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Thread: Today's Anti-Capitalists Ignore the Fundamental Problems of Socialism

  1. #1

    Today's Anti-Capitalists Ignore the Fundamental Problems of Socialism



    Anti-market and pro-socialist rhetoric is surging in headlines (see also here, here, and here) and popping up more and more on social media feeds. Much of the time, these opponents of markets can’t tell the difference between state-sponsored organizations like the International Monetary Fund and actual markets. But, that doesn’t matter because the articles and memes are often populist and vaguely worded — intentionally framed in such a way to easily deflect uninformed attacks and honest descriptions of what they are actually saying. In the end, they can all be boiled down to one message: socialism works and is better than capitalism.

    While most of it comes from the Left, the Right is not innocent, since the Right appears to be primarily concerned with promoting its own version of populism, which apparently does not involve a defense of markets. “Build bigger walls at the border,” for example, is not a sufficient response to “All profits are evil!”

    Instead of stooping to this level or simply resorting to “Read Mises!” (a more fitting response), we must show, yet again, that socialism — even under well-meaning political leaders — is impossible and leads to disastrous consequences.

    The Necessity of Profits, Prices, and Entrepreneurs

    Socialism is the collective ownership (i.e., a state monopoly) of the means of production. It calls for the abolition of private ownership of factors of production. Wages and profits are two parts of the same pie, and socialism says the profit slice should be zero.

    The inherent theoretical problems of socialism all emanate from its definition, and not the particulars of its application. However, the supporters of socialism define “collective,” as no exchange of the factors of production. And without exchange, there can be no prices, and without prices there is no way to measure the costs of production.

    In an unhampered market economy, the prices of the factors of production are determined by their aid in producing things that consumers want. They tend to earn their marginal product, and because every laborer has some comparative advantage, there is a slice of pie for everybody.

    If technological changes make certain factors more productive, or if education and training makes a laborer more productive, their prices or wages may be bid up to their new, higher marginal product. An entrepreneur would not like to hire or buy any factor at a price that exceeds its marginal product because the entrepreneur would then incur losses.

    Entrepreneurial losses are more important than many realize. They aren’t just hits to the entrepreneur’s bottom line. Losses show that on the market, the resources used to produce something were more highly valued than what they were producing. Losses show that wealth has been destroyed.

    ...
    https://mises.org/library/todays-ant...lems-socialism
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    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
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  3. #2
    It's just a whole lot easier to be an Anti-Capitalist when you can manage to do that.

  4. #3
    "If one understands that socialism is not a share-the-wealth program, but is in reality a method to consolidate and control the wealth, then the seeming paradox of super-rich men promoting socialism becomes no paradox at all. Instead, it becomes logical, even the perfect tool of power-seeking megalomaniacs. Communism or more accurately, socialism, is not a movement of the downtrodden masses, but of the economic elite." -- Gary Allen, Author

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    "If one understands that socialism is not a share-the-wealth program, but is in reality a method to consolidate and control the wealth, then the seeming paradox of super-rich men promoting socialism becomes no paradox at all. Instead, it becomes logical, even the perfect tool of power-seeking megalomaniacs. Communism or more accurately, socialism, is not a movement of the downtrodden masses, but of the economic elite." -- Gary Allen, Author
    That's always been my understanding. Those are the people that truly benefit.

    The ignorant common supporters of socialism are simply people who want a system where they get more out of it then they put in. They are delusional and defy logic. Simplified down to two people, they want a system where they put in a dollar, and both get to take out two dollars. 1+1=4. Of course there is also an element of deception and getting over on everyone else. No doubt a whole lot of those supporters believe that they will be the ones to get more than they put in, and others will be the ones who don't get anything out of it. In other words, they believe in institutionalized theft.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  6. #5
    Socialism is the collective ownership (i.e., a state monopoly) of the means of production.
    Not to split hairs, but isn't that full blown communism, as opposed to socialism? IIRC, Marx was no fan of "socialism".
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    "If one understands that socialism is not a share-the-wealth program, but is in reality a method to consolidate and control the wealth, then the seeming paradox of super-rich men promoting socialism becomes no paradox at all. Instead, it becomes logical, even the perfect tool of power-seeking megalomaniacs. Communism or more accurately, socialism, is not a movement of the downtrodden masses, but of the economic elite." -- Gary Allen, Author
    "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    That's always been my understanding. Those are the people that truly benefit.

    The ignorant common supporters of socialism are simply people who want a system where they get more out of it then they put in. They are delusional and defy logic. Simplified down to two people, they want a system where they put in a dollar, and both get to take out two dollars. 1+1=4. Of course there is also an element of deception and getting over on everyone else. No doubt a whole lot of those supporters believe that they will be the ones to get more than they put in, and others will be the ones who don't get anything out of it. In other words, they believe in institutionalized theft.
    "Democracy is the road to socialism." -- Karl Marx

    "Democracy is indispensable to socialism." -- Vladimir Lenin

  9. #8
    The common mantra ..if only the rich were in a 90% tax bracket. Um well...they wouldn't be rich for long. Of course that's what they want.



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  11. #9
    No argument there, but some of the flaws of socialism are also inherent in capitalism. Humans are flawed beings. A free market requires that people act in their own best interests. Voting for a subsidy while simultaneously voting to regulate your competition out of business is in your best interests, no?

    With regards to socialism, Friedman said to Phil Donahue that there were no angels to run the system. That holds true in capitalism too.

    I am an unabashed capitalist, but not so much that I do not acknowledge that it is also a flawed system.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    No argument there, but some of the flaws of socialism are also inherent in capitalism. Humans are flawed beings. A free market requires that people act in their own best interests. Voting for a subsidy while simultaneously voting to regulate your competition out of business is in your best interests, no?

    With regards to socialism, Friedman said to Phil Donahue that there were no angels to run the system. That holds true in capitalism too.

    I am an unabashed capitalist, but not so much that I do not acknowledge that it is also a flawed system.

    "Capitalism should not be condemned, since we haven't had capitalism." -- Ron Paul


  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    No argument there, but some of the flaws of socialism are also inherent in capitalism. Humans are flawed beings. A free market requires that people act in their own best interests. Voting for a subsidy while simultaneously voting to regulate your competition out of business is in your best interests, no?

    With regards to socialism, Friedman said to Phil Donahue that there were no angels to run the system. That holds true in capitalism too.

    I am an unabashed capitalist, but not so much that I do not acknowledge that it is also a flawed system.
    That's not a problem in a FREE market, that's a problem in an "UN-FREE" market!

    if a system requires angels to run it properly then it's never going to work because we only have flawed humans to work with (hence, the disastrous effects of socialism & communism) but free market capitalism doesn't need anyone to run it, it runs itself through the Price System.
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II View Post
    That's not a problem in a FREE market, that's a problem in an "UN-FREE" market!

    if a system requires angels to run it properly then it's never going to work because we only have flawed humans to work with (hence, the disastrous effects of socialism & communism) but free market capitalism doesn't need anyone to run it, it runs itself through the Price System.
    Exactly.

    Legitimate shortcomings of capitalism: Wealth tends to accrue at the top. Intangibles don't get priced into the market. Doesn't protect the environment.

    Nothing is perfect. Forgot got who said it, but "err on the side of freedom".
    Non-violence is the creed of those that maintain a monopoly on force.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by limequat View Post
    Exactly.

    Legitimate shortcomings of capitalism: Wealth tends to accrue at the top. Intangibles don't get priced into the market. Doesn't protect the environment.

    Nothing is perfect. Forgot got who said it, but "err on the side of freedom".
    The fact that wealth accrues at the top is a VIRTUE of capitalism, not a shortcoming. It allows for capital accumulation, investment & faster growth of the economy which eventually benefits everyone because free market causes the capital to be accumulated in the hands of those who are most adept at maximizing its utility.

    Depends what you mean by "intangibles"......

    Capitalism doesn't lead to environmental damage, "public/government ownership" does! It's the Tragedy the Commons in action. Private ownership > public/government ownership.

    Here's a couple of videos on libertarian solutions to environmental problems. There was another older better video on it but I can't find it right now but you can search for more content on google by Walter Block on this topic if you are interested.





    Of course, this is not to say that capitalism is "perfect" (what is perfect, after all?) but it's certainly by far the best system for propelling economic growth & raising people's living standards, without violence & coercion.
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post

    "Capitalism should not be condemned, since we haven't had capitalism." -- Ron Paul


    All of it depends on what one means by "capitalism." If one were to equate it with the free market, then we should obviously be for that. But generally speaking "capitalism" in this modern world means a system where the government manipulates the market to benefit the wealthy. Socialism also isn't a dirty word, it depends on how one uses it. I'm all for something such as market socialism.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post

    "Capitalism should not be condemned, since we haven't had capitalism." -- Ron Paul

    But the list of reasons that make that statement true are the list of flaws in the system.

    Capitalism> an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

  18. #16
    I don't really get this retarded logic that it's either capitalism or socialism. Why can't both exist? If people want to live in a socialist society, let them. I don't understand why there were so many wars in the last century over countries turning over to communism. Look at Russian society now that it is back to a more capitalist country, It has turned to $#@!. The oligarchs have all the wealth while a majority of the population lives in filth and does drugs. The major flaw of a free capitalist society is people do not have an obligation to be charitable. It doesn't work when you have generations of people who are brought up with approximately 0 morals. Eventually, if humans don't kill each other off, robots will do all the work so there will be nothing left to buy and sell, and capitalism will end up being obsolete.
    A savage barbaric tribal society where thugs parade the streets and illegally assault and murder innocent civilians, yeah that is the alternative to having police. Oh wait, that is the police

    We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
    - Edward R. Murrow

    ...I think we have moral obligations to disobey unjust laws, because non-cooperation with evil is as much as a moral obligation as cooperation with good. - MLK Jr.

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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post

    "Capitalism should not be condemned, since we haven't had capitalism." -- Ron Paul

    Yep.

    What we have now is mercantilism, which is what the Revolutionary War was really fought over.

    True capitalism means that each individual is free to do his business, invent or produce goods as he sees fit. The public is free to buy his products or services or bypass him for something better. Popular goods get cheaper and sales and employment go up. Those with goods that didn't gain a market are free to go back to the drawing board and try something different, w/o gov interference.
    There is no spoon.

  21. #18
    I think either Socialism or Capitalism can work to some degree, but after a point, strange flaws and excess waste seem to come about in both systems.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Yep.

    What we have now is mercantilism, which is what the Revolutionary War was really fought over.

    True capitalism means that each individual is free to do his business, invent or produce goods as he sees fit. The public is free to buy his products or services or bypass him for something better. Popular goods get cheaper and sales and employment go up. Those with goods that didn't gain a market are free to go back to the drawing board and try something different, w/o gov interference.
    Mercantilist societies had far smaller government than we have now.
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    Mercantilist societies had far smaller government than we have now.
    When slavery was legal in societies, they had far smaller government than we do now.

    Good thing correlation isn't causation, eh?

    People were also far poorer than we are today, BTW, in Mercantilism, because of all the economic inefficiencies in monopolies versus open, free, and competitive markets. We don't have a free market, but we certainly have a free-er one than with state-granted monopolies over industries via tariffs and other protectionist nonsense. All state limits on competition (and tort liability) lead to 3 results:

    1. Higher prices than in free, open, and competitive situations.
    2. Lower worker compensation (even if it creates more employment, the number of employers is reduced below market level, thereby leading to less bidders in the labor market to allow discovery of market level compensation).
    3. Worse quality of goods and services over time, and less transparency from producers to consumers, which leads to less accountability.

    It protects native rich people who lobby the state at the expense of the standard of living for every consumer in the society. You trade overall societal well being for crony capitalism, and all you get in return is a few more jobs (but not with higher compensation or lower prices, as opposed to the alternative).
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerographica View Post

    Yes, I want to force consumers to buy trampolines, popcorn, environmental protection and national defense whether or not they really demand them. And I definitely want to outlaw all alternatives. Nobody should be allowed to compete with the state. Private security companies, private healthcare, private package delivery, private education, private disaster relief, private militias...should all be outlawed.
    ^Minimalist state socialism (minarchy) taken to its logical conclusions; communism.



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