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The Voluntary Exchange Podcast
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain"
"I want to be President, not because I want to run your lives. I don't want to run the economy, and I don't want to run the world. I want to be President to restore liberty."
"The use of force to impose morality is itself immoral, and generosity with others' money is still theft"
"My name is George. I'm unemployed and live with my parents."
The Voluntary Exchange Podcast
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain"
"I want to be President, not because I want to run your lives. I don't want to run the economy, and I don't want to run the world. I want to be President to restore liberty."
"The use of force to impose morality is itself immoral, and generosity with others' money is still theft"
"My name is George. I'm unemployed and live with my parents."
The Voluntary Exchange Podcast
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain"
"I want to be President, not because I want to run your lives. I don't want to run the economy, and I don't want to run the world. I want to be President to restore liberty."
"The use of force to impose morality is itself immoral, and generosity with others' money is still theft"
"My name is George. I'm unemployed and live with my parents."
He actually is not voting to renege on a deal. The deal has not been made yet, since it has to be voted on by Congress. Obama I'm sure makes a lot of deals we would like to renege on. I don't fault Rand for disagreeing with the deal, I just find his excuses sad and intellectually lazy.
The Voluntary Exchange Podcast
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain"
"I want to be President, not because I want to run your lives. I don't want to run the economy, and I don't want to run the world. I want to be President to restore liberty."
"The use of force to impose morality is itself immoral, and generosity with others' money is still theft"
"My name is George. I'm unemployed and live with my parents."
The Israel lobby has a very strong interest in not getting blown off the face of the world. I think Rand is doing a great job trying to keep the match out of the tinderbox here.
I really believe we can't let Iran get nukes. They could easily pass it off to an anonymous terrorist group. If not now, then 50 years from now. Who knows what that region will look like in the course of time?
"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
Proponent of real science.
The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.
The Voluntary Exchange Podcast
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain"
"I want to be President, not because I want to run your lives. I don't want to run the economy, and I don't want to run the world. I want to be President to restore liberty."
"The use of force to impose morality is itself immoral, and generosity with others' money is still theft"
"My name is George. I'm unemployed and live with my parents."
So voting for the next president of a bought and paid for government is the only way to save America? It was like a "or the terrorists win" comment. Individuals can do more to change this nation through spreading knowledge positively than any election. I think some old guy from Texas told me that.
The Voluntary Exchange Podcast
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain"
"I want to be President, not because I want to run your lives. I don't want to run the economy, and I don't want to run the world. I want to be President to restore liberty."
"The use of force to impose morality is itself immoral, and generosity with others' money is still theft"
"My name is George. I'm unemployed and live with my parents."
For me, it's not so much an issue of whether he really supports the deal or not, it's that he's been wasting his time pandering to all the wrong people. He spends half his time attempting to build up his cred on the left, who are irrelevant if he doesn't win the nomination, and the other half trying to win over neocons, when they're the last people on earth who will ever vote for him. He's lost the trust of the general public, in the process. The only thing that's worked for him, so far, are the stands he takes against the NSA. But unfortunately, most Americans don't care enough about that for it to make much of a difference.
As far as I'm concerned, give the climate out there, he should have never attempted the run. I once heard him say that he wouldn't, unless he thought he had a chance of winning. By the time he announced, his chances had clearly been diminished. I would have rather he focused on the Senate instead, and used his "neutral" position to garner more influence among those in the race.
As best as I can figure, based on reading up on how the sanctions were put into place, this is individual countries (working together, called P5+1) passing legislation that impact only those individual country's economic ties with Iran. The UN sanctions and EU sanctions are a different set of sanctions and are not directly related to this "deal". Congress originally passed the sanctions that this "deal" would repeal, so our Congressional actions only affects US ties with Iran. The other countries involved in this "deal" are free to do as they wish and repeal sanctions regardless of what our Congress does. If those sanctions are lifted then those countries will use their clout in the UN and the EU to remove those sets of sanctions. The reports of the '60 day' window for Congress to decide whether to pass it is the same as the 60 day day window as provided by the passing of the TPA, implying that it's a treaty.Originally Posted by Danan
This is really complicated crap.
I'm in the camp that Rand's listed reasons for voting against it suck really bad, however if one understands that this same "plan" has been used repeatedly over the years to manufacture excuses to bomb/invade countries (Iraq is a prime example) then it's easy to see how voting against it could be an attempt to avoid giving that "excuse" yet again.
Last edited by devil21; 07-15-2015 at 02:55 PM.
"Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul
"We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book
There will likely never be a better time to run than right now. If he didn't run now, he would give up any gains from Ron Paul's run. Any mailing lists and campaign infrastructure would not be very helpful 8 to 12 years after Ron's last run. There is not an incumbent in 2016. Running for President is the best way to raise your profile and promote ideas. And not to mention the Senate is a graveyard. I don't even know the last time a two term or longer Senator won the Presidency if ever. This is likely going to be his best and only chance. The appeal of politicians is like a melting ice cube.
I just can't believe how myopic people are about this. The country could easily go another generation or more without a comparable libertarian candidate. A lot of the stuff people people whine about are votes that could go either way from a libertarian perspective. This Iran deal certainly is one of those.
His profile has diminished? Obviously that doesn't make sense. You don't hear other first term Senators like Tim Scott, Jeff Flake, Dean Heller, Mark Kirk mentioned even a fraction as much.
What issue aren't you sure on? I would say he approaches things from a pretty standard libertarian perspective. Some issues don't have an easy libertarian answer so you get a nuanced answer.
I had that sort of impression all along too originally -
but the text of the agreement/deal is in several pdf files at the bottom of the page at :
http://eeas.europa.eu/statements-eea...0714_01_en.htm
Only scanned them, but the last pdf gives insight into the role of the EU, the UN Security Council, and the United States from here on in,
some excerpts . . .
The Eurpoean Union will:
16.1. Terminate the provisions of Council Regulation (EU) No 267/2012 and suspend the corresponding provisions of Council Decision 2010/413/CFSP etc.The United States will:
17.1. Cease the application of the sanctions set forth in Sections 4.1 - 4.5 and 4.7 of Annex II, with the exception of Section 211(a) of the Iran Threat Reduction andSyria Human Rights Act of 2012 (TRA);
. . .
17.4. Terminate Executive Orders 13574, 13590, 13622, 13645 and Sections 5-7 and 15 of Executive Order 13628 as set forth in Section 4 of Annex II; and
. . .UN Security Council (will):
18.1. In accordance with the UN Security Council resolution endorsing this JCPOA, the provisions imposed in UN Security Council resolutions 1696 (2006), 1737(2006), 1747 (2007), 1803 (2008), 1835 (2008), 1929 (2010) and 2224 (2015)will be terminated subject to re-imposition in the event of significant nonperformance by Iran . . .D. Transition Day
19. Transition Day will occur 8 years from Adoption Day or . . .21. The United States will:
21.1. Seek such legislative action as may be appropriate to terminate, or modify to effectuate the termination of, the statutory sanctions set forth in Sections 4.1-4.5,4.7 and 4.9 of Annex II;I just hope Rand becomes the absolutely expert on this - and shows it in the precious few minutes he'll get to speak on this at the August 6 debate.E. UNSCR Termination Day
23. UNSCR (UN Security Council resolution) Termination Day will occur in accordance with the terms of the UN Security Council resolution endorsing the JCPOA, which is 10 years from Adoption Day, provided that the provisions of previous resolutions have not been reinstated.
24. On UNSCR Termination Day, the provisions and measures imposed in that resolution would terminate and the UN Security Council would no longer be seized of the Iran nuclear issue.
WOW us all on how much he knows about this - just like his Dad would do on just about every topic imho.
It will be Rand's Secretary of State that gets to follow through on all this, hopefully.
Last edited by Jan2017; 07-15-2015 at 03:52 PM.
He had that profile before he got in, but it's been downhill ever since he announced. The non-RPers out there, who used to defend him in article comments have been routinely slamming him as a flip-flopping neocon, for some time now. This has greatly exacerbated that. I'm still fine with most of his views, but he's made it too difficult to defend him. What am I suppose to say, when he straddles the fence on issues? "Oh, he doesn't really mean it." Why would people vote for someone, when they think he doesn't say what he means?
He can't sneak himself into the nomination. Especially not in a field so large. He needed to win hearts and minds, in order to grow his support.
I certainly could be wrong, seeing how convoluted this is, but I think those sections mean that if the individual countries pass the "deal" in their own countries then they are to then take those sections to their respective globalist (ugh!) bodies for enactment. The lynchpin is that the P5+1 can't act unilaterally on behalf of the entire EU, the entire UN, etc regarding sanctions imposed through resolutions by those full bodies. Obviously, the US Congress itself can't pass legislation that repeals UN resolutions on behalf of the entire UN....
This is a prime example of why globalist one-world government sucks. If Americans can't even get our own Congress to pass or fail laws based on our opinions (see: TPA) then how can we even begin to influence P5+1, UN, etc? We can't.
Last edited by devil21; 07-15-2015 at 04:53 PM.
"Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul
"We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book
All this back and forth has not changed the bottom line for Rand: to get elected as a somewhat less interventionist President than the other Republican contenders, he feels he needs to have interventionist cover to minimize the "weak on defense" or "weak on Iran" tagging the neocons will plague him with.
So, empty gesture time: Congress votes on the Iran deal in two months, and one or both GOP-controlled houses votes it down. Obarry vetoes Congress, meaning it requires a 2/3rds vote to override him. Congress fails to override the veto, and the Iran agreement prevails. By next year, it appears that Iran is complying with all aspects of the deal, as monitored by the P5+1 and IAEA.
Meaning, since the deal is going through anyway, Rand can freely oppose it now, vote against it, and thus have cover as being "tough on Iran" through the GOP primaries. Then he can say he supports the deal later, since by then there will be evidence Iran is in compliance. Bottom line substance: The agreement prevents or greatly delays war, Iran remains independent and unmeddled with, and Rand can embrace the non-interventionist outcome as the coast becomes clear.
-----Peace & Freedom, John Clifton-----
Blog: https://electclifton.wordpress.com/2...back-backlash/
Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter
Life, Liberty, Logic
Yeah, maybe. But if he says that I don't really see how he gets any support from hawkish conservatives for voting against the deal. It seems like libertarians would still be mad at him for voting against the deal, and hawkish Republicans would be mad at him for refusing to pledge to revoke the Iran deal.
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Last edited by wizardwatson; 07-16-2015 at 06:57 AM.
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6
also deleted
Last edited by wizardwatson; 07-16-2015 at 06:58 AM.
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6
Outside of economic issues, I''m honestly closer aligned to Obama than Rand Paul's rhetoric of the past couple years. What a serious disappointment.
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