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Thread: Paul vows push to defund Planned Parenthood next week

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Brett85 View Post
    The usual left-libertarians are out in force on Rand's Facebook page saying "Rand Paul isn't a libertarian since he wants to defund Planned Parenthood."
    And of course this is lunacy. True libertarians take responsibility for their own actions. If they want abortion, go pay for it. It is not a legitimate role of government to fund abortion.
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  3. #32
    The killing of the unborn is sick enough. Adding in the fact that the body parts are then being sold tells of a sickness that comes from people who place no value in human life, outside of how much profit can be extracted from each one.

    Go Rand, take this issue head first. It is good enough to fire up the entire Bible Belt.



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  5. #33
    I keep getting hammered from the left with the argument that research from fetal tissue has given way to things like the polio vaccine. If Rand Paul is serious about taking this bull by the horns, he needs to be prepared for these sort of 'gotcha's!' I can see it now, "Rand Paul wants everyone to suffer from diseases like polio."

    Maybe at a later point we need an ethical debate thread on this subject. I'm leaning towards thinking it's not ethical to end the life of one being, even if it might benefit millions. Some people worship at the altar of scientific progress. I'm trying to figure out where basic humanity towards one another fits into that equation. (Maybe it doesn't fit, in the liberal mindset, which is all about the collective good at the expense of the individual)

    But I wonder if the American people are unfit to have such a debate on ethics at this time. Most are either too dumb, too distracted, or too selfish. And I'm too harsh.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 07-19-2015 at 11:25 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm
    I part ways with "libertarianism" when it transitions from ideology grounded in logic into self-defeating autism for the sake of ideological purity.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
    It's kind of interesting how Democrats support Planned Parenthood. Because, realistically, wouldn't a ban on abortion greatly increase their voting base? (Considering how many aborted are black)
    Maybe they are pro-choice because of their principles and not political expediency?
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  7. #35
    People can get free birth control without PP.

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Problem is there's lots more people who like government funded birth control than those who don't.

    Given my druthers PP is only one area of government spending I'd cut and one of the smaller ones too.

    I think you'd have better luck arguing on moral grounds than on financial ones.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    I'd throw in a $20 note for a "Condoms for Idiots" go-fund-me.
    I would match ya on that one. Something tells me such a strategy would pay enormous dividends in the long run.

  9. #37
    They should attach the planned parenthood cut with a cut to something else that the GOP tends to like. Then, the true fiscal conservatives will be separated from the partisans.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Brett85 View Post
    The usual left-libertarians are out in force on Rand's Facebook page saying "Rand Paul isn't a libertarian since he wants to defund Planned Parenthood."
    Are these people actually identifying as libertarians, or are they merely broadly associated with the liberty movement?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    Perhaps the most important lesson from Obamacare is that while liberty is lost incrementally, it cannot be regained incrementally. The federal leviathan continues its steady growth; sometimes boldly and sometimes quietly. Obamacare is just the latest example, but make no mistake: the statists are winning. So advocates of liberty must reject incremental approaches and fight boldly for bedrock principles.
    The epitome of libertarian populism

  11. #39
    Hopefully he consults with Amash about the right way to go about this.

    Don't go for some symbolic gesture where you just defund some specific named organization. Go for a law that does not allow any funds to be given to any organization that performs abortions, or that gets more than x% of its revenue from performing abortions or something.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Feeding the Abscess View Post
    Are these people actually identifying as libertarians, or are they merely broadly associated with the liberty movement?
    I don't know, but they're criticizing Rand for not being a libertarian for taking the position that Planned Parenthood shouldn't be funded.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Brett85 View Post
    I don't know, but they're criticizing Rand for not being a libertarian for taking the position that Planned Parenthood shouldn't be funded.
    I don't even. Even a left-libertarian should be able to recognize the difference between being pro-choice and using theft to enforce that position.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    Perhaps the most important lesson from Obamacare is that while liberty is lost incrementally, it cannot be regained incrementally. The federal leviathan continues its steady growth; sometimes boldly and sometimes quietly. Obamacare is just the latest example, but make no mistake: the statists are winning. So advocates of liberty must reject incremental approaches and fight boldly for bedrock principles.
    The epitome of libertarian populism

  15. #42
    Why is he tackling this issue ? What good can come out of this ? Another great advice from the campaign managers.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Why is he tackling this issue ? What good can come out of this ? Another great advice from the campaign managers.
    Removing federal funding from programs is a sound position to take. There are many areas in which Rand could be criticized from a libertarian perspective. This probably won't be one of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    Perhaps the most important lesson from Obamacare is that while liberty is lost incrementally, it cannot be regained incrementally. The federal leviathan continues its steady growth; sometimes boldly and sometimes quietly. Obamacare is just the latest example, but make no mistake: the statists are winning. So advocates of liberty must reject incremental approaches and fight boldly for bedrock principles.
    The epitome of libertarian populism

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    Maybe they are pro-choice because of their principles and not political expediency?
    Oh yeah. There's nothing like a principled infanticide supporter like Debbie Wasserman-Shultz. Really principled.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Feeding the Abscess View Post
    Removing federal funding from programs is a sound position to take. There are many areas in which Rand could be criticized from a libertarian perspective. This probably won't be one of them.
    You'd think that, but you'd be surprised what passes for "libertarianism" these days.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
    It's kind of interesting how Democrats support Planned Parenthood. Because, realistically, wouldn't a ban on abortion greatly increase their voting base? (Considering how many aborted are black)
    Maybe they are pro-choice because of their principles and not political expediency?
    LOL.

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  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Why is he tackling this issue ? What good can come out of this ? Another great advice from the campaign managers.
    I'm confused too. How do you not see this as good?

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    They should attach the planned parenthood cut with a cut to something else that the GOP tends to like. Then, the true fiscal conservatives will be separated from the partisans.
    I think seeing as they violated federal law that prohibits the selling of human organ, the justice department can just use that case to take down the whole org. Then again, there is a chance they did not actually commit any crime. For all we know, they were probably charging them shipping and handling fees which doesn't equate to organ selling. You don't have to punish another organization who didn't do anything wrong because you are going after PP.

    When I remove emotion from this story, I rather see the tissue/organ from the fetuses used for research rather than sent to the biological hazard bin.
    Last edited by juleswin; 07-19-2015 at 08:59 PM.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I'm confused too. How do you not see this as good?
    The issue is very divisive, not very important in the grand scheme of things plus it is impossible to swing anybody's views on this one. I expect net negative out of this. This is something an establishment distractor candidate would do in order to justify failure at a later time. If he is trying to emulate Trump he is going about it the wrong way.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    The issue is very divisive, not very important in the grand scheme of things plus it is impossible to swing anybody's views on this one. I expect net negative out of this. This is something an establishment distractor candidate would do in order to justify failure at a later time. If he is trying to emulate Trump he is going about it the wrong way.
    Can you muster up enough freedom to support people like myself who abhor my tax dollars funding abortions? I would do it for you for your issues.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    The issue is very divisive, not very important in the grand scheme of things plus it is impossible to swing anybody's views on this one. I expect net negative out of this. This is something an establishment distractor candidate would do in order to justify failure at a later time. If he is trying to emulate Trump he is going about it the wrong way.
    It's a very good issue for Rand to focus on, because it's an issue that unites social conservatives and all true libertarians. Libertarians and social conservatives both support cutting off funding to Planned Parenthood.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Can you muster up enough freedom to support people like myself who abhor my tax dollars funding abortions?
    500 mil is a chump change in our gov budget. Don't we have a bigger fish to fry ?

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    The issue is very divisive, not very important in the grand scheme of things plus it is impossible to swing anybody's views on this one. I expect net negative out of this. This is something an establishment distractor candidate would do in order to justify failure at a later time. If he is trying to emulate Trump he is going about it the wrong way.
    How divisive is this? Nobody is actually for funding PP with taxes except extreme left-wing zealots. This is kinda like proposing that we not fund the KKK with taxes.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    500 mil is a chump change in our gov budget. Don't we have a bigger fish to fry ?
    It is so little then let their donors pick up the tab.
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  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Brett85 View Post
    The usual left-libertarians are out in force on Rand's Facebook page saying "Rand Paul isn't a libertarian since he wants to defund Planned Parenthood."
    No , those are commies .

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    LOL.

    The cartoon does not demonstrate how pro-choice people are pro choice because of political expediency rather than principle. (And "principle" is more nuanced than defending everything having to do with choice)
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Oh yeah. There's nothing like a principled infanticide supporter like Debbie Wasserman-Shultz. Really principled.
    Principles that you disagree with doesn't make them not principles. No pro choice person will tell you they are pro choice because they like infanticide.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    Thing is that PP does that. I am against abortion, but think PP does do good with birth control. I don't see how you could designate how PP uses the funds they get though.
    Uh...they already do? In current law, no public funds are currently allowed to directly pay for abortions. And abortions are only 3% of Planned Parenthood's budget anyway and not in any way, shape or form the majority of what PP does for communities.
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  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitMan View Post
    Uh...they already do? In current law, no public funds are currently allowed to directly pay for abortions.
    Of course, since money is fungible, since they fund Planned Parenthood, they do directly fund abortion. Making it look like they don't is just an accounting trick. They need to not fund them at all, for anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitMan View Post
    And abortions are only 3% of Planned Parenthood's budget anyway
    I don't buy that.

    It might be that abortions are 3% of what they do as a percent of total interactions, like they give out 25 condoms (for a few bucks), 49 morning after pills (I dunno, a couple hundred bucks), 13 IUDs (another hundred maybe), 10 brochures (a dollar), and 3 abortions (tens of thousands of dollars). And then they say that abortions are only 3% of what they do, when they're really 99% of their budget.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitMan View Post
    Uh...they already do? In current law, no public funds are currently allowed to directly pay for abortions. And abortions are only 3% of Planned Parenthood's budget anyway and not in any way, shape or form the majority of what PP does for communities.
    It's silly though, because if the public money is not allowed to go to the 3% of their abortion budget and instead goes to the rest of the 97%, then PP in turn will use some of the excess money raised from the 97% and apply it to the 3%. In the end, PP decides how much of their total budget goes to what service, and the government increases their total budget.

    It's like if a community of 10 produces 9 barrels of wheat, And the federal government supplies 1 barrel and says well this barrel can't go to Fred. So the community gives Fred one of their 9 barrels and gives the govt barrel to someone else. Without the government, everyone would have 0.9 barrels, and with the government, everyone including Fred gets 0.1 more barrels even though the govt barrel can't go to Fred.
    Last edited by Crashland; 07-20-2015 at 08:57 AM.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

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