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Thread: Beyond Tribalism

  1. #1

    Beyond Tribalism

    ...I read a book recently entitled “Why did Jesus, Moses, the Buddha, and Mohammed Cross the Road?” It’s a book by American Christian social activist Brian McLaren about Christian identity in a multi-faith world, and I thought it was a very good book. Indeed, I it is one that I think almost everyone here would enjoy so long as they could get beyond the apparently irreverent title.

    The title, which most readers would appreciate is a play on a very ancient joke about chickens crossing roads, doesn’t really have a lot to do with the book as a whole. Even so, the author does begin by asking us to imagine what it would be like if these four characters did cross a road together.

    I appreciate that it is an entirely fanciful image. Even so, can we imagine what it would be like if Jesus, Moses, the Buddha, and Mohammed found themselves on one side of a road together, each preparing to cross? I think it impossible to imagine exactly what would happen but I think we can be very sure as to what would NOT happen. A fight would NOT break out!

    ...It is a fanciful scenario, but I imagine that if such a crossing were to take place these men might not only cross the road together but might then sit down and break bread together! They might discuss God and life at length and perhaps they would disagree with each other on some matters (indeed, I suspect that the Buddha might find himself constantly on the defensive) but I think we all know with complete confidence that any such discussion would take place in an environment of mutual respect and openness.

    The obvious question then that this scenario brings to mind is, ‘if we all know full well that Jesus, Moses, the Buddha and Mohammed would show respect to each other if they met, why do their followers have so much difficulty doing the same thing?’
    ‘Tribalism’ is the answer to that question, I believe.
    Tribalism is the great enemy of inter-faith dialogue. Indeed, I would suggest that tribalism is the greatest enemy that religion itself faces ~ not just Islam or Christianity or any particular religion but all religion.

    Throughout history, religion of every brand has shown a tendency to degenerate into tribalism, and every time religion degenerates into tribalism we find that instead of the signs of the presence of God we find intolerance, violence and war!

    ...Religious faith, properly conceived, is never simply a private affair. It always has a communal dimension. Our fellowship with like-minded worshippers and our common identity as a community of faith is as essential a part of Islam as it is of Christianity and of Judaism. Even so, I think we all recognise that our communal identity as a people of faith (the horizontal dimension) can only properly be built upon a genuine vertical axis where there is a real relationship with the Almighty.

    It is when we lose the relationship with Almighty God altogether but maintain our tribal identity that our faith degenerates into the kind of tribalism we see unfolding so tragically across our world...

    When tribalism is all you’ve got, religion degenerates into savagery. For those of us though who wish to build our tribal identity around a genuine relationship with God, the question that needs to be answered is ‘how should we relate to persons of other religious tribes?’ and this is the question that I want to devote the rest of my time to this evening ~ at least with regards to how Christians should behave...
    http://snippits-and-slappits.blogspo...d-muslims.html

    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle



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  3. #2
    This is a prudent point, moostraks, and thank you for sharing it. If there is one constant problem with Religion, its that it can be used as a means of excluding others and judging them on the surface and not discerning their hearts. It is a problem in the Orthodox Church, because of the claims it makes and the historically verifiable truths of their claims. People sin even in the Church! Tribalism is an unfortunate result.

    That is why it is important to teach and educate, and to come to others to their perspective level, in friendship, love, and eagerness to help.

    For we are not called to become a Jew or a Greek, but rather citizens of Heaven, and every one of them potential brothers and sisters.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  4. #3
    Moos, you might find this article interesting.

    https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/onbeh...e-never-heard/
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  5. #4
    Tribalism is just extended family, we have gone the progressive anti family route, look where its got us. And how can anyone think Jesus would show Mohammed respect? The money changers Jesus drove out of the Temple deserve more respect than a false prophet. Jesus told us we would know guys like Mohammed by their fruit. We see Mohammed's maggoty fruit.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Tribalism is just extended family, we have gone the progressive anti family route, look where its got us. And how can anyone think Jesus would show Mohammed respect? The money changers Jesus drove out of the Temple deserve more respect than a false prophet. Jesus told us we would know guys like Mohammed by their fruit. We see Mohammed's maggoty fruit.
    60% of Muslims in a poll showed sympathy with ISIS. You see the bad fruit destroy numbers much greater than their own when put in a position to be able to.

    This is why we must be careful with who we choose as our leaders and as prophets of God.
    Last edited by TER; 06-09-2015 at 10:51 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  7. #6
    I think the fundamental problem with the premise of this work is the assertion of a sort of "cosmopolitan outcome" between religions that teach contradictory principles and have a differing endgame. Periods of peace can result from a certain degree of toleration, but this usually only works when boundaries are clearly defined by a government that is either dispassionate about the existence of multiple religions (America), though this is not a stable model, or when the majority party does not feel directly threatened by the existence of a marginalized minority (Iran). It should be likewise noted that one of the earliest "tolerant" persons on the subject of religion was Genghis Khan, who claimed more lives with his political ambitions and that of his family than any religiously based war.

    I tend to believe that truth is singular, though there may be a degree of subjectivity regarding what accounts for sufficiently accepting it within a given context. However, the notion of Christians, Buddhists, Muslims and so on coexisting peacefully while sharing the same democratically elected government is a logical impossibility long-term, and I think the ongoing demographic evolution of America will bear this out, though I am by no means looking forward to where it will lead.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Tribalism is just extended family, we have gone the progressive anti family route, look where its got us. And how can anyone think Jesus would show Mohammed respect? The money changers Jesus drove out of the Temple deserve more respect than a false prophet. Jesus told us we would know guys like Mohammed by their fruit. We see Mohammed's maggoty fruit.
    Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    Jesus masterfully conversed with those who had a different perspective and challenged people to think, approaching them in a manner that related to their environment and understanding. As for fruits, the link addresses how religion is abused and Christianity is no different than the others.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    60% of Muslims in a poll showed sympathy with ISIS. You see the bad fruit destroy numbers much greater than their own when put in a position to be able to.

    This is why we must be careful with who we choose as our leaders and as prophets of God.
    CHRISTIANS MORE SUPPORTIVE OF TORTURE THAN NON-RELIGIOUS AMERICANS
    http://religiondispatches.org/christ...ous-americans/

    A new Washington Post/ABC News poll finds that Americans, by a 59-31% margin, believe that CIA “treatment of suspected terrorists” in detention was justified.

    A plurality deemed that “treatment” to be “torture,” by a 49-38% margin.

    Remarkably, the gap between torture supporters and opponents widens between voters who are Christian and those who are not religious. Just 39% of white evangelicals believe the CIA’s treatment of detainees amounted to torture, with 53% of white non-evangelical Protestants and 45% of white Catholics agreeing with that statement. Among the non-religious, though, 72% said the treatment amounted to torture. (The poll did not break down non-Christian religions in the results.)

    Sixty nine percent of white evangelicals believe the CIA treatment was justified, compared to just 20% who said it was not. (Those numbers, incidentally, roughly mirror the breakdown of Republican versus Democratic voters among white evangelicals.) A full three-quarters (75%) of white non-evangelical Protestants outnumber the 22% of their brethren in saying CIA treatment was justified. White Catholics believe the treatment was justified by a 66-23% margin.

    But a majority of non-religious adults, 53%, believe the CIA actions were not justified, with 41% of the non-religious saying the treatment was justified.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    I think the fundamental problem with the premise of this work is the assertion of a sort of "cosmopolitan outcome" between religions that teach contradictory principles and have a differing endgame. Periods of peace can result from a certain degree of toleration, but this usually only works when boundaries are clearly defined by a government that is either dispassionate about the existence of multiple religions (America), though this is not a stable model, or when the majority party does not feel directly threatened by the existence of a marginalized minority (Iran). It should be likewise noted that one of the earliest "tolerant" persons on the subject of religion was Genghis Khan, who claimed more lives with his political ambitions and that of his family than any religiously based war.

    I tend to believe that truth is singular, though there may be a degree of subjectivity regarding what accounts for sufficiently accepting it within a given context. However, the notion of Christians, Buddhists, Muslims and so on coexisting peacefully while sharing the same democratically elected government is a logical impossibility long-term, and I think the ongoing demographic evolution of America will bear this out, though I am by no means looking forward to where it will lead.
    Peace begins at the individual level, when the individual chooses to cease and desist forcing themselves upon those who are different. Religion is co-opted to use spiritual pressure through tribalism by the insecure or power hungry...
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Moos, you might find this article interesting.

    https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/onbeh...e-never-heard/
    I believe that the identity crisis of Christianity through so many splintering groups is likely because of the failure of the human element of the Church to have fully submitted itself to His Will (do unto others/love one another) and yet it all works out in the wash. It was inevitable and yet through such diversity, by submitting to Love at the individual level, one evidences the fruits of their faith.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    This is a prudent point, moostraks, and thank you for sharing it.
    Seconded.

    If there is one constant problem with Religion, its that it can be used as a means of excluding others and judging them on the surface and not discerning their hearts.
    Is it the role of Religion to discern someone's heart?
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    CHRISTIANS MORE SUPPORTIVE OF TORTURE THAN NON-RELIGIOUS AMERICANS
    http://religiondispatches.org/christ...ous-americans/
    Yes, an indicator of how far this country has decayed. BTW, take the same poll in a Muslim nation with an Orthodox Christian minority, and I wonder what numbers you will get then.
    Last edited by TER; 06-10-2015 at 06:31 AM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    I believe that the identity crisis of Christianity through so many splintering groups is likely because of the failure of the human element of the Church to have fully submitted itself to His Will (do unto others/love one another) and yet it all works out in the wash. It was inevitable and yet through such diversity, by submitting to Love at the individual level, one evidences the fruits of their faith.
    what works out in the wash? Because human weakness exists within religious faiths, therefore all religions fail the same, and therefore there is no true Church?
    Last edited by TER; 06-10-2015 at 06:35 AM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    what works out in the wash? Because human weakness exists within religious faiths, therefore all religions fail the same, and therefore there is no true Church?
    The fact that Love will conquer hate. The true Church being those who abide in Love and are known by their fruits...
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    Jesus masterfully conversed with those who had a different perspective and challenged people to think, approaching them in a manner that related to their environment and understanding
    And your point is? Jesus masterfully drove the money changers out of the temple. And called the pharisees a 'brood of vipers' and 'of your father the devil'. He would have done the same to Muhammad. Jesus didn't play nice with those who tried to lead his sheep away from truth. For reference:

    John 2:13 When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.
    Matthew 21:12 Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’[a] but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’
    Matthew 12:33

    “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.
    John 8:44

    44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    As for fruits, the link addresses how religion is abused and Christianity is no different than the others.
    The problem with Christians is when they do not obey the Bible, that's when fruits turn bad. The problem with Islam is the false teaching itself, which blatantly denies the power of Jesus Christ. Can a bad tree produce good fruit?
    Last edited by William Tell; 06-10-2015 at 08:25 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    Peace begins at the individual level, when the individual chooses to cease and desist forcing themselves upon those who are different. Religion is co-opted to use spiritual pressure through tribalism by the insecure or power hungry...
    I don't think you know what tribalism is. Tribalism is about tribes, families. Calling institutional religion tribalism doesn't make it so.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe






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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    The fact that Love will conquer hate. The true Church being those who abide in Love and are known by their fruits...
    I am happy to have found what I believe is the true Church, and the fruits are quite evident in the lives of the Saints and the enduring power and existence of its communion in Christ going to the beginning.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    I don't think you know what tribalism is. Tribalism is about tribes, families. Calling institutional religion tribalism doesn't make it so.
    tribalism
    noun trib·al·ism \-bə-ˌli-zəm\
    : loyalty to a tribe or other social group especially when combined with strong negative feelings for people outside the group

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tribalism

    HTH in the context of how the term is being applied wrt to religion being a social group.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    And your point is? Jesus masterfully drove the money changers out of the temple. And called the pharisees a 'brood of vipers' and 'of your father the devil'. He would have done the same to Muhammad. Jesus didn't play nice with those who tried to lead his sheep away from truth. For reference:

    The problem with Christians is when they do not obey the Bible, that's when fruits turn bad. The problem with Islam is the false teaching itself, which blatantly denies the power of Jesus Christ. Can a bad tree produce good fruit?
    The problem, imo, is with anyone who chooses self interest over Love. Love is accessible to anyone.

    Ephesians 4:31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

    Colossians 3:12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

    Luke 6:32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

    WRT my statement as to the masterful, persuasive nature of Jesus:

    ...Jesus was the incarnation of the Logos — whom theologians call the second person of the Trinity. As Christian philosopher and theologian Carl Henry and others have emphasized, the apostle John used the term logos to personalize the Greek view of the wisdom, logic, and rationality of the universe.1 Our English translations say, “In the beginning was the Word [Logos]” (John 1:1).2 Jesus embodies the rational communication (Word) of God’s truth. He is “full of grace and truth” (John 1:14). We should expect that God Incarnate would be a wise and reasonable person, however much He may cut against the grain of human presumption, pride, and prevarication. Jesus, moreover, was both divine and human. As a human, Jesus reasoned with other human beings. He did not run from a good argument on theology or ethics but engaged His hearers brilliantly.

    ...When we inspect Jesus’ mind in action in several familiar stories from the Gospels, we see that His thinking was sharp, clear, and cogent. Not only should we believe what He taught because He is our divine Master, but through hard work, prayer, and reliance on the Holy Spirit, we should also strive to emulate His intellectual virtues because we are called to walk as He walked (1 John 2:6).
    Presenting Jesus as a worthy thinker can be a powerful apologetic tool to unbelievers who wrongly assume that Christian belief is a matter of blind faith or irrational belief. If the founder of Christianity is a great thinker, His followers should never demean the human mind (Matt. 22:37–39; Rom. 12:1–2). In addition, Jesus’ strategies in argument can serve as a model for our own apologetic defense of the truth and rationality of Christianity, which I will discuss.

    ...Jesus’ aim in utilizing logic is not to win battles, but to achieve understanding or insight in his hearers…He presents matters in such a way that those who wish to know can find their way to, can come to, the appropriate conclusion as something they have discovered — whether or not it is something they particularly care for...
    http://www.equip.org/article/jesus-p...and-apologist/
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Tribalism is just extended family, we have gone the progressive anti family route, look where its got us. And how can anyone think Jesus would show Mohammed respect? The money changers Jesus drove out of the Temple deserve more respect than a false prophet. Jesus told us we would know guys like Mohammed by their fruit. We see Mohammed's maggoty fruit.
    I've seen people of all religions, races, sexes act and speak in a negative fashion. I've, also, seen people of all religions, races, sexes act and speak in a positive one. Where is the good fruit and bad fruit? If Christianity is the only tree that produces good fruit, what about people like Ghandi or other saints of other religions? To say one group or idea is the only way, or the only way to produce "good fruit", does the opposite of what any true religion should do. And that is to bring all people, of every path, together in peace, love, and harmony. People can disagree with each other with-out being physically or verbally violent.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by westkyle View Post
    I've seen people of all religions, races, sexes act and speak in a negative fashion. I've, also, seen people of all religions, races, sexes act and speak in a positive one. Where is the good fruit and bad fruit? If Christianity is the only tree that produces good fruit, what about people like Ghandi or other saints of other religions? To say one group or idea is the only way, or the only way to produce "good fruit", does the opposite of what any true religion should do. And that is to bring all people, of every path, together in peace, love, and harmony. People can disagree with each other with-out being physically or verbally violent.
    Many different religions produce good fruit, but only in so far as it is in the likeness of Christ in Whom alone mankind finds resurrection, salvation and eternal life. This is not because people made this to be the only way, but because God came into the world and revealed this to be the only way in the Person of Jesus Christ Who is the Only-begotten Son and incarnate Logos of the God of Creation. If Christians teach this and believe this, it is because the Lord came and did so first.

    BTW, I see you quote Aleister Crowely. Is he someone you admire? I don't know much about him, but I have heard some satanic and occult things referenced about him.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    BTW, I see you quote Aleister Crowely. Is he someone you admire? I don't know much about him, but I have heard some satanic and occult things referenced about him.
    Not just some things, Aleister Crowley was a hardened pagan and an advocate of reviving Moloch worship, including sacrifice of children. Much of the Thule-oriented aspects of modern paganism, including some practitioners in Hitler's inner circle, can be traced back to him.

  26. #23
    Muhammad promised to fight the infidels until they convert, pay the jizya tax or die, and also promised to kill all the Jews. Moses was pretty horrible too. Jesus and Buddha would've been perfectly peaceful if they met eachother. Simply declaring violent religious extremists and conquerors (like Moses and Muhammad) to be peaceful doesn't make them peaceful, and it 100% distorts the conflicts we see in the world today.
    Yours is the aim to make this grand country grander,
    This you will do, that's our strong, firm belief.
    Hail to the one we selected as commander,
    Hail to the President! Hail to the Chief!

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    I think the fundamental problem with the premise of this work is the assertion of a sort of "cosmopolitan outcome" between religions that teach contradictory principles and have a differing endgame. Periods of peace can result from a certain degree of toleration, but this usually only works when boundaries are clearly defined by a government that is either dispassionate about the existence of multiple religions (America), though this is not a stable model, or when the majority party does not feel directly threatened by the existence of a marginalized minority (Iran). It should be likewise noted that one of the earliest "tolerant" persons on the subject of religion was Genghis Khan, who claimed more lives with his political ambitions and that of his family than any religiously based war.

    I tend to believe that truth is singular, though there may be a degree of subjectivity regarding what accounts for sufficiently accepting it within a given context. However, the notion of Christians, Buddhists, Muslims and so on coexisting peacefully while sharing the same democratically elected government is a logical impossibility long-term, and I think the ongoing demographic evolution of America will bear this out, though I am by no means looking forward to where it will lead.
    I'm pissed about extremist Islam (which is probably most Muslims in the world today), but you should be much more optimistic about multiple religions coexisting in the US, including Islam. The US was built on the idea of all these different groups tolerating eachother and getting along, we practically invented reform Judaism, and we're inventing moderate Islam right now. This is the only country where you hear Muslims say "You know, the Hadith isn't really valid, it was 200 yrs after Muhammad died," which is INSANITY. That's 40% as insane as a Muslim saying the Quran isn't valid, that's like when reform Jews say the Torah is metaphorical (and therefore meaningless and irrelevant to reform Jews' lives). Seriously, every Muslim I've met is extremely nice and tolerant, and I complain about Islam and the Middle East more than anyone you know. We have some extremists here, but this is the country that will change Islam, and not from our wars.

    That being said, the Muslim Brotherhood, which promises to establish a global caliphate, owns 25%+ of US mosques via the North American Islamic Trust. And their Palestinian chapter (Hamas) promises to kill the Jews (quoting Muhammad in the Hadith). So there's that. Muslims are kindof like cops: even if most of them are good, 90% still efuse to condemn the bad, so nothing ever changes. So that's what we have to deal with.
    Last edited by OReich; 06-10-2015 at 07:42 PM.
    Yours is the aim to make this grand country grander,
    This you will do, that's our strong, firm belief.
    Hail to the one we selected as commander,
    Hail to the President! Hail to the Chief!



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  29. #25
    ////
    Last edited by ReformedObserver; 06-10-2015 at 09:23 PM.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by OReich View Post
    I'm pissed about extremist Islam (which is probably most Muslims in the world today), but you should be much more optimistic about multiple religions coexisting in the US, including Islam. The US was built on the idea of all these different groups tolerating eachother and getting along, we practically invented reform Judaism, and we're inventing moderate Islam right now. This is the only country where you hear Muslims say "You know, the Hadith isn't really valid, it was 200 yrs after Muhammad died," which is INSANITY. That's 40% as insane as a Muslim saying the Quran isn't valid, that's like when reform Jews say the Torah is metaphorical (and therefore meaningless and irrelevant to reform Jews' lives). Seriously, every Muslim I've met is extremely nice and tolerant, and I complain about Islam and the Middle East more than anyone you know. We have some extremists here, but this is the country that will change Islam, and not from our wars.

    That being said, the Muslim Brotherhood, which promises to establish a global caliphate, owns 25%+ of US mosques via the North American Islamic Trust. And their Palestinian chapter (Hamas) promises to kill the Jews (quoting Muhammad in the Hadith). So there's that. Muslims are kindof like cops: even if most of them are good, 90% still efuse to condemn the bad, so nothing ever changes. So that's what we have to deal with.
    The Roman Empire had a very similar accomplishment during the so-called "Pax Romana", and it collapsed under the weight of its own depravity. As much as I am not a fan of Islam, trying to manufacture a moderate counterfeit to pacify a population is a double-edged sword just begging to be pushed back and slice the wielder's face off. Furthermore, I took note recently that Barack Obama (an atheist, both in my opinion and that of Christopher Hitchens) has killed more non-combatants with his little drone toys than died in the entire Spanish Inquisition, so I fail to see what good trying to eliminate/modify religion to suit our needs is actually accomplished when America's own secular paganism rakes up similar body counts.

    I would just like to note, in case you are not aware, that I am a pretty heavily religious person myself, though of the Reformed Christian position, which dovetails with a sizable population of the original American Revolution, though my disposition also affords me a healthy degree of skepticism towards the post-19th century democratic socialism that generally pervades American culture.

    By the way, Senator Charles Schumer is a Reformed Jew. Trading the Torah for an American offshoot of Marxism is not exactly what I'd call a good accomplishment, quite the opposite actually.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post

    BTW, I see you quote Aleister Crowely. Is he someone you admire? I don't know much about him, but I have heard some satanic and occult things referenced about him.
    Black magic is not a myth. It is a totally unscientific and emotional form of magic, but it does get results— of an extremely temporary nature. The recoil upon those who practice it is terrific.
    It is like looking for an escape of gas with a lighted candle. As far as the search goes, there is little fear of failure!
    To practice black magic you have to violate every principle of science, decency, and intelligence. You must be obsessed with an insane idea of the importance of the petty object of your wretched and selfish desires.
    I have been accused of being a “black magician.” No more foolish statement was ever made about me. I despise the thing to such an extent that I can hardly believe in the existence of people so debased and idiotic as to practice it.
    Aleister Crowley

    Quick search popped up this quote. He looks to be quite the character who engaged in some shock tactics. After the nonsense I have seen by "religious" people, I can understand why. People believe what they want to believe about those they wish to demonize and reducing them to blathering about absurdities is quite fitting to the situation.

    The child sacrifice accusation supposedly stems from sex magic relating to masturbation, according to those who have debunked it. Seems more logical than he was a mass child murderer who was never brought to account especially in light of the above quote. Your mileage may vary as to what you choose to believe on the matter.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by OReich View Post
    I'm pissed about extremist Islam (which is probably most Muslims in the world today), but you should be much more optimistic about multiple religions coexisting in the US, including Islam. The US was built on the idea of all these different groups tolerating eachother and getting along, we practically invented reform Judaism, and we're inventing moderate Islam right now.
    Ideologies don't kill people; people kill people. Murder is murder, no matter the motivation. IRT "multiple religions", you are correct:



    Many of the British North American colonies that eventually formed the United States of America were settled in the seventeenth century by men and women, who, in the face of European persecution, refused to compromise passionately held religious convictions and fled Europe. The New England colonies, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Maryland were conceived and established "as plantations of religion." Some settlers who arrived in these areas came for secular motives--"to catch fish" as one New Englander put it--but the great majority left Europe to worship God in the way they believed to be correct. They enthusiastically supported the efforts of their leaders to create "a city on a hill" or a "holy experiment," whose success would prove that God's plan for his churches could be successfully realized in the American wilderness. Even colonies like Virginia, which were planned as commercial ventures, were led by entrepreneurs who considered themselves "militant Protestants" and who worked diligently to promote the prosperity of the church.

    The religious persecution that drove settlers from Europe to the British North American colonies sprang from the conviction, held by Protestants and Catholics alike, that uniformity of religion must exist in any given society. This conviction rested on the belief that there was one true religion and that it was the duty of the civil authorities to impose it, forcibly if necessary, in the interest of saving the souls of all citizens. Nonconformists could expect no mercy and might be executed as heretics. The dominance of the concept, denounced by Roger Williams as "inforced uniformity of religion," meant majority religious groups who controlled political power punished dissenters in their midst. In some areas Catholics persecuted Protestants, in others Protestants persecuted Catholics, and in still others Catholics and Protestants persecuted wayward coreligionists. Although England renounced religious persecution in 1689, it persisted on the European continent. Religious persecution, as observers in every century have commented, is often bloody and implacable and is remembered and resented for generations.
    The Founders had witnessed a period of bloodshed known collectively as The Wars of Religion in Europe, and recognized that the state should not commingle with religion, especially as America was a refuge for heretics.

    It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God.
    Thomas Jefferson
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    Aleister Crowley

    Quick search popped up this quote. He looks to be quite the character who engaged in some shock tactics. After the nonsense I have seen by "religious" people, I can understand why. People believe what they want to believe about those they wish to demonize and reducing them to blathering about absurdities is quite fitting to the situation.

    The child sacrifice accusation supposedly stems from sex magic relating to masturbation, according to those who have debunked it. Seems more logical than he was a mass child murderer who was never brought to account especially in light of the above quote. Your mileage may vary as to what you choose to believe on the matter.
    A quick google search does turn up a lot of negative things to say about him. Again, I haven't studied his life or writings to know much about him, but the quote in the sig above which first caught my eye does sound like something a Satanist would say (though, of course, one doesn't have to be a Satanist to say the same thing).
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    A quick google search does turn up a lot of negative things to say about him. Again, I haven't studied his life or writings to know much about him, but the quote in the sig above which first caught my eye does sound like something a Satanist would say (though, of course, one doesn't have to be a Satanist to say the same thing).
    Lol! Yeah, he made himself a lightening rod and thus it isn't too hard to find negative things being said about him. The mere mention of the practice of magic sends some folks into a froth. I found God in the natural world and look what has been said of my beliefs and practices.

    As for the other quote, meh. I suppose it is how you choose to take it. Since I am non-resistant, it is not something I would choose to state as my platform. Yet, how is it much different than:

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
    Or the non-aggression principle wrt rights of the individual and the right to self defense to protect said rights. As for what it has to do with Satanism, maybe you should elaborate on your knowlege of the subject and why those statements should be seen as somehow more particular to Satanists.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

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