast. Abstract Asherah poles, carved wooden Ba’als covered in gold leaf, and etchings of gods accompanying Egyptian hieroglyphics are all graven images.
The progression of idolatry in a pagan religion generally starts with the acknowledgement of a power that controls natural forces. The presence of the force is then thought to indwell an object, like a stone, or a place, like a mountain. The next step is altering a naturally occurring object, like a standing stone, a deliberately planted tree, or a carved Asherah pole and asking the force to indwell it. When the idolatrous culture has had time to contemplate the personality of the god, they then make corresponding physical images—a statue that looks like a woman or a relief carving that looks like an animal. Graven images can be either of the last two steps.
The spiritual progression is similar. People start with wanting something (Ephesians 5:5; Colossians 3:5), often children or prosperity or good crops. They observe the circumstances (which some acknowledge are God-ordained, and others think are independent) that lead to these things and begin to ascribe to the causal forces human characteristics—thus creating gods. Places are set aside to commune with these false gods. For convenience sake, smaller items, thought to hold the power or the communication line of the gods, are brought into homes. Before long, the people are ensnared by the compulsion to give homage to a thing of their own definition instead of to the God of the universe.
The second commandment, recorded in Exodus 20:4–5, reads, “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them.” Likely, this refers back to the first commandment, “You shall have no other gods before Me,” and specifically forbids the creation of idols. But it is equally dangerous to create an image of God Himself. God has given us reminders enough of His power and glory (Romans 1:20) without man attempting to use created things to represent the Creator.
Functionally, there is no difference between a “graven” image (Deuteronomy 4:16) and a “molten” image (Exodus 34:17). Both are man’s attempt to define and confine the power of God who works over creation. Both are the result of greed and covetousness, along with the fear that God does not have the worshipers’ best interests at heart. Graven images, whether an idol, a crystal, or a charm, are attempts to limit the power of God and reduce it to a small package that we can control. As with any kind of worship, the object of adoration inevitably controls us.
[edit]
I didn't click your link before googling......
Anything you idolize/worship more than God.
The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present. ~ Rudolf Steiner
Yeah , there is one .Originally Posted by Anti Federalist
Last edited by Terry1; 08-03-2015 at 07:53 AM.
Let's not forget what's on the Capitol Rotunda.Here are a few commonly venerated graven images:
Or the Washington phallic symbol.
Indeed! I imagine we could name dozens of examples if we comb DC and all the other "historic" spots/tourist traps. I've seen videos of people nearly falling to their knees at the Jefferson Memorial.
or the many cathedrals and shrines, of various religions.Indeed! I imagine we could name dozens of examples if we comb DC and all the other "historic" spots/tourist traps. I've seen videos of people nearly falling to their knees at the Jefferson Memorial.
worshiping the creature more than the Creator.
and any feeble attempt at depicting the Almighty God by any temporal medium would fall so short of His Glory that it would be only insulting at best.
He said don't do it.
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
Agreed. The problem with the realism of Western religious art is that its "sensuality" (as art philosophers call it) takes away from the message. This is why Eastern Christians use flat perspective, and are said to be "written" instead of painted-the focus is on God in these pieces. They are usually beautiful in their own right, but that is beside the point.
What do you think of literary depiction, such as the Bible and various other texts classical and contemporary which discuss and describe Him (the Sola Scripturists and Eastern/Western Catholic Churches generally agree scripture is a sort of depiction of Him)?
He said don't do it.I would leave it there and contemplate it.
rather than those "keepers of the Law" who will try to find loopholes.
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
Never said anything about loopholes.I would leave it there and contemplate it.
rather than those "keepers of the Law" who will try to find loopholes.But you're right, I could have just as easily stopped there. As you know, I can be verbose and rant-y.
I think that God already knew when mankind started building $#@!, they weren't going to react to their "art work" properly and keep that in Gods proper perspective. This began before the church of four walls started at the erecting of the Tower of Babel. Because mankind leans more towards their carnal/physical side than their spiritual--so they have this propensity to try and use things of creation like buildings, towers, portraits, statues, that they've carved or built with their own hands to access and reach God rather than the one true mediator Himself who was/is the only one able to intercede on behalf of mankind and nothing or no one else.
This is why God never wanted mankind to start creating images of *things and people*. He knew well before mankind started doing this $#@! that they'd start worshiping their own handiwork instead of the Spirit of the Lord.
Exodus 20:
25And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
Now under the New Covenant--it's not a sin to own or appreciate art work--the sin is in using them improperly spiritually to access God or use them to reach God in any way. God said--no man comes to the Father except through my Son Jesus Christ. God didn't say this because He just wanted to exercise His supreme authority---He told us this because it guards us against the Devil who uses these *things* to fool and deceive mankind and to distract mankind away from the Spirit of the Lord. God gave us good advice, but what does mankind choose to do then---mankind starts praying to a bowing down to this crap.
The devil will use the blindness and stupidity of mankind to destroy many souls as he's already done, but not without mankind's willingness to go right along with it as they ignore what God warned them of.
Last edited by Terry1; 08-04-2015 at 07:49 AM.
More obvious pictures of people worshipping stones and the dead
More obvious pictures of people worshipping stones and the dead
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
Do you think that visiting a gravesite is the same thing as praying to the departed the same way you'd pray to the Lord and ask for help? This is a real stretch of the imagination there RJB. I do understand why you want to justify the practice though.More obvious pictures of people worshipping stones and the dead
Do you really think as much as I once wanted to become a member of the EOC church that I wouldn't stop and take a look at what I was going to be subscribing to? I really attempted to reconcile this--me and my husband both visited the priests and had long conversations about this very thing and more. We studied and read the scriptures used in attempts to justify this looking for any indication that anywhere in scripture Gods word upheld this only to find nothing--absolutely nothing to support it. What we did find were scriptures that absolutely forbid it though.
Now--I'm not here to bash or ridicule what you believe and practice, I'm here because of the seriousness of this matter in hope that some might see the truth in the word of God. But it seems that people are more concerned about offending others tender little sensibilities than they are the truth here. I want you to see what I see, but I can't make that happen because you have to actually want that to happen and that--I can not do.
What's the point of subscribing oneself to a belief that's supposed to uphold and support the word of God if you can't find anything in the word of God that actually supports that belief, tradition or practice? What a waste of precious time playing such a dangerous game.
Last edited by Terry1; 08-04-2015 at 09:17 PM.
Really--as if you had a clue at all and everyone with a functioning brain knows this about you already. Not too long ago you were accusing EOC members of acting superior to you and bowing down to demons--and this was before you came out of the Wiccan closet as their supporter claiming it wasn't witchcraft at all, only harmless persecuted healers.
Last edited by Terry1; 08-04-2015 at 09:05 PM.
Why do you worship the dead and rocks Terry?
People who latch on to numerous faith paths for but a time before moving to another, should refrain from passing judgements upon others who are not on the same leg of the journey. Do unto others...Job 5:2 Resentment kills a fool,
and envy slays the simple.
Repeating a lie does not make it fact. Many people were unjustly accused of witchcraft because of the darkness of the hearts of their accusers. It is historical fact that such occurred and still occurs to this day, by self promoting "Christians".
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
I never understood this feud as I didn't see her post it. However, things get said passion all the time, but people move on. You can't for some reason.
You've PMed me in the past accusing me of backstabbing when I told you to let it go. That's one of the reasons why I quit posting as much because I felt like a hypocrit. In the past I questioned why some Calvinists did not call out some of the more militant ones when they went off the deep end, but I sat back and kept quiet when you went off on good people like jmdrake, moostraks, apctulsa etc. I regret that.
I don't mind someone insulting me or my faith in the heat of a passionate debate. Maybe in the moment, but I don't hold it against people later. My respect for two of the more vocal Calvinists has grown. In the past we've had some pretty intense arguments here and then I'll receive a + rep in another section of the forum from them. Let go of this crap. That hot coal in your belly will eventually eat you alive.
What does annoy the hell out of me though is strawmen about my beliefs. I've clearly stated in the past that I don't see anyone as my mediator to the Father other than Jesus. I don't worship saints or pictures. Neither does TER nor HB nor any other Orthodox. If you've bowed your head in emotion before a tombstone, kissed a picture of your child, talked to a picture of a dead person, you are as guilty of breaking the 2nd Commandment as any Orthodox.
The Church, the Body of Christ, the people who partake in His Divinity are not canceled by time, death, etc.. We are surrounded by that cloud of witnesses. In the Divine Liturgy, The Church in Heaven and on Earth unite in one worship of the Trinity. We are all brothers and sisters in the family of God, holding to the true faith. As Orthodox Christians show our love for each other with hugs , kisses, etc. so we show it to those who are still with us in prayer and worship in heaven.
As I've also said, if you believe any of that was worship to anyone other than the Trinity, it is for the best that you left the Orthodox Church. I hold no grudge against you and wish you the best on your path, but don't continuously strawman me and my Church.
Last edited by RJB; 08-05-2015 at 07:50 AM.
Who's building that strawman now RJB? Have I ever once accused you or any other member here personally? No--I haven't, but what's being addressed in here lately is the support of this practice and tradition that both the Catholics and the EOC perform--IN RITUAL and hold "equal to the word of God".
You can't even address the message here without using strawman tactics to support your lame argument that you've made *personal* and misrepresented my meaning and intentions totally. Hey--if the shoe fits--as the old sayin goes, but don't sit there and pound out a lie about what I've said or that I've accused any person of anything here. That's your strawman dude---not mine, you own it.
I posted prayers to the saints from an EOC site to make my point and reference, because I've been accused now by both you and TER of some underhanded doings, when in all truth--I'm actually concerned about those who believe this is something that's biblical and supported by God Himself---when it's clearly not. I understand your attacks because everyone's belief is personal, but then what kind of witness for the Lord would I be if I just sat here knowing this was wrong while others are promoting it as if it's something God condones.
In fact--HB has not attacked me, because I believe he understands what my intentions are. I have considered HB and TER both my brothers in the Lord and still do and you as well and is the only reason I'm personally concerned about support of this belief. At least I gave this belief the total benefit of the doubt before I made my final judgment against it. We spoke with the priests--visited the church--read the doctrine, studied it for months on end and only then came to this decision. This isn't something I'm just sitting here spouting off about because I didn't do the math, homework and spiritual due diligence here--at least if nothing else you should respect me for that--but obviously--you don't.
Last edited by Terry1; 08-05-2015 at 08:24 AM.
Your ridiculous arguments mean nothing because you'll defend or flame anyone who believes anything as long as it suits however you feel about them that day because you believe in nothing and have made that clear time and time again in here. lol You care nothing for anyone's soul in here--everything you say and do is about revenge. Someone done you wrong before, so you'll join the argument just to get a stab or two in the back. That's who you are and total sum of what you are and it's a well known fact to everyone but you.
People who latch on to numerous faith paths for but a time before moving to another, should refrain from passing judgements upon others who are not on the same leg of the journey. Do unto others...
Repeating a lie does not make it fact. Many people were unjustly accused of witchcraft because of the darkness of the hearts of their accusers. It is historical fact that such occurred and still occurs to this day, by self promoting "Christians".
I think the most honest statement you made in here is when you admitted to being a witch and your behavior certainly indicates such as well.
Last edited by Terry1; 08-05-2015 at 08:16 AM.
So why do you worship tombstones and worship the dead, Terry?
If you keep this up RJB, I'll have about as much respect for you as I do moos. Go back and read what I wrote---I edited and added to it.
You forget--I studied this doctrine in hopes to join this church. I've spent hours in long discussion with the priests and church elders on this very subject. I've attended the services and witnessed what goes on in this same *worship services to the departed saints*. There's nothing you can say here that supports your strawman argument against me. Who's the liar here?
Last edited by Terry1; 08-05-2015 at 08:30 AM.
You ignored what I wrote explaining how I see the Divine Liturgy. Why should I bother to read your diatribe? I'll play your game as you play it. Not how you want me to play it.
Because I already addressed the Divine Liturgy, I will go back to your attack on Sacred Tradition. This does not contradict Scripture. You know that. You've argued for that in the past. If you look at the ancient Christian communities that have survived since antiquity they share a very common worship that they've held onto that is both scriptural and traditional for the past 2000 years. India, Ethiopia, Ireland, Russia, Syria... This has survived separation of distances, languages, politics and wars. It has survived attacks from the Pharisees, Roman oppression, genocide from Islam. The Bolsheviks murdered between 8,000,000 to 60,000,000 Orthodox Christians in an attempt to wipe us out and failed miserably.
This attention to the word of God as handed down (despite the powers of earth that be) is what keeps Orthodoxy, orthodox for 2000 years. Others can't claim that. Every major denomination has changed a lot in the last 50 years (as yours has in the last few weeks and will continue.)
As for Moostraks, I have nothing against her. Neither should you.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Connect With Us