Obama's SMUGNESS regarding the issue does NOT prove his innocence and only proves his GUILT. If he were innocent he would politely answer the question instead of resorting to NAME CALLING!Originally Posted by 69360
If there's no controversy, then why would Ted release his Canadian birth certificate? Why would his Harvard and Princeton colleagues feel the need to publish articles claiming that he is eligible? Why would Sean Hannity have to ask him about it? Also, in that interview, Cruz even says himself that there is "political chatter" over the issue. It's not about Cruz legitimizing us, it's about Cruz legitimizing his own eligibility and intentions of being in the 2016 presidential race.
You say his mother was an American citizen. What proof do you have of that? Despite that, what proof do you have that Teds' parents actually met the requirements to pass on US citizenship to him? There should be official documents to support this. you say these things, like "his mother was a citizen" or he's "eligible", as a matter of factually; but with what evidence or claims to you have to support your conclusion? Again, I stress, that the burden of proof is not on any of us though; it's on Ted Cruz. His purposefulness in avoiding the subject or releasing any form of evidence is suspicious in itself.
Why release the Canadian birth certificate only, and not any other document that would put the controversy to rest? You would think a Harvard lawyer would know better, and have these documents if he was a legal, active US citizen.
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He released his birth certificate because it lists his parents, and thus proves his American citizenship on account of his mother. He released that document because it is the only one that proves he was born an American. The Harvard and Princeton friends are there to make a completely separate argument- that anyone who is born an American (as Cruz was) is "natural born citizen". The other argument would be that even if you are born an American, you still aren't "natural born" unless you are born in the United States of America. By the latter argument, McCain, Goldwater, and George Romney would not have been eligible for the Presidency had they won. You can debate the arguments on the merits, but the political reality is the Supreme Court would never in a million years rule that somebody who acquired American citizenship automatically at birth is not "natural born".
In fact, SCOTUS recently brought this to light in a non-birther case:
Zivotofsky v. Kerry is a citizenship case over someone born in Jerusalem to US Citizen parents. His mother wants the place of birth listed on her son’s passport to be “Israel.” The United States does not recognize the sovereignty of Israel over the city of Jerusalem and refused the request. That’s the controversy.
Justice Clarence Thomas (!) in a concurring opinion implied something interesting, something that I have said myself in other words:… In order to establish a “uniform Rule of Naturalization,” Congress must be able to identify the categories of persons who are eligible for naturalization, along with the rules for that process. Congress thus has always regulated the “acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of American parents . . . in the exercise of the power conferred by the Constitution to establish a uniform rule of naturalization.” United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U. S. 649, 688 (1898) ; see also Miller v. Albright, 523 U. S. 420, 456 (1998) (Scalia, J., concurring in judgment) (recognizing that “Congress has the power to set the requirements for acquisition of citizenship by persons not born within the territory of the United States”). It has determined that children born abroad to U. S. parents, subject to some exceptions, are natural-born citizens who do not need to go through the naturalization process. 8 U. S. C. §§ 1401(c), (d), (g).more: http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/page/2/
Last edited by YesI'mALiberal; 06-23-2015 at 03:30 PM.
This is hopeless. Birthers gonna birther.
That is not the only way to prove his US citizenship. As a matter of fact, that is no way at all to prove your US citizenship. If Ted's parents wanted him to have US citizenship passed onto him at the time of his birth, then they would have filed for and received a 'Consular Report of Birth Abroad'. This or a US passport, are the only ways you can prove your US citizenship from birth abroad.
Maybe McCain, Goldwater, or Romney weren't eligible. I'm neither admitting nor denying that. I've never taken a position on that issue. However, they're not the ones running for President today. Cruz is. How many wrongs does it take make a right? 2, 3, 6?
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McCain was born in a Panamanian hospital on Panama soil - delivered by a Navy doctor - he is not native born.
Goldwater was born in Phoenix - although Arizona was a US Territory in 1909 . . . that is a different issue imho, and old man Romney I don't know anything about.
Cruz was born in Canada . . .
The US Supreme Court would only take up a case presented before it, but it already has prior rulings to nix Cruz as President or VP as not native born.
But most people will just ignore his ineligibility to take the oath of office, as does his description in this list of who will be the 45th President :
http://graphics.wsj.com/2016-candida...er/#/announced
Interesting description of candidate Rand Paul btw . . .
Sen. Rand Paul (R., Ky.) an ophthalmologist who was elected to the Senate in 2010, has challenged some of his party's traditional policy stances,
taking a more skeptical view of U.S. military interventions abroad than have many Republicans. He drew national attention in 2013 when he conducted a 13-hour filibuster to protest the administration's policy on the domestic use of drones. He has been trying to broaden the GOP coalition by reaching out to African-Americans, young people and others who have traditionally leaned Democratic. Mr. Paul is the son of former Rep. Ron Paul, the libertarian icon who ran multiple longshot campaigns for president.
Ted's parents did not have any say in whether "US Citizenship is passed on to him at the time of his birth". It was bestowed automatically, whether they waned it or not, according to US Statute, on account of his mother being a US Citizen who meets the statutory requirements.
As far as I can tell, Goldwater was eligible because he was born in Arizona, which at the time was an organized incorporated territory of the United States under the jurisdiction of the US.
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The Wong Kim Ark case is irrelevant to Ted Cruzs' situation, because the Wong Kim Ark case dealt with the citizenship of a person born in the US to subjects of the Emperor of China.
Ted Cruz was not born in the US, he was born in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Where Kim Wong Ark was born in San Francisco. The language of the opinion of this case infers that children born in the US to non-citizen parents attain US citizenship at birth. Wong Kim Ark may not have had to of gone through a naturalization process, but Ted Cruz would have. People born outside the US to US parents must meet certain requirements and go through a process with the State Dept. to retain their childs' US citizenship. The steps that Teds' parents would have had to of taken are essentially a Naturalization process. This may make Marco Rubio eligible, but it doesn't make Ted Cruz eligible.Syllabus
A child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States, by virtue of the first clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution,
All person born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
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If Teds' parents met certain requirements, and went through a process to retain his US citizenship, his claim to US citizenship would be evidenced by a 'Consular Report of Birth Abroad' (Form FS-240), Certification of Report of Birth (Form DS-1350), Certification of Birth Abroad (Form FS-545). Either of these documents, which Ted would have received through his naturalization process, are the only legal US documents to prove his parents met certain requirements and retained his US citizenship. These documents would make him a citizen, but not a "natural born US citizen". However Ted has failed to release any of these documents and relies solely on his Canadian birth certificate to prove his eligibility and citizenship status, which is a Canadian legal document and not a US legal document.
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You are simply wrong on the law. There is no "process" Ted Cruz had to go through. Under US Statute at the time of his birth, he was born an American Citizen on account of his mother. Period. You can have a separate argument about "being born an American" not equaling "natural born American" but the argument you are advancing is pure nonsense. There has never been a time in Ted Cruz's life when he was not a US Citizen under American law.
According to the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services website; Ted Cruz or someone born abroad to US parents "may qualify" for Naturalization. The website says:
http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/...naturalization
http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/...naturalization"Your child may qualify for naturalization if you are a U.S. citizen, the child was born outside the U.S., the child is currently residing outside the U.S., and all other eligibility requirements are met. Visit our Citizenship Through Parents page for more information."
If he is a citizen; he's a citizen by statute, naturalized at or after birth.
Last edited by notsure; 08-03-2015 at 01:14 AM.
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Cruz, Jindal, Rubio & Obama are all in the same camp; none are natural born citizens. It's not the same as being a naturalized citizen. Natural born means your father (parents) is born in that country and the child is as well. None of them are constitutionally eligible for president of the United States.
The birthers made the wrong case. The fact that his dad wasn't born in the United Stares means Obama is not a natural born citizen, regardless of the nation in which he was born.
Naturalization and natural born aren't the same thing.
NO, it doesn't. Countless lawsuits have been filed making that argument and they have ALL failed. If you are born in the United States (Obama, Jindal, Rubio), you are a Natural Born Citizen*. Period. It doesn't matter what citizenship either or both of your parents had or didn't have. You are welcome to present any court case or precedent of a disqualified candidate to support your claim. And don't even bother with that moldy, irrelevant aside musing in Minor vs. Happersett; that thing has been beaten down more often than the Washington Generals.
And as for Cruz - it is less certain, but if you are born a citizen overseas (via statute) as Cruz was, you are generally held to be a Natural Born Citizen as well.
* not including children of foreign diplomats or occupying troops, for the sticklers.
Do you have a copy of Obama's college records? I hear he got a scholarship for foreign students.
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No, I don't. Do you? Please post.
The questions regarding Cruz's eligibility and proof of his US citizenship are separate issues, but they do intersect at some point. Isn't it odd that Cruz would only release his Canadian birth certificate and not release any legal US documents to prove his claim to citizenship?
I'm not sure how you can say children born abroad to US citizen parent(s) do not go through a process to "retain" or "declare" their US citizenship? I've cited .gov websites here, and can link to more if you like, that say the parents of these children must contact the US consulate to "claim" their childs' US citizenship and must have their request for citizenship approved by the State Dept.; and in return the child will receive a form that documents their US citizenship. Ted Cruz has not provided this "proof of citizenship", with either a Form FS-240 or Form DS-1350, or anything similar.
http://travel.state.gov/content/pass...rds/birth.html
Furthermore, whether you believe this process to be a form of Naturalization or not, it is by Naturalization Laws which Ted Cruz (or others born abroad to US citizen parent(s)) derive US citizenship. Therefore, Ted Cruz can only be a citizen by acts of naturalization determined by Congress.The child’s parents should contact the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate to apply for a Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America (CRBA) to document that the child is a U.S. citizen. If the U.S. embassy or consulate determines that the child acquired U.S. citizenship at birth, a consular officer will approve the CRBA application and the Department of State will issue a CRBA, also called a Form FS-240, in the child’s name.
Parents of a child born abroad to a U.S. citizen or citizens should apply for a CRBA and/or a U.S. passport for the child as soon as possible. Failure to promptly document a child who meets the statutory requirements for acquiring U.S. citizenship at birth may cause problems for the parents and the child when attempting to establish the child’s U.S. citizenship and eligibility for the rights and benefits of U.S. citizenship, including entry into the United States.
Last edited by notsure; 08-03-2015 at 01:27 AM.
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I'm not sure if Teds' parents would have gone through this exact same process, but they would have gone through something similar to "register" his birth with the State Dept. and/or "retain", "claim", or "declare" his US citizenship.
http://canada.usembassy.gov/consular...th-abroad.html
The U.S. Embassy and Consulates in Canada accept applications for Consular Reports of Birth Abroad (CRBA) for children under 18 born in Canada or elsewhere outside the United States; and currently residing in Canada.
...
Applications for Consular Reports of Birth Abroad require the parent's and the child's personal appearance at a U.S. consulate or embassy.
...
A list of appropriate documents that can be presented to prove the child's claim to U.S. citizenship is included in the instructions on the back of the DS-11 passport application.
Checklist.
...
1. Child's official provincial birth record, showing complete information on the parents.
Note: Some posts can only accept an original Registration of Live Birth bearing the impression seal of the Vital Statistics office. This record is kept on file with Vital Statistics and a certified photocopy bearing the impression seal of the office can be issued. This document tells us whether there have been any amendments to the record. The child's certificate of birth is not always acceptable. Please refer to your "post specific" instructions when you receive your application forms, for acceptable birth record instructions.
2. Evidence of U.S. Citizenship of Parent(s) at Time of the Child's Birth.
U.S. Passport; Certificate of Citizenship/Naturalization; Consular Report of Birth Abroad; or a U.S. Birth Certificate bearing the impression seal of the Vital Records Office and the date of filing.
3. Proof of parents' identity: Photo ID.
4. Child's ID (showing the child’s full name and date of birth (i.e., U.S. passport, health care card, student I.D., or school report card). If the child already has a U.S. Passport, it must be signed by the parent. The Social Security Administration does not accept "Foreign" passports.
5. Previous CRBAs for other children in the family.
6. Original civil marriage certificate of parents.
7. Documentary evidence of termination of any previous marriages of either parent (i.e. divorce decree, death certificate, etc.), if applicable.
8. In some cases the U.S. citizen parent may be asked to complete an Affidavit of Parentage and Physical Presence at the time of Application.
9. Canadian Immigration Record of Parent(s), showing original entry date into Canada.
10. Evidence of physical presence of parent(s) in the U.S.
Some examples of evidence of physical presence may include accredited school and university transcripts, employment records, utility bills, etc. Acceptance of this evidence will be at the discretion of the consular officer, and depending on the circumstances, the consular officer may ask for additional material.
11. Complete Form DS-2029 (50KB PDF). Do not sign.
12. Complete Application for a Social Security Number (Form SS-5-FS).
13. If you wish to apply for the child's passport, please refer to this link.
14. Fees: US$100 for the Report of Birth. If you also wish to apply for a passport, that fee is US$105 for a five-year passport for persons under the age of 16 or $135 for children over age 16. Payment may be made by cash, money order or credit card. Personal checks cannot be accepted.
Documentation
Please note that all documents submitted must be original records, bearing the official seal of the issuing authority. Copies of documents certified by notaries cannot be accepted.
Last edited by notsure; 08-03-2015 at 01:28 AM.
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Really, I think from every thing I've seen so far, I'd be more inclined to agree with you on the first part of your comments. Born on US soil = Natural Born Citizen. As for Obama, whether or not that was really his BC that was released is another topic completely. As for the the second part of your comments, regarding Cruz; even the Katyal & Clement piece that the Cruz campaign has been referring media inquiries regarding his eligibility to, says that this is false.
http://harvardlawreview.org/2015/03/...-born-citizen/
Any claim to US citizenship Ted Cruz has is derived from statutes of the US Nationalization Laws. The distinction seems to have been clearly made by differences in the 1790 and 1795 Laws. Where the granting of "Natural Born Citizenship" was amended to read as the granting of only "citizenship". Any person not born within the soil and jurisdiction of the US derive their citizenship from statutes, and must process their birth with the State Dept. and meet certain requirements of US Naturalization Laws before being fully recognized as a US citizen. Children born abroad to US citizen parent(s) have to refer to these statutes to have US citizenship conferred to them, a hurdle most of those born on US soil do not have.The Constitution directly addresses the minimum qualifications necessary to serve as President. In addition to requiring thirty-five years of age and fourteen years of residency, the Constitution limits the presidency to “a natural born Citizen.” U.S. Const. art. II, § 1, cl. 5.
All the sources routinely used to interpret the Constitution confirm that the phrase “natural born Citizen” has a specific meaning: namely, someone who was a U.S. citizen at birth with no need to go through a naturalization proceeding at some later time. And Congress has made equally clear from the time of the framing of the Constitution to the current day that, subject to certain residency requirements on the parents, someone born to a U.S. citizen parent generally becomes a U.S. citizen without regard to whether the birth takes place in Canada, the Canal Zone, or the continental United States.
1790
1795
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You simply don't know what you are talking about on this issue. There are in fact many people born abroad who for a variety of reasons "may qualify for naturalization" under US statute but Ted Cruz is NOT one of those people. Ted was born a citizen under Sec. 301. [8 U.S.C. 1401].
A CRBA is a document that embassies hand out to parents that want to get passports for their babies. It is a form that makes life easier for government officials. It has no bearing on you actual citizenship or lack thereof. It is simply a bureaucratic time saver.
And those laws you refer to, that confer US citizenship to Ted, are Immigration and naturalization laws. Natural Born Citizens, born on US soil, do not have to look to immigration and naturalization laws to retain US citizenship; only naturalized citizens such as Ted Cruz.
The Administrative Appeals Office of US Citizenship and Immigration Services:
http://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/f...05_01E2309.pdf"When there is a claim of citizenship . . . one born abroad is presumed to be an alien and must go forward
with evidence to establish his claim to United States citizenship." Matter of Tijerina-Villarreal, 13 I&N Dec.
327, 330 (BIA 1969) (citations omitted). Absent discrepancies in the evidence, where a claim of derivative
citizenship has reasonable support, it will not be rejected. See Murphy v. INS, 54 F.3d 605 (9th Cir. 1995)
US Supreme Court in the matter of Rogers v Bellei:
Every person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof becomes at once a citizen of the United States, and needs no naturalization. A person born out of the jurisdiction of the United States can only become a citizen by being naturalized, either by treaty, as in the case of the annexation of foreign territory; or by authority of Congress, exercised either by declaring certain classes of persons to be citizens, as in the enactments conferring citizenship upon foreign-born children of citizens, or by enabling foreigners individually to become citizens by proceedings in the judicial tribunals, as in the ordinary provisions of the naturalization acts.""Persons not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States at the time of birth cannot become so afterwards, except by being naturalized, either individually, as by proceedings under the naturalization acts, or collectively, as by the force of a treaty by which foreign territory is acquired.Our National Legislature indulged the foreign-born child with presumptive citizenship, subject to subsequent satisfaction of a reasonable residence requirement, rather than to deny him citizenship outright, as concededly it had the power to do, and relegate the child, if he desired American citizenship, to the more arduous requirements of the usual naturalization process.https://supreme.justia.com/cases/fed.../815/case.html..[the first sentence of the Fourteenth Amendment] has not touched the acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of American parents; and has left that subject to be regulated, as it had always been, by Congress, in the exercise of the power conferred by the Constitution to establish an uniform rule of naturalization."
Thus, at long last, there emerged an express constitutional definition of citizenship. But it was one restricted to the combination of three factors, each and all significant: birth in the United States, naturalization in the United States, and subjection to the jurisdiction of the United States. The definition obviously did not apply to any acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of an American parent. That type, and any other not covered by the Fourteenth Amendment, was necessarily left to proper congressional action.
A CRBA, or form DS-1350, or any form of 'certificate of birth abroad', would merely be evidence that Cruz's mother met statutory requirements and was able to and did indeed retain US citizenship for her son, Ted; albeit a naturalized form of US citizenship. Ted Cruz has not provided us with any of these legal US documents. A mere Canadian birth certificate will not suffice as proof of US citizenship.
US Department of State - Bureau Consular Affairs
http://travel.state.gov/content/pass...rds/birth.htmlA child born abroad to a U.S. citizen parent or parents may acquire U.S. citizenship at birth if certain statutory requirements are met. The child’s parents should contact the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate to apply for a Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America (CRBA) to document that the child is a U.S. citizen. If the U.S. embassy or consulate determines that the child acquired U.S. citizenship at birth, a consular officer will approve the CRBA application and the Department of State will issue a CRBA, also called a Form FS-240, in the child’s name.
Parents of a child born abroad to a U.S. citizen or citizens should apply for a CRBA and/or a U.S. passport for the child as soon as possible. Failure to promptly document a child who meets the statutory requirements for acquiring U.S. citizenship at birth may cause problems for the parents and the child when attempting to establish the child’s U.S. citizenship and eligibility for the rights and benefits of U.S. citizenship, including entry into the United States. By law, U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States.
US State Dept.:
http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/...naturalizationYour child may qualify for naturalization if you are a U.S. citizen, the child was born outside the U.S., the child is currently residing outside the U.S., and all other eligibility requirements are met. Visit our Citizenship Through Parents page for more information.
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They don't anymore, thanks to an interpretation of the 14th Amendment that both Ron and Rand Paul feel is incorrect. But prior to the 14th Amendment, everyone got their citizenship via statute. So unless you are arguing that there were no natural born citizens prior to 1868 the distinction you are trying to draw is irrelevant.And those laws you refer to, that confer US citizenship to Ted, are Immigration and naturalization laws. Natural Born Citizens, born on US soil, do not have to look to immigration and naturalization laws to retain US citizenship; only naturalized citizens such as Ted Cruz.
If we knew nothing about his mother, then no, the birth certificate would not be enough. But we already know enough about his mother to know that she met the statutory requirement to automatically confer citizenship on any children she bore. You keep harping about that the DS-1350 but that is just an administrative form. Filling or not filing that form CAN NOT change ones inherent citizenship status. The factual circumstances of your birth and whether the prevailing law at the time considered you a citizen at birth are the only relevant factors.A CRBA, or form DS-1350, or any form of 'certificate of birth abroad', would merely be evidence that Cruz's mother met statutory requirements and was able to and did indeed retain US citizenship for her son, Ted; albeit a naturalized form of US citizenship. Ted Cruz has not provided us with any of these legal US documents. A mere Canadian birth certificate will not suffice as proof of US citizenship.
It is indisputable that Ted Cruz was an American citizen from the moment of his birth. An argument can still be made that being born an American is not sufficient to be considered "natural born", but that is a separate issue.
Born in Canada, strike one.
You do not need a passport to cross the US-Canada border. Until recently you didn't even need a photo ID, you could cross with just a birth certificate if crossing by land or sea.
That is incorrect. McCain was born at Coco Solo Naval Air Station in the Panama Canal Zone. At the time the Panama Canal Zone was territory of the United States. It was not foreign soil, it was a US Territory. Furthermore, Congress passed a law granting all persons born in the territory to at least one US parent natural born citizen status (much like the case with people born in other territories such as Puerto Rico)
The law granting automatic citizenship and retroactive citizenship to children born in the Canal Zone with at least one parent wasn't passed until John McCain was nearly one year old. So for the first few months of his life, he wasn't an American Citizen and therefore can not under any definition be considered "natural born".
That is also not true. Under the Naturalization Act of 1795 he was a citizen of the United States from birth being born of US citizen parents.
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