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Thread: Did God Create Government? Of course not.

  1. #1

    Did God Create Government? Of course not.


    Did God Create Government?

    Of course not, since He is love, says Paul Green.

    The Maiden Voyage of the State


    By Paul Green


    July 16, 2015


    Many ascribe to government the unique and exalted right to overrule and therefore to undermine the independent authority of all individuals and of all secondary institutions; of creating and enforcing new law; even of decreeing life and death at the whim of the current leader.


    In summary, they teach a divine approval for actions of violence or actions backed by the threat of violence, which would otherwise be unthinkable for ordinary, moral human beings subject to the laws of God. In effect, government is given a “007” moral license to kill; a “24/7” license to steal; and a “666” licence to number, monitor, register and regulate every aspect of life.


    Surely, such an enormous and momentous creation – one that would have a prevailing effect in so many areas of daily life – must have some point of inauguration? Particularly among those claiming to believe the Bible, it can hardly be satisfactory to just assume this belief in a “divine right of governments” because they exist as a fact of life in a fallen world…


    A simple search should quickly uncover that great day celebrating Heaven’s launch of a new and enormous ship, “The State” into the ocean of mankind. Books of theology and inspiration should be written about the event, analysing each aspect of a wonderful new and all powerful creation of God.


    But where is that moment to be found?


    And why are there innumerable books and theories based upon the assumption of that event having occurred, but none about the actual event?


    In fact, despite the theological gymnastics that many with letters after their name are well capable of; and despite the fact that they all insist that Romans 13, particularly the first verse, refers to a moment when government was created or “ordained” by God – there seems to have been little or no desire to ask when or where any such event took place.


    So then, we will work our own way forward – by asking that big question at key checkpoints in the Biblical history of mankind…


    Did God create government? And if so, then exactly where and when was the state as an institution “ordained” by God?


    To find the answer to that question, we must start at the very beginning…


    The Creation


    Perhaps, in theory, God could have created a group hierarchy, with wise master humans and humble servant humans. Together, as a group, they could have constituted a general resemblance or image of God.


    Outside of the group, a free human without the covering authority of a wiser master would have been “alienated” and unable to succeed without damaging themselves and the whole. The free person would have been rebellious, out of place and selfish – something “the whole” could not tolerate.


    Yet, if government was instituted in the beginning, there is certainly no mention of it in the relevant early chapters of Genesis. Indeed, a centralised group hierarchy is not a concept conveyed by the Genesis record at all, but rather by communism – and in fact, all forms of collectivism or statism.


    It is, nevertheless, an idea that came to prominence in recent times under a cloak of Christianity:


    The history of “Messianic Communism” is covered in some detail by the late, great economist Murray Rothbard in his two volume work, “An Austrian Perspective on the History of Economic Thought”. In it, Rothbard quotes a pamphlet issued by the Anabaptists of Munster, northern Germany in 1534:


    “For not only have we put all our belongings into a common pool under the care of deacons, and live from it according to our need; we praise God through Christ with one heart and mind and are eager to help one another with every kind of service.


    And accordingly, everything which has served the purposes of selfseeking and private property, such as buying and selling, working for money, taking interest and practising usury … or eating and drinking the sweat of the poor … and indeed everything which offends against love – all such things are abolished amongst us by the power of love and community.”


    Rothbard goes on to detail the reign of terror that was to follow under their leader, Jan Bockelson:


    “Bockelson assured his subjects that he and his court were only the advance guard of the new order; soon, they too would be living in the same millennial luxury. Under their new order, the people of Münster would forge outward, armed with God’s will, and conquer the entire world, exterminating the unrighteous, after which Jesus would return and they would all live in luxury and perfection. Equal communism with great luxury for all would then be achieved.


    Greater dissent meant, of course, greater terror, and King Bockelson’s reign of “love” intensified its intimidation and slaughter. As soon as he proclaimed the monarchy, the prophet Dusentschur announced a new divine revelation: all who persisted in disagreeing with or disobeying King Bockelson would be put to death, and their very memory blotted out.”


    The even more hard core, secular version of communism, which would later lead to the death of millions, was soon to follow in the footsteps of Messianic communism – by going just a little further down the same dark path.


    But in reality, collectivism plays no part in the creation record – and instead of creating a commune, God began with an individual. In creating this person, He began by establishing the most primary principle of human existence:


    “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness”


    The implications of that creative command should not be glossed over. It is not prideful to accept the love, value and honour that God has bestowed as a gift. According to that creative Word, each person is like a mirror image of God, albeit a limited one – a conscious eternal being of similar form and attributes, able to create, to envision, to think ahead, to hope, to believe, and most of all – because

    “God is love” – to love others as we do ourselves.


    Along with that likeness to God, came the capacity to make independent free will decisions, an unfathomable attribute which goes far beyond mere animal instinct. In the earthly realm at least, this amazing characteristic is unique to human beings, and it is directly related to another attribute bestowed at creation, one which is often translated “dominion” – and means to “rule absolutely or rigorously, to have controlling power over”.


    And so, of human beings, Genesis 1 bears witness that God also commanded:


    “…Let them have dominion …over all the earth”


    Accordingly, each human person has been given charge over all other things on earth – self government – with the notable implicit exception of each other. Another word for this dominion would be “sovereignty”. We are created from the beginning to be absolute “sovereign individuals” over our own affairs, on our own domain or portion of this earth, as an irrevocable and unconditional bestowal by the ultimate Sovereign, God.


    Conclusion


    Consider this:


    Any analysis of human behaviour, theology, economics, civil order or any other sphere of life will be fundamentally flawed… if it does not start from the premise that human beings have been individually bestowed with this dominion on earth by God.

    Any understanding of the nature of God – in dealing with human beings and our affairs on this earth – will be flawed, if it does not start from the premise that God will always and fully uphold this principle of our dominion – along with all other principles established in the beginning, including inheritance.


    Through exercising this personal dominion, each person can freely choose to interact and submit to agreements with others – or with God. This therefore introduces the basic but secondary rights and jurisdictions inherent in marriage, family household, property, business and church.


    Outside of these principles, no party can rightfully exercise dominion over another, without violation of the original created order. On a small scale, we call those who do so anyway, “busybodies”. When the same behaviour grows in scale and in numbers, the word becomes “government”.


    Being a busybody, or “meddler in other people’s affairs” as one translation puts it, is ranked in the Bible alongside the offences of murder and theft, because such violations go hand in hand. It may not often be heard from church pulpits, but it is clearly written in 1 Peter 4:15:


    “…let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people’s matters“


    The Best of Paul Green

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/07/...te-government/

    Copyright © 2015 by LewRockwell.com. Permission to reprint in whole or in part is gladly granted, provided full credit and a live link are provided.



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  3. #2
    Nice piece. It would be out of God's character to be so malevolent as to purposely create an evil institution (like the State) run by Satan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  4. #3
    Everything that exists can be categorized in one of two ways: 1) God, 2) created by God.

    Government exists.

    Government is not God.

    Therefore, God created government.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Nice piece. It would be out of God's character to be so malevolent as to purposely create an evil institution (like the State) run by Satan.
    God created Satan.

  6. #5
    “…Let them have dominion …over all the earth”

    Accordingly, each human person has been given charge over all other things on earth – self government – with the notable implicit exception of each other. Another word for this dominion would be “sovereignty”. We are created from the beginning to be absolute “sovereign individuals” over our own affairs, on our own domain or portion of this earth, as an irrevocable and unconditional bestowal by the ultimate Sovereign, God.
    No. "self-government - with the notable implicit exception of each other". LOL.

    Sorry, but God's first act was to govern. The day he created Adam and Eve he laid down the law. They broke the law and he essentially pronounced a death sentence.

    Libertarians seem to want to equate government with illegal force. But God owns everything so when he punishes you for violating laws on his property he's within his right. He owns you and the ground you walk on. Man is not "free". Only God is free. Man is free so long as he obeys God's laws. Otherwise it's the rod.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    No. "self-government - with the notable implicit exception of each other". LOL.

    Sorry, but God's first act was to govern. The day he created Adam and Eve he laid down the law. They broke the law and he essentially pronounced a death sentence.

    Libertarians seem to want to equate government with illegal force. But God owns everything so when he punishes you for violating laws on his property he's within his right. He owns you and the ground you walk on. Man is not "free". Only God is free. Man is free so long as he obeys God's laws. Otherwise it's the rod.
    Sorry, firstish act was to father. The kids disobeyed and were/are punished. Original sin for all, forever, seems to be just a bit over the top. Chill dude.

    What can stand against the will of God?

    Nada.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    God created Satan.
    Satan rebelled against God. Satan was not created expressly to be malevolent, as far as I can prove with scripture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Sorry, firstish act was to father. The kids disobeyed and were/are punished. Original sin for all, forever, seems to be just a bit over the top. Chill dude.

    What can stand against the will of God?

    Nada.
    Well, first act was to create, but the "Fatherly" act was to mold them by teaching right? So the first lesson was of obedience. Anyway, I wasn't saying rules and punishment were His be all and end all, just challenging the idea that God isn't about rules and that "government" is Satan's domain, which is just ridiculous.

    I'm chill, for realz.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    ...

    Libertarians seem to want to equate government with illegal force. But God owns everything so when he punishes you for violating laws on his property he's within his right. He owns you and the ground you walk on. Man is not "free". Only God is free. Man is free so long as he obeys God's laws. Otherwise it's the rod.
    With libertarianism, ownership can always be relinquished, however arrived at.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    Well, first act was to create, but the "Fatherly" act was to mold them by teaching right? So the first lesson was of obedience. Anyway, I wasn't saying rules and punishment were His be all and end all, just challenging the idea that God isn't about rules and that "government" is Satan's domain, which is just ridiculous.

    I'm chill, for realz.
    Not according to the bible.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1 John, 5:19
    We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
    All governments and Statist powers are satanic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    God created Satan.
    God created ticks that use their God-given powers to hunt you down, suck your vital fluids, and for no reason inject you with spirochetes, which God also created, that burrow into your brain and destroy it. Isn't love wonderful!
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    Well, first act was to create, but the "Fatherly" act was to mold them by teaching right? So the first lesson was of obedience. Anyway, I wasn't saying rules and punishment were His be all and end all, just challenging the idea that God isn't about rules and that "government" is Satan's domain, which is just ridiculous.

    I'm chill, for realz.
    You weren't the target of the "Chill dude" comment.


    A plethora of scriptural evidence exists to confirm the above conclusion that Satan is in control of human governments and all worldly authority. For starters:

    1 John 5:19: We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of Satan.


    According to John, the world is under the control of Satan, just as Satan himself claimed during Jesus’ temptation.


    A constant theme throughout the New Testament is the warning against becoming too involved with Satan’s world. The earthly world is identified as Satan’s realm, while Christians are called to reject the world and follow God. The following are just a couple of such passages:


    James 4:4-7: You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God… Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.


    1 John 2:15-17: Do not love the world or anything in the world… For everything in the world… comes not from the Father but from the world…


    Rather than following earthly authority, that authority which comes from Satan, Christians are called upon to follow God’s authority, and the authority of the teachings of God’s son, Jesus.

    You're up.

  15. #13
    God gave oral laws to Adam and Eve. God codified laws in the Ten Commandments. God made man in His own image. He instructed prophets and preachers to execute the laws of His Church. Man makes other laws. God thus made government but gave men free will to chose their government on Earth. God is the government in Heaven.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Not according to the bible. All governments and Statist powers are satanic.
    the "world" connotation must be understood.

    I can play scripture cherry-pick game too.

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Satan rebelled against God. Satan was not created expressly to be malevolent, as far as I can prove with scripture.
    Did Satan rebelling come as a surprise to God?

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Did Satan rebelling come as a surprise to God?
    Omniscience has it's benefits.

    Does anything ever come as a surprise to God?



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Omniscience has it's benefits.

    Does anything ever come as a surprise to God?
    Right. And since God could have created any world with any outcome, yet chose to create this one (knowing the storyline and outcome), He must of have had a purpose for all the evil that He intended.

    If you believe in omniscience, logic forces you into believing in total predestination.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Right. And since God could have created any world with any outcome, yet chose to create this one (knowing the storyline and outcome), He must of have had a purpose for all the evil that He intended.

    If you believe in omniscience, logic forces you into believing in total predestination.
    Logic, as we understand it, breaks down in the worlds of quantum mechanics. Not all logic is truth. Not all truth is logical.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Satan rebelled against God. Satan was not created expressly to be malevolent, as far as I can prove with scripture.
    I'd love for you to prove any of that with scripture.

    I also believe Satan rebelled against God. But however it was that that happened, Satan was acting according to the nature God created him to have in the circumstances God placed him. It wasn't like God's creation malfunctioned.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    God created ticks that use their God-given powers to hunt you down, suck your vital fluids, and for no reason inject you with spirochetes, which God also created, that burrow into your brain and destroy it. Isn't love wonderful!
    All true, except for "for no reason."

  24. #21
    Originally Posted by erowe1
    God created Satan.
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Satan rebelled against God. Satan was not created expressly to be malevolent, as far as I can prove with scripture.
    Exactly so. A being created to serve God rebelled against Him. That being had another name and purpose.
    God did not create Satan. Satan became Satan when he rebelled.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I'd love for you to prove any of that with scripture.

    I also believe Satan rebelled against God. But however it was that that happened, Satan was acting according to the nature God created him to have in the circumstances God placed him. It wasn't like God's creation malfunctioned.
    How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God [angels]; I will also sit [rule] on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north [God's government]; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High." Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit. (Isaiah 14:12-15)
    Pretty succinct tl;dr version, IMO:
    “Thou wast created.” Ezekiel 28:13, 15. “Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth.” Ezekiel 28:14. “Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty … every precious stone was thy covering … the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. … Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.” Ezekiel 28:12-15.
    Lucifer was created by God, as were all other angels (Ephesians 3:9). Lucifer was a “covering” cherub, or angel. There was one great angel that stands on the left side of God’s throne and another on the right (Psalms 99:1). Lucifer was one of those highly exalted angel leaders. Lucifer’s beauty was flawless and breathtaking. His wisdom was perfect. His brightness was awe-inspiring. Ezekiel 28:13 seems to indicate that his throat was specially prepared to make him an outstanding musician. Some think he led the angelic choir.
    “Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness.” Ezekiel 28:17. “For thou hast said in thine heart, … I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: … I will be like the most High.” Isaiah 14:13, 14.
    Pride, jealousy, discontent, and self-exaltation arose in his life. Lucifer decided to attempt to unseat God and then demand that all worship him.
    “And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Revelation 12:7-9.
    Lucifer won the support of one-third of the angels (Revelation 12:3, 4) and caused an insurrection in heaven. God had no choice but to oust Lucifer and his angels. This was the greatest battle, by far, ever fought. Lucifer’s aim was to usurp God’s throne, even if it might eventually lead to murder (John 8:44). After his expulsion from heaven, Lucifer was called Satan (adversary) and devil (slanderer), and his angels were called demons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    All true, except for "for no reason."
    Let me guess, only God knows the reason?
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Exactly so. A being created to serve God rebelled against Him. That being had another name and purpose.
    God did not create Satan. Satan became Satan when he rebelled.
    Even as a rebel, he still serves God. He may not like it. But in everything he does he is a tool accomplishing God's ends.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Let me guess, only God knows the reason?
    I'm not in any position to be able to say if anyone other than God knows it (except that I won't claim I know it). But at the very least, yes, God himself does know. And even in cases where nobody else knows, he still does.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Pretty succinct tl;dr version, IMO:
    Neither of those passages have the word "Satan" in them. They might be about Satan. But how do you really know they are?

    And even if they are, we're still left with the fact that Satan, in doing what those passages describe, did exactly what was God's plan for him to do all along. God didn't mess up and create a malfunctioning creation.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I'm not in any position to be able to say if anyone other than God knows it (except that I won't claim I know it). But at the very least, yes, God himself does know. And even in cases where nobody else knows, he still does.
    If you can't know God's motivation when he creates something horrible like Lyme disease, how can you claim to know that His pleasant creations arise out of love?
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  32. #28
    Nobody's perfect.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

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    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    If you can't know God's motivation when he creates something horrible like Lyme disease, how can you claim to know that His pleasant creations arise out of love?
    Because God is good. You know this already, or else you wouldn't have a standard of goodness according to which you could call Lyme Disease horrible.

    It would be foolish and arrogant for any of us to pretend to know exactly what his purpose for any given thing is.
    Last edited by erowe1; 07-17-2015 at 04:58 PM.

  34. #30
    [QUOTE=erowe1;5925367]Neither of those passages have the word "Satan" in them. They might be about Satan. But how do you really know they are?

    Re-read the post.
    After his expulsion from heaven, Lucifer was called Satan (adversary) and devil (slanderer), and his angels were called demons.
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    And even if they are, we're still left with the fact that Satan, in doing what those passages describe, did exactly what was God's plan for him to do all along. God didn't mess up and create a malfunctioning creation.
    No he didn't-and that's the point. I don't accept the claim or implication that God is malevolent and/or intended Satan to rebel. (Lucifer did that with his free will) How do you know God preordained ("planned", if you prefer) Lucifer's rebellion? If God is love (1 John 4:8), why intentionally cause the rebellion?
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

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