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Exactly, this is not the issue to take a principled stance with. Supporters of the confederacy can still fly it in their house. As evident by the fact that the killer had the old flag of Sout Africa and Rhodesia which doesn't fly anywhere. Taking it down from the state house wouldn't kill from the minds of the public who care about things like this.
+rep when I get to my home computer.
It won't be long until they call to disinter the graves of the Confederate soldiers. How dare they take up sacred American soil! Why, their very presence is an insult to the Northerners that lay beside them that fought for the express purpose of abolishing slavery! Dig them up!
Once again to be on the right side of politics Rand chooses to be on the wrong side of truth. There were other things he could have said or at least qualified that it's a symbol "to some". But no. A little lie here, a little lie there. The Lord doesn't care about your campaign. Whether you win or lose is up to him anyway. Good intentions are not an excuse for lying.
But whatevs, clearly as has been shown on this thread and others in the past I am in the minority on this lying to get ahead strategy.
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6
Defending the right to use a symbol that makes most people think you are unintelligent and racist. Why aren't hindu's defending the nazi symbol? Just retire it already.
I guess I see now that there is a strong bond people have with the symbol (and I know for the most part that's not a racist thing) that I can't relate with. More evidence, to me, that one should not allow personal identity to be defined by a symbol, because symbols change. Same philosophy that leads me to not have tattoos I guess.
I see the reasonable arguments on both sides, and I do think it's a pain and a shame that communication among people isn't better, and so symbols have to be retired. Tea Party is a good example. It sucks! But we just have to adapt.
I'm a moderator, and I'm glad to help. But I'm an individual -- my words come from me. Any idiocy within should reflect on me, not Ron Paul, and not Ron Paul Forums.
Also banned at Sears, though I have never seen confederate merchandise at Sears.
It wouldn't surprise me if buying this stuff will put you on some kind of government "list". Makes me want to run out and buy a confederate flag.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/22/politi...outh-carolina/
TOTAL BLOWBACK!
These guys must be really happy right now...
http://www.rebelstore.com/confederateflags.html
Please allow a few extra days for delivery until we can get caught up - We appreciate your support during this terribly sad time while the intolerant and the mean spirited uneducated attack our proud southern heritage with a vengeance.
They sell a damn nice 3'x5' flag for $9. Sounds very heavy duty and well made.
-t
Last edited by tangent4ronpaul; 06-23-2015 at 12:11 PM.
I was married to a Hindu, and they do defend it. It's marked my doorway and it's present on their temples. I've had the "Swastika" in my house.
It's meaning predates Hitler's crapping on it. And now the Babylonians have succeeded in crapping on the confederate flag calling it what it is not. Letting this flag fall to this charade isn't bad because this flag is falling but because it raises Stars and Stripes to a height it does not deserve. It bestows honor on a people that do not deserve it.
In short, the truth, already mostly hidden, is being replaced by an even uglier lie. America died, and now they are disposing of the body. Plain and simple.
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Had Paul or any of the GOP contenders said nothing, it could easily be interpreted as having no problem with the flag and its associations. But saying something against the flag has those in favor of states rights in such in a hissy fit. A no win scenario.
If it was a symbol of racism then people wouldn't have kept it on the government property. What about Mississippi?
Letting this flag fall because it's "racist" legitimizes this false narrative that white people are racist.
You all have it backwards. Letting the flag fall doesn't mean "See we're not racist." It means, "You're right, we are racist."
Dylann wins.
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6
Fine, how about the confusing U.S flag? They won't touch that because they are politicians, you know it and I know it. And that's fine, I don't expect them to. But I'm not going to get out my pom poms and start cheering over some dumb statements they put out.
If their 'excellent' statements actually help them with some people more than it hurts them with others, then I guess its all good. But the PC game doesn't generally work that way.
If not on some list it will be found during any criminal investigation and used as an example of being of racist character. We have probable cause considering his purchase history.
Blowback came to my mind with all the over hyped racial social engineering propaganda going to far. I was thinking in the days prior that some nut would snap because of it and kill minority types or gay-transgender. If I were a conspiracy theorist it almost seems that was the intention since Dylan Roof is the gift that keeps giving for the establishment.
Last edited by kahless; 06-23-2015 at 12:30 PM.
* See my visitor message area for caveats related to my posting history here.
* Also, I have effectively retired from all social media including posting here and are basically opting out of anything to do with national politics or this country on federal or state level and rather focusing locally. I may stop by from time to time to discuss philosophy on a general level related to Libertarian schools of thought and application in the real world.
You're making the moral case, which is, of course, what abolutionists were making as well.
I'm simply stating the legal case, and what it was based on, which is really very simple:
"Your own court said these slaves are our property. You are now making rules that will limit what I can do with my property and causing me finanacial harm."
How much better everybody would have been if the whole wretched system had never been introduced here in the first place.
Racial animosity, slavery, and its lingering effects have torn this country apart numerous times in the past and it appears that it will continue in the future, no matter what capitulations are agreed to.
And while I have taken issue with some of Rand's "weak sauce" positions in the past, there's not a damn thing he could have done in this situation, where you now have a whirling vortex of doom of media and talking heads all spun up and out of control, but to make the statement he did.
Might as well have been King Canute giving orders to the tide as to try and stand up to a full blown, F5, media frenzy.
If I was anywhere near Charleston, I'd organize a trip to the capitol building, grab a bullhorn, call the media, and start burning US flags.
I would say something like this:
This is the flag that committed genocide on the original inhabitants of this land.
This is the flag that originally condoned and protected slavery.
This is the flag that made war on its neighbors and took their land.
This is the flag that told women they could not vote.
This is the flag that imprisoned millions and ruined millions of lives because those people had the wrong plants in their possession.
This is the flag that confiscated the property of one race living here and threw them into concentration camps.
This is the only flag in the history of the world to use nuclear weapons in anger.
This is the flag that has invaded the world to stamp out a perceived evil, time and time again, only to bring greater evil.
Whatever evils that other flag committed, those evils were brief, a long time ago, and small in comparison to what has been done by THIS flag.
There are no crimes against people.
There are only crimes against the state.
And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.
I don't see that the level of confusion is anywhere near the level of the confederate flag, so I don't think it's a fair comparison. But the problem is the same - reduce a philosophy to a symbol, and that symbol can be co-opted. It's only a full understanding of the subject that renders the learner immune to that problem.
Maybe you missed it, I don't think it's a PC game at all. The confederate flag means racism to practically everyone who doesn't identify personally with it, and some of those who do.They won't touch that because they are politicians, you know it and I know it. And that's fine, I don't expect them to. But I'm not going to get out my pom poms and start cheering over some dumb statements they put out.
If their 'excellent' statements actually help them with some people more than it hurts them with others, then I guess its all good. But the PC game doesn't generally work that way.
I don't see how it's productive to get mired in a rebellious attempt to defend the symbol, that's a lost battle. Defend the philosophy that it should represent.
I'm a moderator, and I'm glad to help. But I'm an individual -- my words come from me. Any idiocy within should reflect on me, not Ron Paul, and not Ron Paul Forums.
We should defend the original meanings of symbols.
We shouldn't stop using the word capitalism because other people make them mean corporatism, etc. Every time they decide to mess up the meaning of a word, we should come up with another? Insanity.
My father's side of the family has a fairly extensive history of Copperhead politics (aka Northern anti-Civil War political thinkers, largely democrats at the time) and I'm generally sympathetic to the south regarding this issue, but this is a matter of inevitability. Rationality and historicity are all but gone from the public narrative, and frankly speaking, this is the case because people don't want to put in the effort to understand the actual history behind the civil war. Not only about how the so-called "union" essentially burned down entire cities in the name of preserving "the union", and racist Abe Lincoln's whole scheme to ship every black person to Liberia, but also how poor immigrants fresh off the boat were used as cannon fodder in order to accomplish it.
The cure to this problem is home-schooling, and until I hear Rand Paul join in with the Fascists trying to force people into government institutions as opposed to having their choice of where their children are schooled, he has my support. Symbols are subservient to interpretation, and interpretation is the servant of education, so the name of the game here is education, not political martyrdom.
We should stop using the word capitalism because it was originally coined by Karl Marx and it carries a misleading perception that economic freedom is only about wealth and not about choice and benevolence. For the life of me, I have no idea why people still cleave to this poisonous word, let alone how it was that so-called liberty supporters ever took it up in the first place.
Last edited by hells_unicorn; 06-23-2015 at 12:47 PM.
No, you missed it. The media is asking every Republican Politician under the sun what they think of the flag. And as per usual, they feel the need to try to 'prove' to the media that they are not racist. These statements from the candidates are defensive. None of them are going to gain votes over this, but they feel they may lose something by not kissing up to the media.
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