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Thread: STUDY: Regular People Are Totally Useless When Trying to Use Handguns In Self-Defense

  1. #1

    STUDY: Regular People Are Totally Useless When Trying to Use Handguns In Self-Defense


    STUDY: Regular People Are Totally Useless When Trying to Use Handguns In Self-Defense

    Sorry wannabe Jack Bauers, turns out you suck at saving the day.

    By Adam Johnson / AlterNet July 28, 2015


    You've heard the mantra a million times: "The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." The only problem, it turns out, is that being a "good guy" isn't good enough.


    A new study by researchers at Mount St. Mary's University shows that proper training and the ability to know how and when to apply lethal force is essential to not only "stopping a bad guy" but not killing yourself and other innocent bystanders. As Christopher Ingraham of The Washington Post reports:


    [Researchers] recruited 77 volunteers with varying levels of firearm experience and training, and had each of them participate in simulations of three different scenarios using the firearms training simulator at the Prince George's County Police Department in Maryland...


    They found that, perhaps unsurprisingly, people without firearms training performed poorly in the scenarios. They didn't take cover. They didn't attempt to issue commands to their assailants. Their trigger fingers were either too itchy -- they shot innocent bystanders or unarmed people, or not itchy enough -- they didn't shoot armed assailants until they were already being shot at.


    The study, it should be noted, was funded by a gun reform advocacy group National Gun Victims Action Council, and the sample size of 77 is rather small but the findings are significant and confirm what even the NRA says -- more training goes a long way in preventing accidents in the event of emergencies. The researchers released some interesting video showing the difference between how trained professionals respond to crises and how the average Joe does.


    The National Gun Victims Action Council considers itself a moderate gun control group advocating for "sane gun control". They believe the first step to more sane control is requiring training for handgun ownership just as we currently do for the operation of cars and other heavy machinery.


    The NRA, for its part, categorically opposes such measures.


    h/t Washington Post


    http://www.alternet.org/study-regula...s-self-defense



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  3. #2
    Use a 12 guage shotgun.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Use a 12 guage shotgun.
    sir, yes sir!


    ...rather have an aa-12... i guess only russian youtubers can have those...
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    why I should worship the state (who apparently is the only party that can possess guns without question).
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  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by jkr View Post
    sir, yes sir!


    ...rather have an aa-12... i guess only russian youtubers can have those...
    That ought to do it.

  6. #5
    They found that, perhaps unsurprisingly, people without firearms training performed poorly in the scenarios. They didn't take cover. They didn't attempt to issue commands to their assailants. Their trigger fingers were either too itchy -- they shot innocent bystanders or unarmed people, or not itchy enough -- they didn't shoot armed assailants until they were already being shot at.

    What a total Bull Crap study!! Let's look at how they "evaluated" these "good guy self defense" shooters:


    They didn't take cover.
    So what? If someone was shooting at my friends or loved ones, my very first thought is going to be all about putting a round right between the bastard's eyes, even if I have to take a tertiary hit to do it.


    They didn't attempt to issue commands to their assailants.
    Are you effing KIDDING me??? I'm a "good guy with a gun" - NOT a cop. Why would I waste my energy, breath and concentration by barking useless commands at someone who is very likely insane anyway? The goal in this case - the ONLY goal - is to kill the crazy dude before he kills my family, friends, or myself.


    Their trigger fingers were either too itchy -- they shot innocent bystanders or unarmed people
    Okay, I'll give 'em this one. Take the half second necessary to make sure you're aiming at the bad guy, folks.

    or not itchy enough -- they didn't shoot armed assailants until they were already being shot at.
    Again, are you effing KIDDING me? The way prosecutors are these days, it's almost mandatory to let the bad guy pop off a round or two before you plug him. Otherwise, it's the "good guy" who ends up going to jail. That's not to say that I would necessarily wait, but I can sure understand why most people would hesitate before pulling the trigger. And - hey, gun grabbers, weren't ya just carping about some people shooting TOO soon???

    Jeez.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by KCIndy View Post
    What a total Bull Crap study!!
    Kops evaluating sane people on their abilities.......

    Seems like maybe the roles should be reversed..

  8. #7
    What do they expect when you're measuring the responses of people who probably never handled a firearm in their lives and don't have five minutes worth of training? A textbook approach?

    Clearly this was designed and intended to produce a particular result for political ends. Take your volunteers from rural South Carolina instead of urban Maryland and your results will be massively different.

  9. #8
    They don't seem to be taking into consideration that when law-abiding populations are better armed, these types of incidents occur less frequently to begin with.
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  11. #9
    This is why I want to start doing IDPA. Well, and it looks fun as hell.


  12. #10
    The only thing to really worry about measuring is collateral damage and deaths of nearby innocents.

    It also depends on the scenario they expect a noobie to be in. I'm thinking home defense with just themselves and the intruder.

    Out in public like a movie theater would be tricky. It's possible the better solution would be to fire over everyone's heads causing the intruder to duck instead of trying to shoot him in a chaotic crowded room. Cover fire might help other people to escape or even scare off the shooter.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    They don't seem to be taking into consideration that when law-abiding populations are better armed, these types of incidents occur less frequently to begin with.
    Perhaps that "when" is just not firmly and widely enough established yet.

  14. #12
    Even allowing for the inability to conduct a valid study, to go down fighting is preferred to other alternatives.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  15. #13
    They need to take money they spend on the judicial system and provide free training to every citizen and ammunition.
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  16. #14
    [Researchers] recruited 77 volunteers with varying levels of firearm experience and training, and had each of them participate in simulations of three different scenarios using the firearms training simulator at the Prince George's County Police Department in Maryland...

    They found that, perhaps unsurprisingly, people without firearms training performed poorly in the scenarios. They didn't take cover. They didn't attempt to issue commands to their assailants. Their trigger fingers were either too itchy -- they shot innocent bystanders or unarmed people, or not itchy enough -- they didn't shoot armed assailants until they were already being shot at.
    Well, obviously that explains why, out of over 11 million CCW holders in the US, the rough average is 76 people killed a year.

    And the cops kill well over a thousand.

  17. #15
    Report: Number Of Concealed Carry Permits Surges As Violent Crime Rate Drops

    July 10, 2014 10:30 AM

    http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/...me-rate-drops/

    WASHINGTON (CBS DC) — A surge in the number of Americans with permits to carry concealed weapons coincides with a significant drop in violent crime in the U.S., a new report finds.

    The “Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States” report from the Crime Prevention Research Center released Wednesday analyzed parallels between a 22 percent drop in the overall violent crime rate in the same time period in which the percentage of the adult population with concealed carry permits soared by 130 percent.

    The report finds that 11.1 million Americans now have permits to carry concealed weapons, which are up from 4.5 million in 2007. This 146 percent increase parallels a nearly one-quarter (22 percent) drop in both murder and violent crime rates during the same time period.

    Regarding right-to-carry laws as a form of deterrence to violent crime, the study authors note that the large majority of peer-reviewed academic studies conclude that permitted concealed handguns reduce violent crime. Those debates center around those who claim concealed handgun permits reduce crime and those who say it has no effect. The CPRC report focuses on states that allow right-to-carry permits and states that don’t require permits for concealed weapons rather than just the amount of permits.

    Additionally, the report notes that the number of concealed carry permit holders “is likely much higher than 11.1 million,” because numbers are not available for all statues that issue permits, such as New York. And four states and the vast majority of Montana don’t require residents to have a permit to carry concealed handguns within the state – most of those permits are issued to carry outside the state.

    Using that foundation, the report finds that the six states that allow people to carry concealed handguns without a permit have much lower murder and violent crime rates than the six states with the lowest permit rates. Additionally, the murder rate is nearly one-quarter (23 percent) lower in states not requiring permits, and the violent crime rate is 12 percent lower.

    The murder and violent crime rates are lower in the 25 states with the highest permit rates compared to the rest of the U.S.

    “When you allow people to carry concealed handguns, you see changes in the behavior of criminals,” John R. Lott, the center’s president, told Fox News. “Some criminals stop committing crimes, others move on to crimes in which they don’t come into contact with victims and others actually move to areas where they have less fear of being confronted by armed victims.”

    Although cautioning that nationwide “simple cross-sectional comparisons” can present misleading data, the report used new state -level permit data from 2007 on to determine that for each one percentage point increase in the percent of the U.S. adult population holding permits is roughly paralleled with a 1.4 percent drop in the murder rate.

    “We found that the size of the drop [in crime] is directly related to the percentage of the population with permits,” Lott told Fox News.

    A few highlights of the concealed carry data by state: Florida has issued the most concealed carry permits at 1.28 million, although South Dakota, Indiana and Alabama all sit above 10 percent for the state’s population that holds concealed carry permits. Eight percent or more of the population in 10 states hold concealed carry permits.

    The number of permits increased by roughly 2.7 million permit holders in 1999 to 4.6 million eight years later in 2007. But in December 2011, the federal Government Accountability Office estimated that there were at least 8 million concealed handgun permits, and by June 2014 that number had increased beyond 11.1 million U.S. adults.

    The CPRC notes on its website that much of the academic research on gun data is supported by foundations and funding that are more interested in researching gun violence and gun control legislation rather than purely scientific analysis of guns, crime and public safety. In addition to founding the CPRC, Dr. John R. Lott, Jr. is an economist, crime expert and author of books including “More Guns, Less Crime,” “The Bias Against Guns,” and “Freedomnomics.”

  18. #16
    Dis clip holds thirty rounds I ain't gots ta aim.
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  20. #17
    At least the regular people who get involved in these incidents are at the right address at the right time.

    Which is more than the cops can say. Even if they can find the scene of the crime (which is not a given; witness all the stories of no-knock warrants served at the wrong house) they wait around the corner for backup before they get anywhere close to where people are in danger.

    I find it amusing they take a group with 'varying amounts of training' (and probably included several who never carried a gun in their lives and won't start now) instead of looking at data from incidents where an armed civilian was present when a real crime took place. It has been my experience that the only people who shouldn't carry, but do anyway, are cops.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 08-02-2015 at 06:47 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    They need to take money they spend on the judicial system and provide free training to every citizen and ammunition.
    Or even, at least, a tax credit for the cost of firearm training(s).

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by VIDEODROME View Post
    The only thing to really worry about measuring is collateral damage and deaths of nearby innocents.

    It also depends on the scenario they expect a noobie to be in. I'm thinking home defense with just themselves and the intruder.

    Out in public like a movie theater would be tricky. It's possible the better solution would be to fire over everyone's heads causing the intruder to duck instead of trying to shoot him in a chaotic crowded room. Cover fire might help other people to escape or even scare off the shooter.
    Great point. I mostly carry a mouse gun (.380 Seecamp, 7 rounds). I've always thought I would never engage in this type of situation till absolutely necessary. One shot in the air might create a window for lots of possible scenarios to play out. Hopefully positive...
    "Nobody wins in a Dairy Challenge" ~ Kenny Rogers, RIP


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  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by sam1952 View Post
    Great point. I mostly carry a mouse gun (.380 Seecamp, 7 rounds). I've always thought I would never engage in this type of situation till absolutely necessary. One shot in the air might create a window for lots of possible scenarios to play out. Hopefully positive...
    I have had to pull a CCW weapon in defense twice in my life.

    On both occasions, merely having the weapon out, and the laser dot illuminating the aggressor, was enough to de-escalate the situation with no shots fired and no one hurt.

  24. #21
    NEW YORK – *All nine people wounded during a dramatic confrontation between police and a gunman outside the Empire State Building were struck by bullets fired by the two officers, police said Saturday, citing ballistics evidence.
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25...olice-gunfire/

    And another story of bystanders shot by cops.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/05/ny...uare.html?_r=0
    Last edited by Henry Rogue; 08-02-2015 at 10:49 AM.
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  25. #22
    "Regular people"
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  26. #23
    I completely agree that the average shooter should absolutely get firearms training.

    HOWEVER, these people clearly have an agenda of the banning type. "Oh its common sense to require training to own a gun..."
    "I know the urge to arm yourself, because that’s what I did. I was trained in firearms. When I walked to the hospital when my husband was sick, I carried a concealed weapon. I made the determination that if somebody was going to try to take me out I was going to take them with me."

    Diane Feinstein, 1995

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    Even allowing for the inability to conduct a valid study, to go down fighting is preferred to other alternatives.
    The first lesson of law enforcement is, at the end of your shift, go home alive. Thus ends the lesson.



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  29. #25
    How well did they do in comparison to people who didn't have a gun?
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

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  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    How well did they do in comparison to people who didn't have a gun?
    The gunless ran and hid, behind and/or under something.

  31. #27
    A great load of baloney.

    Issuing orders? The HELL? When it is time to shoot, one doesn't issue orders to the target. One SHOOTS the target. Talking when you should be shooting is a great way to get oneself killed.

    As for being "useless", another load of bull dinky. Go ahead and break into my "regular" friend's house and see how well you fare. She's 80 years old and DEADLY accurate. You would not survive. Her husband is a champion caliber IPSC shooter and he'd have no chance to get a shot in edgewise because wifey would have it all covered.

    A sample population of 77. Contrived circumstances. All bull$#@!.

    FAIL^FAIL.
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  32. #28
    This "study" is biased, and infers a wrong conclusion based on the result. The typical "armed citizen" lethal force application is a defensive measure, in response to a direct deadly threat presented to them, beyond their immediate control without using deadly force as a response. These shoot/don't shoot simulators are designed for a law enforcement application. IE... police receive a telephone call from bank personnel to investigate a suspicious person loitering by the ATM machine, harassing customers, and displaying bizarre erratic behavior. As the police approach,the suspect has his/her hands in their pockets. Police would naturally take a defensive cover position and issue verbal commands. A typical "armed citizen" would call the police and avoid the situation altogether if possible. "armed citizens" are being judged on their law enforcement applications? I get the idea of marksmanship training, but using good common sense and judgement with the understanding they will be held accountable for their actions should about do it. It is not like an "armed citizenry" will be conducting vigilante style law enforcement stops of suspected threats, they will be using a lethal force option on actual threats. There is a difference. This study basically shows some people lacking law enforcement training would not make good cops... go figure... Some people with law enforcement training aren't good cops.
    Last edited by Leaning Libertarian; 08-05-2015 at 07:07 PM.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    A great load of baloney.

    Issuing orders? The HELL? When it is time to shoot, one doesn't issue orders to the target. One SHOOTS the target. Talking when you should be shooting is a great way to get oneself killed.

    As for being "useless", another load of bull dinky. Go ahead and break into my "regular" friend's house and see how well you fare. She's 80 years old and DEADLY accurate. You would not survive. Her husband is a champion caliber IPSC shooter and he'd have no chance to get a shot in edgewise because wifey would have it all covered.

    A sample population of 77. Contrived circumstances. All bull$#@!.

    FAIL^FAIL.

    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    A great load of baloney.

    Issuing orders? The HELL? When it is time to shoot, one doesn't issue orders to the target. One SHOOTS the target. Talking when you should be shooting is a great way to get oneself killed.

    As for being "useless", another load of bull dinky. Go ahead and break into my "regular" friend's house and see how well you fare. She's 80 years old and DEADLY accurate. You would not survive. Her husband is a champion caliber IPSC shooter and he'd have no chance to get a shot in edgewise because wifey would have it all covered.

    A sample population of 77. Contrived circumstances. All bull$#@!.

    FAIL^FAIL.
    It depends on the situation. Say you are at a convenience store and a dude has his back to you dealing with robbing the clerk. Yelling, "Freeze, police, drop the weapon." May save everyone a lot of trouble. Just be ready to shoot if they don't follow your commands. Criminals many times do respond to your commands, as they know taking on a cop will end up being very bad for them.
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