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Thread: Rabbi Jonathan Cahn - Free Will and Predestination Both Exist

  1. #1

    Rabbi Jonathan Cahn - Free Will and Predestination Both Exist

    Man after my own heart.

    I've said this for a long time on RPF.

    It's not even anti-physics. God's will simply is done over all timelines. I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding this.

    Calvinism vs. Armenianism debate is fallacious. Man's will and God's will both exist, God's will is simply omnipotent.



    PEOPLE EVERYWHERE NEED TO START LISTENING TO JONATHAN CAHN.

    Read his books, watch his videos, visit link in my signature. You have no idea how short the time is and how many things have already been revealed. WE ARE BEYOND THE POINT OF SPECULATION about prophecies being fulfilled. Jonathan's ministry shows that. The only reason you aren't seeing is because you truly do not care to pay attention.

    Furthermore, people use the predestination to support fallacious theories of eternal torment which is also unbiblical.

    I encourage people who are concerned about or disagree about eternal hell and damnation to read The Fire of God's Anger. It's by Lewis Carter Baker and free on google play.

    I've read it and started a thread on it here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...of-God-s-Anger
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6



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  3. #2
    Wizzy--I do believe you've hit a home run here. Jonathan Cahn is wonderful, I've always liked him. And yes--both the free will and predestination work together and not apart--just the same as Gods grace and faith do--one without the other will not work. I've been saying that for years in here as well. Haven't you been reading me? Lol

    There's no such thing as "grace alone" or "faith alone" or "free will alone" or "predestination alone". They work as a team or none of them work at all.

    It's "grace through faith" or nothing. We are predestined *that it might be* based upon our willingness to overcome and endure to the end through our good works that God commanded us to do. Without them--we have no way to overcome anything through our faith. Rev. 3:5

    Faith is an action word--it means we have to actually choose to do the right things in life. God wants us to get off or lazy butts and act in faith--in full belief that His word is settled in heaven. How can any good happen without Gods children doing something?

    The book of James reconciles with every single thing Paul teaches in His epistles about "faith" and how that functions. Gods grace is the "power" and our faith is that vehicle that answers Gods calling upon our lives. An engine needs a car to run. We then do what the HOly Spirit is telling our consciences to do---that is faith in action---that is a true believer in Christ who acts upon their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Thess.
    11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: 12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Last edited by Terry1; 07-27-2015 at 09:24 AM.

  4. #3
    Another point here I'd like to make is that Wizzy---what Jonathan Cahn teaches opposes that that book you've been reading on eternal torment. Jonathan Cahn does not teach that eternal torment does not exist.

    God has a good reason for this punishment and this is something that His children have to come to terms with and try to understand as God meant it to be understood. The scriptures say what they say.

    Revelation 20:

    9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.The Final Judgment
    11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

  5. #4
    Puppets can't disobey their puppeteer.
    Last edited by robert68; 07-27-2015 at 10:13 AM.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Another point here I'd like to make is that Wizzy---what Jonathan Cahn teaches opposes that that book you've been reading on eternal torment. Jonathan Cahn does not teach that eternal torment does not exist.

    God has a good reason for this punishment and this is something that His children have to come to terms with and try to understand as God meant it to be understood. The scriptures say what they say.

    Revelation 20:

    9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.The Final Judgment
    11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Have you read the book?

    Before I address my position on that, I just want to tell you I've been on here a while talking about Jonathan. I've never endorsed any preacher as fully as I've endorsed Rabbi Cahn and you are the first person on this forum who has sent back a decidedly positive response.

    I hope you read more and watch more of his videos and I hope the spirit moves you to talk to others as time is short. Thanks for your response.

    ...

    As to The Fire of God's Anger.

    The beast is not a person. The false prophet is also not a person. (probably)

    First go watch the two videos I most recently posted in my Rabbi Cahn 9/11 thread. Post #36

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...pooky-Shemitah

    If you are a true seeker and you haven't seen Jonathan talk about the beast, Hannukah, and the abomination of desolation, you will be blown away. I was.

    The "eternal shame" and "eternal contemp" is impersonal towards false law and the spirit of the anti-christ. In essence, those "things" will always be outlawed and shameful. They will be eternally resisted and inferior.

    ...

    Hell.

    A lot of people think that means hell isn't real. Either hell is eternal or pointless since everyone goes to heaven. False. In my opinion lack of eternal hell is more real and makes hell more real. You reap what you sow. Those who reject Christ will die and be resurrected. Some will lose their soul in hell BUT STILL be resurrected but to a ressurrection of judgement where the righteous will rule over them and they will have to make an even longer journey back to God than they would have if they had tried in this world.

    Better than dead forever.

    There is a class of "dead forever".

    These are the ones who are resurrected during the millenial reign but are not of God. They will be brought back to life by the power of the Holy Spirit and then reject it and turn once again to Satan. These are not eternally tormented but eternally destroyed. To nothing.

    That is why it is said that blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable. How can you be saved if resurrection from death doesn't even turn you to the Lord.

    Anyway, all explained much better by Baker in the book.

    So I disagree. You have to understand the meanings of the words and symbols in the "eternal hell" references in Revelation and by Christ. By understanding Cahn and reading that book, you seem like someone who could like I was.

    In a weird way the book made hell more real and yet gave me a lot of hope.

    I hope you will keep paying attention.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by robert68 View Post
    Puppets can't disobey their puppeteer.
    Care to elaborate?
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  8. #7
    Free will and predestination can exist together...if you deny logic.

    You can put any two paradoxical things together if you want to be irrational.

    But if you want to be logical (and Biblical), then paradoxes do not exist.

    Add on top of that where over and over again the Bible says that man's will is enslaved to sin and not free (and that God predestines everything).

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    Have you read the book?

    Before I address my position on that, I just want to tell you I've been on here a while talking about Jonathan. I've never endorsed any preacher as fully as I've endorsed Rabbi Cahn and you are the first person on this forum who has sent back a decidedly positive response.

    I hope you read more and watch more of his videos and I hope the spirit moves you to talk to others as time is short. Thanks for your response.

    ...

    As to The Fire of God's Anger.

    The beast is not a person. The false prophet is also not a person. (probably)

    First go watch the two videos I most recently posted in my Rabbi Cahn 9/11 thread. Post #36

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...pooky-Shemitah

    If you are a true seeker and you haven't seen Jonathan talk about the beast, Hannukah, and the abomination of desolation, you will be blown away. I was.

    The "eternal shame" and "eternal contemp" is impersonal towards false law and the spirit of the anti-christ. In essence, those "things" will always be outlawed and shameful. They will be eternally resisted and inferior.

    ...

    Hell.

    A lot of people think that means hell isn't real. Either hell is eternal or pointless since everyone goes to heaven. False. In my opinion lack of eternal hell is more real and makes hell more real. You reap what you sow. Those who reject Christ will die and be resurrected. Some will lose their soul in hell BUT STILL be resurrected but to a ressurrection of judgement where the righteous will rule over them and they will have to make an even longer journey back to God than they would have if they had tried in this world.

    Better than dead forever.

    There is a class of "dead forever".

    These are the ones who are resurrected during the millenial reign but are not of God. They will be brought back to life by the power of the Holy Spirit and then reject it and turn once again to Satan. These are not eternally tormented but eternally destroyed. To nothing.

    That is why it is said that blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable. How can you be saved if resurrection from death doesn't even turn you to the Lord.

    Anyway, all explained much better by Baker in the book.

    So I disagree. You have to understand the meanings of the words and symbols in the "eternal hell" references in Revelation and by Christ. By understanding Cahn and reading that book, you seem like someone who could like I was.

    In a weird way the book made hell more real and yet gave me a lot of hope.

    I hope you will keep paying attention.
    I didn't need to read the book Wizzy, because I already know it's wrong. You should follow your own advice and toss the book out and listen to Jonathan Cahn. He does not teach what the book you're reading does. You've got yourself on two sides here---one is right and one is wrong. Listen to Jonathan.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by robert68 View Post
    Puppets can't disobey their puppeteer.
    Again, the puppet analogy is not valid because puppets don't have wills. Men do have wills.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Again, the puppet analogy is not valid because puppets don't have wills. Men do have wills.
    According to you, who gave men wills? God.

    According to you, who controls men's wills? God.

    The puppet analogy is spot on.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Free will and predestination can exist together...if you deny logic.

    You can put any two paradoxical things together if you want to be irrational.

    But if you want to be logical (and Biblical), then paradoxes do not exist.

    Add on top of that where over and over again the Bible says that man's will is enslaved to sin and not free (and that God predestines everything).
    You are worshipping an idol. And you call it "logic".

    God makes two paths with two ends he desires in time and space. God gives man the choice to go down either path.

    That does not deny logic. It simply surpasses your understanding of the laws of physics.

    Read more. Talk less.

    It helps.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Free will and predestination can exist together...if you deny logic.

    You can put any two paradoxical things together if you want to be irrational.

    But if you want to be logical (and Biblical), then paradoxes do not exist.

    Add on top of that where over and over again the Bible says that man's will is enslaved to sin and not free (and that God predestines everything).
    It's my biblical logic that tells me that we're only predestined according to what and whom we choose in this life. We are predestined *"TO BE CONFORMED"*. How does someone become "conformed"? The word "conformed" means to "Obey"--"follow", this is all by choice and free will. Hence "predestination is of no significance without" the "free will" to conform--to choose to comply with.

    con·form
    kənˈfôrm/
    verb
    past tense: conformed; past participle: conformed

    • comply with rules, standards, or laws.
      "the kitchen does not conform to hygiene regulations"
      synonyms: comply with, abide by, obey, observe, follow, keep to, stick to, adhere to, uphold, heed, accept, go along with, fall in with, respect, defer to; Moresatisfy, meet, fulfill
      "visitors have to conform to our rules"




      synonyms: follow convention, be conventional, fit in, adapt, adjust, follow the crowd; Morecomply, acquiesce, toe the line, follow the rules;
      submit, yield;
      informalplay it by the book, play by the rules
      "they refuse to conform"



      antonyms: rebel
      • be similar in form or type; agree.
        "the countryside should conform to a certain idea of the picturesque"
        synonyms: match, fit, suit, answer, agree with, be like, correspond to, be consistent with, measure up to, tally with, square with "goods must conform to their description"



        Roman's 8:29 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren





    Then there's "that he might be"--meaning this is all conditional upon the believer willing himself to be conformed to the image of Christ. Only then are we predestined "to be"---"THAT IT MIGHT BE" and only if the believer wills it, chooses it and conforms willingly.

    1 Corinthians 9: 17For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. 18What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
    Last edited by Terry1; 07-27-2015 at 12:29 PM.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    According to you, who gave men wills? God.

    According to you, who controls men's wills? God.

    The puppet analogy is spot on.
    No. Puppets don't have wills. An analogy requires what you are comparing to be similar. Men and puppets aren't similar.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    You are worshipping an idol. And you call it "logic".

    God makes two paths with two ends he desires in time and space. God gives man the choice to go down either path.

    That does not deny logic. It simply surpasses your understanding of the laws of physics.

    Read more. Talk less.

    It helps.
    God is logic. Read the first chapter of John more.

  17. #15
    Why is it whenever I refute someone's argument they just pout, deny, and tell me to go read more?

    Are they hoping I'll make the same reading comprehension mistakes they made and come back and bow down?

    Use your "logic" to defy the sentences I gave you to establish that free will and God's omnipotence can coexist... or stop lying on God, stop boasting about things you clearly shouldn't be, and go read some more.

    ....

    I don't have time to chase every lying mouth around on this forum. Just because you see me posting on others stuff and not yours doesn't mean I agree with you in the slightest. It means I'm limited in time and space and have to pick my battles.

    So much pride from so many people on this forum. I can't recall EVER seeing anyone say, "Oh, I totally changed my mind about that." It's like the moment everyone created an account they knew everything and had achieved optimal intelligence and maturity. This year alone I've changed my mind on quite a few things. Learning is a constant process.

    You're wrong about the elect.
    You're wrong about predestination, eternal hell, and so is A.W. Pink.

    And even if/just because scripture is preserved in KJV 1611 doesn't mean your interpreting it correctly.

    ...

    So here, to make you feel at home I'll stoop to your level.

    No! Logic is an idol. YOU go read some more, dummy!
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    I didn't need to read the book Wizzy, because I already know it's wrong. You should follow your own advice and toss the book out and listen to Jonathan Cahn. He does not teach what the book you're reading does. You've got yourself on two sides here---one is right and one is wrong. Listen to Jonathan.
    You don't need to read because you know it's wrong???

    Are you psychic?

    Am I some zealot who wants to make the Rabbi into Jesus?

    Over the last three months I've mentioned the Rabbi on 4 separate threads. I think he's legit. He did open my eyes to a few truths but he didn't "save" me. That happened before I even knew who he was.

    Who do you endorse? Who do you think has the Spirit? Because this is the only person I've ever endorsed on a Christian level to this extent. It seems most people around here only endorse themselves.

    So you can jump in my thread and try to act the wiser if you want, but I don't see the wisdom in throwing out my science book, because I finally found a good math teacher. I haven't heard Rabbi Cahn teach AGAINST what this other book teaches. The day I do, you can be assured I will address the contradiction.

    I always follow my own advice, which is....

    Bring the mind into sharp focus and make it alert so that it can immediately intuit truth,
    which is everywhere.
    The mind must be emancipated from old habits, prejudices,
    restrictive thought processes and even ordinary thought itself.
    - Bruce Lee
    Reality is vast. The bible is what you need to save your soul. But it is only the beginning.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    No. Puppets don't have wills. An analogy requires what you are comparing to be similar. Men and puppets aren't similar.
    Having a will is irrelevant if one can't control it. According to you, men and puppets are alike because someone else is pulling the strings.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Having a will is irrelevant if one can't control it. According to you, men and puppets are alike because someone else is pulling the strings.
    Basically his fallacy is a super-set. A kind of false God.

    The bible says that God is in the set. {God,Person,Jesus,Spirit}. Within that set God relates to things and people. To deny man's will and make God's will the only "real" thing you have to make a new religion of {False God,{God,Person,Jesus,Spirit}}. Then you define your relations with the false God between the members of the original set but still use the same word, God, for the False God in the super set.

    So instead of working towards real understanding you simply shoehorn every line of scripture through the lens of the super-set.

    So I think I'm quite correct to say he has made logic (which is really just set theory) his idol.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Wizzy--I do believe you've hit a home run here. Jonathan Cahn is wonderful, I've always liked him. And yes--both the free will and predestination work together and not apart--just the same as Gods grace and faith do--one without the other will not work. I've been saying that for years in here as well. Haven't you been reading me? Lol

    There's no such thing as "grace alone" or "faith alone" or "free will alone" or "predestination alone". They work as a team or none of them work at all.

    It's "grace through faith" or nothing. We are predestined *that it might be* based upon our willingness to overcome and endure to the end through our good works that God commanded us to do. Without them--we have no way to overcome anything through our faith. Rev. 3:5

    Faith is an action word--it means we have to actually choose to do the right things in life. God wants us to get off or lazy butts and act in faith--in full belief that His word is settled in heaven. How can any good happen without Gods children doing something?

    The book of James reconciles with every single thing Paul teaches in His epistles about "faith" and how that functions. Gods grace is the "power" and our faith is that vehicle that answers Gods calling upon our lives. An engine needs a car to run. We then do what the HOly Spirit is telling our consciences to do---that is faith in action---that is a true believer in Christ who acts upon their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Thess.
    11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: 12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    You don't get to heaven through works. You get to heaven by accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

    But, then again, the guy on the video is of the Jewish faith, so he doesn't believe that Jesus is God's son.
    Last edited by LibertyEagle; 07-27-2015 at 03:14 PM.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    You don't get to heaven through works. You get to heaven by accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

    But, then again, the guy on the video is of the Jewish faith, so he doesn't believe that Jesus is God's son.
    You clearly do not know what a Messianic Jew is.

    Post less. Read more.

    It helps.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Having a will is irrelevant if one can't control it. According to you, men and puppets are alike because someone else is pulling the strings.
    No its not irrelevant. It's an invalid analogy. If you are going to make an analogy, make a valid one.

    Predestination does not void man's will. Man willfully sins with his sinful will, and regenerated men willfully look to God alone with their regenerated wills. The will is vitally important in the the Bible, and it is vitally important in the doctrine of predestination.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    No its not irrelevant. It's an invalid analogy. If you are going to make an analogy, make a valid one.

    Predestination does not void man's will. Man willfully sins with his sinful will, and regenerated men willfully look to God alone with their regenerated wills. The will is vitally important in the the Bible, and it is vitally important in the doctrine of predestination.
    I love peanut butter brained exhibitionists that jump from one foot to the other.

    Sola_Fide Post#7 Free will and predestination can exist together...if you deny logic.
    Sola_Fide Post#21 will is vitally important in the doctrine of predestination

    Now, "of course" I'm "twisting your words" and "I don't understand what you mean".

    Hence, the problem. There is the CORRECT interpretation and meaning. And then there is the Calvinist interpretation and meaning.

    All false preaching attacks words first. That's how they gain the upper hand. It all starts with denying the truth of basic things. Like what everyone agrees "free will" means.
    Last edited by wizardwatson; 07-27-2015 at 03:56 PM.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    You clearly do not know what a Messianic Jew is.

    Post less. Read more.

    It helps.
    Can you refer me to quality literature/media on Messianic Judaism? I'm especially curious if they have an Orthodox view of the Trinity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    You don't need to read because you know it's wrong???

    Are you psychic?

    Am I some zealot who wants to make the Rabbi into Jesus?

    Over the last three months I've mentioned the Rabbi on 4 separate threads. I think he's legit. He did open my eyes to a few truths but he didn't "save" me. That happened before I even knew who he was.

    Who do you endorse? Who do you think has the Spirit? Because this is the only person I've ever endorsed on a Christian level to this extent. It seems most people around here only endorse themselves.

    So you can jump in my thread and try to act the wiser if you want, but I don't see the wisdom in throwing out my science book, because I finally found a good math teacher. I haven't heard Rabbi Cahn teach AGAINST what this other book teaches. The day I do, you can be assured I will address the contradiction.

    I always follow my own advice, which is....



    Reality is vast. The bible is what you need to save your soul. But it is only the beginning.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to wizardwatson again.
    Someone plz +rep my brother wiz for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    I love peanut butter brained exhibitionists that jump from one foot to the other.

    Sola_Fide Post#7 Free will and predestination can exist together...if you deny logic.
    Sola_Fide Post#21 will is vitally important in the doctrine of predestination


    Now, "of course" I'm "twisting your words" and "I don't understand what you mean".

    Hence, the problem. There is the CORRECT interpretation and meaning. And then there is the Calvinist interpretation and meaning.

    All false preaching attacks words first. That's how they gain the upper hand. It all starts with denying the truth of basic things. Like what everyone agrees "free will" means.
    Yes, you are twisting my words. I never said FREE will exists. I said the will exists.

    That is the difference between what the Bible teaches and what sinful men want to believe.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Can you refer me to quality literature/media on Messianic Judaism? I'm especially curious if they have an Orthodox view of the Trinity.
    No.

    Well, other than my "red pill" link in my signature and my other threads.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    You clearly do not know what a Messianic Jew is.

    Post less. Read more.

    It helps.
    I know enough. Messianic Jews <> Christians
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  32. #28
    I lean more towards Sola's position to this, I would simply like to state where him and I differ, and also, how I differ from what this Rabbi is stating.

    The question regarding the "freedom of the will" is tied specifically with the nature of man's will, namely is it based merely in contrary choice or is it tied to an efficacy that is qualitative, ergo does the will derive its efficacy from an outer or inner source. I'm sure Sola would agree with me that, apart from the most fundamental choice of expressing one's faith outwardly (which is the most fundamental sanctifying work from which any good works flow), that man's will is tied to his curse in disobedience. This curse does not mean that all men sin equally, or that all men become as evil as can possibly be imagined, but simply argues an equality of insufficiency in man meriting his own immortality through a broken covenant of works that afflicts all who are fallen (this would exclude only Christ incarnate and Adam and Eve prior to The Fall). It is possible and often occurs that from impure or conflicted motivations that fallen men will do things that are outward good towards others, and this is noted by Paul in Romans 2:14, but this does not speak to man's salvation, but to the continuing unfolding of providence.

    Anyhow, the position of the Reformed both in the Westminster and Heidelburg Catechisms is that man's will and its freedom exists in stages, and that its freedom is defined by these stages. The notion of what one would call a "Libertarian Free Will" which exists in some sort of box that God can not get into, is a wholly pagan concept, and sadly one that has been imported into a number of allegedly Christian schools, including but not limited to Jesuit Molinism, Arminian Soteriology and several other Pelagian or Semi-pelagian strains of thought. Similarly, there is an erroneous view of a "Hard/Mechanistic Determinism" that is present in certain circles that brings in this notion touched upon in the so-called "Problem of Evil" where God's sovereignty presupposes an unrighteous or insane notion that God forces man to sin or do evil. As strongly as I disagree with Sola and a few others regarding their understanding of sanctification, which I think is a slippery slope towards a harder view of determinism, I wouldn't say that he holds this view and that those suggesting his view of God amounts to a sadistic puppet master are mistaken and out of line.

    The bottom line is that there is a compatibilism that exists between the eternal will of God and the created will of Man, the error is assuming that Man's will can aspire to anything pleasing to God if it is in a state of corruption/at enmity with God, and likewise in assuming that simply because God controls the consequences of Man's evil as noted throughout the OT that God was the author of sin. The imputed grace of God, through the expiatory sacrifice of Christ, is the only means by which man is saved, and the freedom of the will is the consequence, NOT THE CAUSE of man's salvation.

    Calvinism vs. Armenianism debate is fallacious. Man's will and God's will both exist, God's will is simply omnipotent.
    Both Calvin and Arminius believed that God and Man possess a will, their divergence is how the two relate to each other, and the argument is a very real one as the latter position has a scant few isolated biblical verses supporting it and argues an equality of man's will and God's in man's salvation, whereas the former has a comprehensive biblical basis, as well as a healthy level of support throughout the church era, and places God's sovereignty in its proper paramount status.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    I lean more towards Sola's position to this, I would simply like to state where him and I differ, and also, how I differ from what this Rabbi is stating.

    The question regarding the "freedom of the will" is tied specifically with the nature of man's will, namely is it based merely in contrary choice or is it tied to an efficacy that is qualitative, ergo does the will derive its efficacy from an outer or inner source. I'm sure Sola would agree with me that, apart from the most fundamental choice of expressing one's faith outwardly (which is the most fundamental sanctifying work from which any good works flow), that man's will is tied to his curse in disobedience. This curse does not mean that all men sin equally, or that all men become as evil as can possibly be imagined, but simply argues an equality of insufficiency in man meriting his own immortality through a broken covenant of works that afflicts all who are fallen (this would exclude only Christ incarnate and Adam and Eve prior to The Fall). It is possible and often occurs that from impure or conflicted motivations that fallen men will do things that are outward good towards others, and this is noted by Paul in Romans 2:14, but this does not speak to man's salvation, but to the continuing unfolding of providence.

    Anyhow, the position of the Reformed both in the Westminster and Heidelburg Catechisms is that man's will and its freedom exists in stages, and that its freedom is defined by these stages. The notion of what one would call a "Libertarian Free Will" which exists in some sort of box that God can not get into, is a wholly pagan concept, and sadly one that has been imported into a number of allegedly Christian schools, including but not limited to Jesuit Molinism, Arminian Soteriology and several other Pelagian or Semi-pelagian strains of thought. Similarly, there is an erroneous view of a "Hard/Mechanistic Determinism" that is present in certain circles that brings in this notion touched upon in the so-called "Problem of Evil" where God's sovereignty presupposes an unrighteous or insane notion that God forces man to sin or do evil. As strongly as I disagree with Sola and a few others regarding their understanding of sanctification, which I think is a slippery slope towards a harder view of determinism, I wouldn't say that he holds this view and that those suggesting his view of God amounts to a sadistic puppet master are mistaken and out of line.

    The bottom line is that there is a compatibilism that exists between the eternal will of God and the created will of Man, the error is assuming that Man's will can aspire to anything pleasing to God if it is in a state of corruption/at enmity with God, and likewise in assuming that simply because God controls the consequences of Man's evil as noted throughout the OT that God was the author of sin. The imputed grace of God, through the expiatory sacrifice of Christ, is the only means by which man is saved, and the freedom of the will is the consequence, NOT THE CAUSE of man's salvation.



    Both Calvin and Arminius believed that God and Man possess a will, their divergence is how the two relate to each other, and the argument is a very real one as the latter position has a scant few isolated biblical verses supporting it and argues an equality of man's will and God's in man's salvation, whereas the former has a comprehensive biblical basis, as well as a healthy level of support throughout the church era, and places God's sovereignty in its proper paramount status.
    When I listen to the Rabbi, I can tell the Spirit is working in him and he makes the bible's message clear.

    When I read your words I just see confusion and pointless pontificating. At least it's obvious. Makes you less dangerous.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    I know enough. Messianic Jews <> Christians
    You don't. I am a little impressed that you know what "<>" means, though.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

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