What Paul Received and Handed On

[Terry1]

Uh-oh. Terry's done jumped the shark. It's like there's a mini-Ronin Truth around here nao...

Right is right and wrong is just plain wrong. I say if it can't be biblically justified, then it's all trash and crap people are attracted to for the wrong reasons, which is fine if that's what thrills them, but don't try and say Jesus Christ said it or His apostles.

[Terry1]

I know what you mean. And if others have chosen another path, then may it be blessed. God will judge. What I can't stand however is for people who put themselves to be greater then the Christian saints accuse them and other Orthodox Christians of idol worship, simply because they can't understand such piety and traditions, using their own limited and fallible minds as the standard of what is true and right. Such a prideful and disobedient attitude is not the type of person I want to be in spiritual fellowship with, and indeed, would disqualify them from being received into the Church (and for good reason).

Fact is TER--you don't know if those dead saints are all in heaven with the Lord God--because you don't know whom God has chosen. So why if this is true--would someone do something as stupid as to presume upon God that just because your church elders said so--it must be true--wtf?

[TER]

Fact is TER--you don't know if those dead saints are all in heaven with the Lord God--because you don't know whom God has chosen. So why if this is true--would someone do something as stupid as to presume upon God that just because your church elders said so--it must be true--wtf?

Why should I presume you know better than the Church? I don't want to join your church, I want to join the Church of the Christian Saints which have been of one spirit and one mind since the beginning. You think you know better then them, but I feel much more confident that they were closer (and in death, even closer) to God than you. Sorry Terry. But between you and the saints of old, you lose in my book and that is why I value their teachings more than yours and their intercessions more than yours.

[moostraks]

Need a bigger stick to stir $#@! with? This was all exegetical until you bounced in from the peanut gallery because you never have anything intellectual to offer other than your snarky snide remarks.

From someone as yourself that condones wicca and then claims it's not witchcraft--I find this all very amusing and sad at the same time.

I embrace people who have been mischaracterized and shunned by the holier than thou self proclaimed religious authorities. Try to get your facts straight. I understand the hatred they have faced from " Christians". You have some bizarre ideas about the Pagan community that seem to be straight out of Hollywood.

It is not stirring to ask you to account for your arbitrary choice of a standard set by a group so late to the party. So, rather than answer a genuine question for the legitimacy of your so called standard, you play the typical character attack to hope and distract others from the weakness in validating your position.

[Terry1]

Why should I presume you know better than the Church?.

What do you not understand here? And why would you believe your church if it doesn't believe this either?

Exodus 20:1

1And God spake all these words, saying,
2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

I don't want to join your church, I want to join the Church of the Christian Saints which have been of one spirit and one mind since the beginning. You think you know better then them, but I feel much more confident that they were closer (and in death, even closer) to God than you. Sorry Terry. But between you and the saints of old, you lose in my book.

Great, I don't want to join your church either--try listening to the Holy Spirit--that's the only "church" any true believer needs these days with the crap that's being passed off as Gods word and since the church of four walls began for that matter. That pretty much covers your ancient church as well as all of the others that have written their own bibles.

[moostraks]

I know what you mean. And if others have chosen another path, then may it be blessed. God will judge. What I can't stand however is for people who put themselves to be greater then the Christian saints accuse them and other Orthodox Christians of idol worship, simply because they can't understand such piety and traditions, using their own limited and fallible minds as the standard of what is true and right. Such a prideful and disobedient attitude is not the type of person I want to be in spiritual fellowship with, and indeed, would disqualify them from being received into the Church (and for good reason).

I understand and agree. I can grasp how it works for others, but for me it would be a stumbling block which in turn would be detrimental to associating within say an EOC church. I would feel like a fraud or as though I was not being consistent to my own sincerely held beliefs.

[moostraks]

What do you not understand here? And why would you believe your church if it doesn't believe this either?

Exodus 20:1

1And God spake all these words, saying,
2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.





Great, I don't want to join your church either--try listening to the Holy Spirit--that's the only "church" any true believer needs these days with the crap that's being passed off as Gods word and since the church of four walls began for that matter. That pretty much covers your ancient church as well as all of the others that have written their own bibles.

Why give the pass to the Reformed and make them the standard when they were using scissors to the text?

[Terry1]

Why give the pass to the Reformed and make them the standard when they were using scissors to the text?

As if you would know or even understand when you can't even rightly divide the word of God enough to tell the difference between witchcraft and the scripture from the word of God you quote to defend yourself when you're called on these utterly ridiculous and contradictory statements you make. You're not worth any more of my time. Lol

[heavenlyboy34]

Right is right and wrong is just plain wrong. I say if it can't be biblically justified, then it's all trash and crap people are attracted to for the wrong reasons, which is fine if that's what thrills them, but don't try and say Jesus Christ said it or His apostles.

Yup. Sola Scriptura (and the other Solas) are just plain wrong.

[TER]

What do you not understand here? And why would you believe your church if it doesn't believe this either?

Exodus 20:1

1And God spake all these words, saying,
2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.





Great, I don't want to join your church either--try listening to the Holy Spirit--that's the only "church" any true believer needs these days with the crap that's being passed off as Gods word and since the church of four walls began for that matter. That pretty much covers your ancient church as well as all of the others that have written their own bibles.

I have already explained to you that images (aka icons) where used in Jewish and Christian worship. I already explained to you that departed saints interceding for men is Biblical as well as according to the teachings handed down by the early Saints. I have already explained to you that the Church believers incorporated asking for the intercession of the departed saints into their worship and hymnography. I am sorry that you cannot see how your personal interpretation is not in accordance to the understanding of the Christian Church. Best of luck with your church. I choose the saints and the wisdom of the Church over you.

[Terry1]

I have already explained to you that images (aka icons) where used in Jewish and Christian worship. I already explained to you that departed saints interceding for men is Biblical as well as according to the teachings handed down by the early Saints. I have already explained to you that the Church believers incorporated asking for the intercession of the departed saints into their worship and hymnography. I am sorry that you cannot see how your personal interpretation is not in accordance to the understanding of the Christian Church. Best of luck with your church. I choose the saints and the wisdom of the Church over you.

From the EOC site:
http://www.orthodoxprayer.org/Saints%20in%20Prayer.html

Why Do We Include Saints In Our Prayers?

In our Prayer rule we can also ask the saints to intercede for us and to help us in our worldly struggles. Saints are those holy individuals who have died as martyrs, who have made a fearless confession of faith often with the threat of death, who have demonstrated self-sacrificing service, who have a special gift of healing and perform miracles after their death when remembered in prayer.

Why in the name of God are you praying to the dead for help in worldly struggles??????????? You do not know whom God has chosen. God said not to do this very thing. What is not being clearly seen here?

[TER]

From the EOC site:
http://www.orthodoxprayer.org/Saints%20in%20Prayer.html


Why in the name of God are you praying to the dead for help in worldly struggles??????????? You do not know whom God has chosen. God said not to do this very thing. What is not being clearly seen here?

Because that's what the saints do in heaven, according to the Bible, namely lift up men's prayers to God.

[erowe1]

A great book that covers in detail the subject of the OP is Paul and His Predecessors, by Archibald Hunter.

Because of its age, it's now in the public domain and is available for free online here:
https://archive.org/details/paulandhispredec012786mbp

[Terry1]

Because that's what the saints do in heaven, according to the Bible, namely lift up men's prayers to God.

1. but you are praying to specific images of people whom you have no idea if God's chosen them or not.

2. We have been instructed not to summon the dead for their help or to pray to them for that--reason already mentioned.

God's messengers are whomever God sends on our behalf to lift our prayers to Him--never because we should summon them through prayer to do so or for any other reason for that matter.

[erowe1]

Because that's what the saints do in heaven, according to the Bible, namely lift up men's prayers to God.

What verse is that?

[Terry1]

Yup. Sola Scriptura (and the other Solas) are just plain wrong.

Yes hb--the EOC church is very large, old, attractive and beautiful isn't it. It can be mesmerizing as well if one isn't on their spiritual toes.

[TER]

1. but you are praying to specific images of people whom you have no idea if God's chosen them or not.

2. We have been instructed not to summon the dead for their help or to pray to them for that--reason already mentioned.

God's messengers are whomever God sends on our behalf to lift our prayers to Him--never because we should summon them through prayer to do so or for any other reason for that matter.

I have more confidence in their holiness than I have in yours, Terry, which is why I ask for their intercessions above yours.

[erowe1]

It wasn't through the Papacy that this tradition and practice started, Terry. In fact, it is a practice and tradition which is in found in all Churches which can claim to be apostolic and can trace their respective Churches to the Apostles, (namely, the RCC, the EOC, and the OOC), thus pre-dating any schism.

That's not true. The Synod of Elvira in AD 305 said, "Pictures are not to be placed in churches, so that they do not become objects of worship and adoration." Those bishops had as much claim to apostolic succession as any other ones you might point to. And that synod was earlier than any council (whether local or ecumenical) you can point to that endorses icons. In fact, I doubt you can find any support for icons anywhere in any Christian writing until later than that.

[TER]

What verse is that?

They are listed in a previous post in this thread. Off the top of my head, Revelation and 2 Maccabees.

[heavenlyboy34]

From the EOC site:
http://www.orthodoxprayer.org/Saints%20in%20Prayer.html


Why in the name of God are you praying to the dead for help in worldly struggles??????????? You do not know whom God has chosen. God said not to do this very thing. What is not being clearly seen here?

Nobody prays "to" the dead as if they were demigods or something like that. We pray for their intercessions.

Why Do We Include Saints In Our Prayers?

In our Prayer rule we can also ask the saints to intercede for us and to help us in our worldly struggles. Saints are those holy individuals who have died as martyrs, who have made a fearless confession of faith often with the threat of death, who have demonstrated self-sacrificing service, who have a special gift of healing and perform miracles after their death when remembered in prayer.
These holy people the Lord calls His friends. You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. (John 15:14-15)
They are those He has received in His heavenly mansions in fulfillment of His words: Where I am, there you may be also. (John 14:3) Instead of praying for forgiveness of their sins, we praise them for their struggles in Christ. We make petitions to them asking them to pray for us and the remission of our sins and spiritual growth, seeking their help in our spiritual needs.

The saints are near the Throne of God.
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, who praised the Lord. (Rev 5:11)
Our communion in prayer with the saints is the realization of the bond between Christians on earth and the Heavenly Church. (Heb 12:22-23)
Sacred scripture presents numerous examples that the righteous, while still living can see and hear and know much that is inaccessible to the ordinary understanding. The saints while they were still on earth we able to penetrate in spirit into the world above.
From the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (luke 16:10-31) we know that Abraham being in heaven could hear the cry of the rich man who was suffering in hell, despite the great unbridgeable gulf that separates them.
The Church has always taught the invocation of the saints, convinced they intercede for us before God in heaven. Having a prayer relationship with a saint is another way that we can gain help in our spiritual path to salvation in the Church.
Additional Resources

On Intercessory Prayer (pdf) and On Prayer for the Departed (pdf) by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
Facing up to Mary (pdf): a nice summary for those who have concerns about the whole subject of Mary (Mother of God).
Prayer and the Departed Saints By David C. Ford, Ph.D
On the Intercession and Invocation of the Saints by Reader Christopher Orr
A Protestant's inquiry
Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us by Fr. Aris Metrakos
What we Believe about the Saints By Anthony M. Coniaris
The Place of Lives of Saints in the Spiritual Life
By Hieromonk Damascene
"The Saints are called stars in the spiritual firmament. May we, by remembering the Saints of God, also begin to shine in that firmament. And by making the Saints our friends and preceptors now, may we have them as our heavenly companions in the never-ending Kingdom of Light."
The Role of Saints in the Orthodox Chruch
The Feasts of the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos
Saints to Call Upon for Special Needs
Book: The Orthodox Veneration of Mary The Birthgiver of God, by Saint John Maximovitch, Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1996.
A right understanding of Mary the Birthgiver of God is essential for a right understanding of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. When her image is distorted, the image of her Son becomes distorted, also. This concise little book is a classic exposition of how the historic Christian Church has venerated the Mother of God throughout the ages, and on the chief errors which have attacked this veneration. It clearly tells why the virgin Mary should be honored by all generations, and why at the same time she cannot be considered a co-Redemptress along with Jesus Christ, the only savior of the world.

And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. (Apoc., viii, 3, 4)

[]

[Terry1]

I have more confidence in their holiness than I have in yours, Terry, which is why I ask for their intercessions above yours.

Why do you keep insisting this is about what *I believe* when I'm quoting Gods own commandments in large font? This is a side of you I've never seen before--amazing!

[TER]

That's not true. The Synod of Elvira in AD 305 said, "Pictures are not to be placed in churches, so that they do not become objects of worship and adoration." Those bishops had as much claim to apostolic succession as any other ones you might point to. And that synod was earlier than any council (whether local or ecumenical) you can point to that endorses icons. In fact, I doubt you can find any support for icons anywhere in any Christian writing until later than that.

Using images (icons) are found in the Temple worship of the Jews and in the earliest archeological evidence we have. Just because one local synod expressed certain views in order to counter certain pagan worshipping threats it encountered does not mean it represents the faith as was spread everywhere else and handed down. In other words, a local council does not equate to a catholic profession of the faith. Images being used in worship and asking for the intercessions of the departed saints are found in the early Church writings and hymnography, and indeed, the truth remains, that all three of the Churches which have survived since the apostolic times in sacramental communion proclaim such practices as being both apostolic and catholic.

[heavenlyboy34]

Yes hb--the EOC church is very large, old, attractive and beautiful isn't it. It can be mesmerizing as well if one isn't on their spiritual toes.

Radical individualism of the Reformation is new and attractive and fun, isn't it? It can be mesmerizing if as well if one isn't on their spiritual toes.
(see what I did there? )

[TER]

Why do you keep insisting this is about what *I believe* when I'm quoting Gods own commandments in large font? This is a side of you I've never seen before--amazing!

You are misapplying these verses and mischarecterizing what Orthodox Christians believe. Why do you keep insisting on your interpretation of the Scriptures and the Christian Faith as being greater then the ancient Church?

[Terry1]

That's not true. The Synod of Elvira in AD 305 said, "Pictures are not to be placed in churches, so that they do not become objects of worship and adoration." Those bishops had as much claim to apostolic succession as any other ones you might point to. And that synod was earlier than any council (whether local or ecumenical) you can point to that endorses icons. In fact, I doubt you can find any support for icons anywhere in any Christian writing until later than that.

Thank you for posting this erowe, I was looking for this and couldn't find it.

[erowe1]

Using images (icons) are found in the Temple worship of the Jews and in the earliest archeological evidence we have.

The Temple had images in it, but none that were used as icons. I'm not sure what you mean about our earliest archaeological evidence. But if you mean evidence of icons in churches, that is not true. We do have some early archaeological evidence of Christianity from before the Council of Elvira, but none that includes icons.

Just because one local synod expressed certain views in order to counter certain pagan worshipping threats it encountered does not mean it represents the faith as was spread everywhere else and handed down.

But it does disprove what you claimed, which was that all churches with apostolic succession approved of icons.

[TER]

The Temple had images in it, but none that were used as icons. I'm not sure what you mean about our earliest archaeological evidence. But if you mean evidence of icons in churches, that is not true. We do have some early archaeological evidence of Christianity from before the Council of Elvira, but none that includes icons.

But it does disprove what you claimed, which was that all churches with apostolic succession approved of icons.

Erowe, I am going out for a picnic with my family and will respond to your post when I return.

[heavenlyboy34]

That's not true. The Synod of Elvira in AD 305 said, "Pictures are not to be placed in churches, so that they do not become objects of worship and adoration." Those bishops had as much claim to apostolic succession as any other ones you might point to. And that synod was earlier than any council (whether local or ecumenical) you can point to that endorses icons. In fact, I doubt you can find any support for icons anywhere in any Christian writing until later than that.

Icons are not just "pictures". (religious "pictures" as we think of them in the U.S. are a Western tradition. Art historians generally date them to the Renaissance in my experience.) They are visual texts explaining/expressing people/events/concepts/etc, hence they are said to be "written" not "painted". The tradition came from orthodox ministering to illiterate peoples. We do not worship icons any more than protestants worship their bibles and various other texts.

[erowe1]

Icons are not just "pictures".

Exactly. That's why it's not enough to point to the fact that the Temple had images in it and characterize those images as icons.

[heavenlyboy34]

We have a 2 year old thread on this subject here for everyone to review. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-are-not-idols