Is it really all that complicated?

[hells_unicorn]

the point is simply me wondering aloud if having a good life and a fulfilling walk with God is difficult to understand or difficult to achieve.

Jesus said be like children. Children don't spend much time worrying about theology.

"All I Ever Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten" <--- great book

I know a lot of folks enjoy dissecting and debating it, and that's fine. I wonder though, if other religions get as granular as some Christians do...

So Matthew 18:3 is the only verse in the bible and the rest is a bunch of hooey. Gotcha. But to answer your question, the really involved theological matters like these are the pursuits of church officials, there is even a separate catechism in the Reformed Churches that is more basic for the general congregation, though it gets a good bit more in depth than what you might consider typical Sunday school fun.

Nevertheless, have you ever considered that part of becoming children of God involves learning, becoming educated, and growing up? (1 Corinthians 13:11; Ephesians 4:15; 1 Timothy 4:15; 1 Peter 2:2; 2 Peter 3:18) What does it say about a religion if the only thing going on is us turning into little kids and playing Peter Pan for all eternity? Only in America would anybody confuse religion with Disneyland.

[Eagles' Wings]

Papists claim everything going back to the Gospel of Matthew, particularly Chapter 16, verse 18. To this day, whenever I debate them, they will cite that verse and retroactively attribute what took place at Vatican I to that verse.

From what I've heard out of Ronin, he conflates all of Christianity with Roman Catholicism because Paul is allegedly the quintessential precursor to Roman Catholicism (this is an asinine position, particularly given that Paul epistle to the Galatians was one of the chief sources of Luther's break with Rome). I don't Ronin really cares about or understands what the Council of Nicaea was actually convened for, I think he's more into the whole "Christianity was manufactured by Rome" because it's the cool and hip thing to believe, particularly following the Zeitgeist movie and a bunch of halfwit books that have been put out by like-minded people over the past couple decades.

I think anyone who has been Roman Catholic and then denounced it, had a bit of work to do in understanding why. The voices of certain RCC apologists make me cringe now.

[robert68]

A sane spiritual deity won’t use human intermediaries or the human grapevine to send a message.

[Ronin Truth]

A sane spiritual deity won’t use human intermediaries or the human grapevine to send a message.

A spiritual deity whether sane or not, will do anything, anyway, anyhow, anywhat, anywhere, anywhen with anywho it damned well pleases.

[Ronin Truth]

I'm not sure what you are asking here, Ronin. Can you break it down a bit. Do you want to talk about 4th century Christianity, or what Jesus had in mind for His church, instituted and recorded in the Acts of the Apostles?

Sorry, how about the MAJOR disconnect between what Jesus actually preached, taught and commanded his followers to do, and what eventually became the official state religion of the Satanic Roman Empire, down through the centuries?

In other words, looking at Christianity, I see a whole lot more of the Roman Empire, than I do of Jesus.

Does that help and clarify things enough?

Thanks!

[moostraks]

Whom do you mean, moos?

The capitalization should be a key indicator combined with the usage of verse 28. Whom else would you believe me to be referring to?

[Eagles' Wings]

Sorry, how about the MAJOR disconnect between what Jesus actually preached, taught and commanded his followers to do, and what eventually became the official state religion of the Satanic Roman Empire, down through the centuries?

In other words, looking at Christianity, I see a whole lot more of the Roman Empire, than I do of Jesus.

Does that help and clarify things enough?

Thanks!

I'm not an apologist nor a historian, Ronin, nor a mind reader. If you are like a lot of folks who have been hurt by the church, you've thrown out bad theology, idoltry, false doctrine etc., and also thrown out Jesus Christ. You say you like the teachings of Jesus, so what do think about John 3:18?

Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church, not Peter or Paul. We must never look to man, but to Christ. He will not disconnect from His beloved sheep.

Anyway, you've heard all this before. I think of you often for some reason. Take care.

[Eagles' Wings]

The capitalization should be a key indicator combined with the usage of verse 28. Whom else would you believe me to be referring to?

I'm honestly not sure, moos. Christians readily claim Jesus Christ, the Son of God, as Lord and Savior, of the Sabbath.

[moostraks]

I'm honestly not sure, moos. Christians readily claim Jesus Christ, the Son of God, as Lord and Savior, of the Sabbath.

Uh hunh...so why am I getting asked about this? Again, considering the verse and capitalization that was utilized in my response, why is it you should still be puzzled?

[Eagles' Wings]

Uh hunh...so why am I getting asked about this? Again, considering the verse and capitalization that was utilized in my response, why is it you should still be puzzled?

Curiosity...which killed the cat....so, enough said. Take care, moos.

[Ronin Truth]

I'm not an apologist nor a historian, Ronin, nor a mind reader. If you are like a lot of folks who have been hurt by the church, you've thrown out bad theology, idoltry, false doctrine etc., and also thrown out Jesus Christ. You say you like the teachings of Jesus, so what do think about John 3:18?

Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church, not Peter or Paul. We must never look to man, but to Christ. He will not disconnect from His beloved sheep.

Anyway, you've heard all this before. I think of you often for some reason. Take care.

Nah, the church never hurt me. I'm just very strongly anti-institutional about just almost everything.

From repeated life experiences, I have come to agree with Gandhi.

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”-- Mahatma Gandhi

From my point of view, Jesus and I are .

Thanks for the thoughts. You take care too.

( John 3:18, not exactly one of my favorites, but it's OK. )

[Eagles' Wings]

Nah, the church never hurt me. I'm just very strongly anti-institutional about just almost everything.

From repeated life experiences, I have come to agree with Gandhi.

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”-- Mahatma Gandhi

From my point of view, Jesus and I are .

Thanks for the thoughts. You take care too.

( John 3:18, not exactly one of my favorites, but it's OK. )

You suggest you have been hurt by Christians, per the Gandhi quote, through out your life. I was almost destroyed by "so-called" Christians, as was my nuclear family (husband and kids).

[erowe1]

Whenever I read this forum I always wonder:

Would a loving God really make it all that complicated for us to have a loving relationship with Him, live a good life, and go to Heaven (or whatever you believe happens after death)?

I'm thinking.... no.

All the theological fine points with catechisms, Calvinism, Fundamentalism, Arminianism, etc. strike me as purely man-made ideas - starting with the very first guys that wrote about them through 2000 years of guys writing about them.

What stands in the way of Heaven for people is not how complicated the way is, it's their own sin. They are God's enemies.

[Ronin Truth]

You suggest you have been hurt by Christians, per the Gandhi quote, through out your life. I was almost destroyed by "so-called" Christians, as was my nuclear family (husband and kids).

Nah, there are TONS of people that I don't like who have never hurt me.

I don't provide them with the opportunity.

Sorry to hear about your "Christian" damages. Hang in there. Good luck!

[Eagles' Wings]

Nah, there are TONS of people that I don't like who have never hurt me.

I don't provide them with the opportunity.

Sorry to hear about your "Christian" damages. Hang in there. Good luck!

Doing better than hanging in there.

In the hands of a loving Father.

Worth all the suffering this world has to bring, and surely there will be more.

Soli Deo Gloria!

[robert68]

...
Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church, not Peter or Paul. We must never look to man, but to Christ. He will not disconnect from His beloved sheep.
...

Everything one sees and hears about "Jesus Christ" comes from 'man'.

[Eagles' Wings]

Everything one sees and hears about "Jesus Christ" comes from 'man'.

A Christian looks to Christ, and we know Him through His Word, written by the hand of man, every word inspired by the Holy Spirit. This is what I meant anyway.

[hells_unicorn]

A sane spiritual deity won’t use human intermediaries or the human grapevine to send a message.

Why not? Were you hoping for a talking platypus or a telepathic armadillo perhaps?

Everything one sees and hears about "Jesus Christ" comes from 'man'.

Considering that Jesus was himself incarnate as a man and possessed of a human nature, technically if I was alive in his time and hearing it right from him, I'd still be hearing it from 'man'. What's your point?

[VIDEODROME]

It seems kind of vague. Even the idea of Heaven seems kind of vague. I just know being there is supposed to be nice, but I couldn't describe it.

Maybe people feel uncertain about what Heaven even is as a destination. If you don't really know with certainty where you trying to go, maybe you feel like of lost or uncertain of how to get there.

On top of all that, if someone does choose a path they think makes sense to them, many more people on the sidelines are ready to tell them how they're wrong and going to Hell.

[Ronin Truth]

This Earth is not my home. I'm just passing through.

[robert68]

Why not? Were you hoping for a talking platypus or a telepathic armadillo perhaps?

They could and would deliver a different message that the deity gave them.

Considering that Jesus was himself incarnate as a man and possessed of a human nature, technically if I was alive in his time and hearing it right from him, I'd still be hearing it from 'man'. What's your point?

But you didn’t hear it from him, as didn't every 'man' who has lived since, and all but the few 'men' on earth who did in "his time". My response was to Louise's: “...We must never look to man, but to Christ.”

[heavenlyboy34]

It seems kind of vague. Even the idea of Heaven seems kind of vague. I just know being there is supposed to be nice, but I couldn't describe it.

Maybe people feel uncertain about what Heaven even is as a destination. If you don't really know with certainty where you trying to go, maybe you feel like of lost or uncertain of how to get there.

On top of all that, if someone does choose a path they think makes sense to them, many more people on the sidelines are ready to tell them how they're wrong and going to Hell.

Everything is vague if you haven't experienced it. For example, try explaining the color purple to someone who has never seen it. We humans have a lot of hubris about our understanding of the world (and lack thereof). It causes a great many people to do incredibly stupid and dangerous things. Engaging in politics for example.

[hells_unicorn]

They could and would deliver a different message that the deity gave them.

But they didn't, so it's a moot point. If you have evidence to the contrary, you might present it instead of repeating stupid platitudes that probably came from a George Carlin stand up.

But you didn’t hear it from him, as didn't every 'man' who has lived since, and all but the few 'men' on earth who did in "his time". My response was to Louise's: “...We must never look to man, but to Christ.”

Again, so what? If you have evidence that the scriptures have been tainted to the point that they are not delivering the same message, present it. Furthermore, if God has no control over his prophets, apostles, et cetera, why not just become a materialist/atheist and forget all this Jesus stuff? If God can't control his creation, why dignify his weakness with worship? If we have no assurance of historicity, we have no way of knowing the savior.