The Anti Federalist Papers

[erowe1]

my bet is, that Engineer has never been a part of your job title.

It has. I have a bachelors degree in civil engineering from the University of Michigan and worked in that field for 2 years before changing careers, and then in a part-time capacity when I was a seminary student.

I can't make any sense out of your post though. Are you saying that 2 years is "much later," and that anyone who has ever been an engineer would know that?

[HVACTech]

It has. I have a bachelors degree in civil engineering from the University of Michigan and worked in that field for 2 years before changing careers, and then in a part-time capacity when I was a seminary student.

I can't make any sense out of your post though. Are you saying that 2 years is "much later," and that anyone who has ever been an engineer would know that?

something like that.
AF likes to refer to 1787.
THAT would be 3 years..

why did you chose 1789?
Near as I can tell, it was nearly 4 years. march of 1787 to late Dec of 1791.

IF. you know what a "civil engineer" is. then, OF COURSE you KNOW what the $#@! HVAC/R is. right?

does it get any more "civil" than that?

I KNOW how $#@! gets done dude.
I am a SENIOR, MASTER HVAC/R tech.

"civil engineering" is a groundskeeper dude.
right up there with "sanitation engineer"

[heavenlyboy34]

something like that.
AF likes to refer to 1787.
THAT would be 3 years..

why did you chose 1789?
Near as I can tell, it was nearly 4 years. march of 1787 to late Dec of 1791.

IF. you know what a "civil engineer" is. then, OF COURSE you KNOW what the $#@! HVAC/R is. right?

does it get any more "civil" than that?

I KNOW how $#@! gets done dude.
I am a SENIOR, MASTER HVAC/R tech.

"civil engineering" is a groundskeeper dude.
right up there with "sanitation engineer"

There you go, spouting off without knowing WTF you're talking about again. I suggest you drop this habit-especially when discussing things in person.

A civil engineer is a person who practices civil engineering – the application of planning, designing, constructing, maintaining, and operating infrastructures while protecting the public and environmental health, as well as improving existing infrastructures that have been neglected.

Originally, a civil engineer worked on public works projects and was contrasted with the military engineer,^{[citation needed]} who worked on armaments and defenses. Over time, various branches of engineering have become recognized as distinct from civil engineering, including chemical engineering, mechanical engineering, and electrical engineering, while much of military engineering has been absorbed by civil engineering.

In some places, a civil engineer may perform land surveying; in others, surveying is limited to construction surveying, unless an additional qualification is obtained.

In most countries, a civil engineer will have graduated from a post-secondary school with a degree in civil engineering, which requires a strong background in mathematics and the physical sciences; this degree is typically a bachelor's degree, though many civil engineers study further to obtain master's, engineer, doctoral and post doctoral degrees. In many countries, civil engineers are subject to licensure. In some jurisdictions with mandatory licensing, people who do not obtain a license may not call themselves "civil engineers."

[HVACTech]

There you go, spouting off without knowing WTF you're talking about again. I suggest you drop this habit-especially when discussing things in person.

infrastructures

that's a pretty big word for you to use HB..

is that sorta like an "interface" or "relay" board?

the application of planning, designing, constructing, maintaining, and operating infrastructures

that sounds pretty $#@!ing COMPLICATED HB.

have you EVER hugged a machine HB?
or begged and pleaded with one? if so, how did that work out for you?

IT HAS never WORKED OUT FOR ME.

[Anti Federalist]

how is the BOR connected to the CONstitution?
would be a better question.

Duly ratified amendments, as per the instructions in the document.

And ratification of the BoR was much more "open" than the drafting of the 1787 CONstitution.

do you even HAVE a position AF? if so. PLEASE pontificate.
pretty please? with sugar on top?

Sure, and it is very much the same as yours.

I just think it is a mistake to hold the 1787 CONstitution up as some sort of infallible "holy relic", impossible to criticize or improve upon, when clearly, it is not, because, as I have stated so many times before, it has either authorized the tyranny we live under or has been impotent to stop it.

[Anti Federalist]

something like that.
AF likes to refer to 1787.
THAT would be 3 years..

why did you chose 1789?
Near as I can tell, it was nearly 4 years. march of 1787 to late Dec of 1791.

IF. you know what a "civil engineer" is. then, OF COURSE you KNOW what the $#@! HVAC/R is. right?

does it get any more "civil" than that?

I KNOW how $#@! gets done dude.
I am a SENIOR, MASTER HVAC/R tech.

"civil engineering" is a groundskeeper dude.
right up there with "sanitation engineer"

You're arguing with me, and I'm a high school dropout.

How does bashing erowe's degree or training, or laying out your HVAC creds yet again, have anything at all to do with the discussion at hand?

The gap in time has been explained numerous times: without the promise of a bill of rights, some state conventions would have refused to ratify.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...Bill_of_Rights

It took two years: 1787 to 1789 for enough states to sign on to even allow the new CONstitution to work, and another two years to ratify the BoR, as was promised to the hold out states in the "Massachusetts Compromise".

[Ronin Truth]

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Unfortunately, thirteen years after the signing of the Declaration, the entire concept of a contractual government was put aside. Instead, a single political party put together a governmental structure embodied in the Constitution which was not and never has been a social contract, and which has never been a statement coming from "we, the people of the United States."

Beginning approximately in 1785, a couple of years after the signing of the Treaty of Paris which brought about our legal severance from England, a political party calling itself the "Federalists" was organized.

This small but determined group put together the so-called Constitutional Convention of 1787 and managed to obtain a majority approval of the instrument they had designed as a new form of government. The delegates were bound to return their finding to the state legislatures which had authorized their sojourn in Philadelphia for the convention. But this was never done. The Federalists well knew that the instrument they had framed would be disapproved by every state legislature then in existence. Hence they wrote into the Constitution, Article VII, the process of ratification, specifying that the Constitution would obtain ratification from the conventions of nine states. This made it possible for the Federalists to avoid virtually certain rejection by the state legislatures and also placed control of the conventions in their hands. As the only organized political party, they carefully packed the separate conventions, making certain not to convene any of them until they were reasonably certain of a successful vote. This procedure, by itself, wipes out any possible assumption of legality or moral obligation.

The Constitution was drawn up by a single political faction, was subsequently read by fewer than 10,000 (that is a generous estimate — it probably fell far short of that number), and was approved by simple majorities with a total of fewer than 6,000 delegates participating in scattered conventions. Opposition was strong and the Constitution barely squeaked by in some states. Thus, the instrument was drafted and approved, in the main, only by a few people within a single political party. Yet the instrument purports to come from "we, the people of the United States."

In view of the undeveloped communications system, the absence of roads, and the huge size of the rural population, it is probable that a vast majority of Americans of European, Asian, or African origins didn't even know that conventions had been held or that an instrument had emerged claiming to be a contract with them.

At the time this was occurring, the total imported population was approximately three million people. By no stretch of the imagination can the deliberations of some six or seven thousand of that number be presumed to bind the total number within a contractual agreement.

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http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...litical-Action

[erowe1]

something like that.
AF likes to refer to 1787.
THAT would be 3 years..

why did you chose 1789?
Near as I can tell, it was nearly 4 years. march of 1787 to late Dec of 1791.

IF. you know what a "civil engineer" is. then, OF COURSE you KNOW what the $#@! HVAC/R is. right?

does it get any more "civil" than that?

I KNOW how $#@! gets done dude.
I am a SENIOR, MASTER HVAC/R tech.

"civil engineering" is a groundskeeper dude.
right up there with "sanitation engineer"

This discussion will probably be more productive if we don't get sidetracked into each other's careers, as though that would settle anything. Whether someone's an HVAC tech, a civil engineer, a theologian, a historian, or anything else, they could easily be either smart or stupid, and regardless which of those they were, they could still make points on this topic that were either right or wrong.

My "two years" question wasn't an attempt at nailing down something precise. Both the establishment of the federal government under its original constitution and the ratification of the BOR were processes that stretched over multiple years. The last state to ratify the Constitution did so in 1788. Washington was inaugurated in 1789. The BOR passed Congress in 1789. And it was finally ratified in 1791. My point was just that it's not true that the BOR came much later, as you said it did. The federal government hardly had time to demonstrate that working under the Constitution without a BOR was so great before they were added. And in fact, the Whiskey Act, which has been mentioned as an early demonstration of the tyranny inherent in the Constitution, had been passed already before the BOR was ratified.

[otherone]

This discussion will probably be more productive if we don't get sidetracked into each other's careers, as though that would settle anything.

The discussion would be more productive if all parties involved posted sober.

[Anti Federalist]

The discussion would be more productive if all parties involved posted sober.

I beg your pardon...

I am as sober as a judge.

Oh, wait...

[Anti Federalist]

Changing of Our Guards

by eric • July 2, 2015

http://ericpetersautos.com/2015/07/0...of-our-guards/

This weekend we celebrate the changing of our guard.

Which, when you stop to think about it, is more than a little odd. Do the inmates of Rikers Island throw a party when they get a new warden? To celebrate the changing of the color of the uniforms worn by their cagers?

And yet, we do.

This coming weekend, (most - AF) Americans will celebrate not being free to – among other things:

Buy and display fireworks themselves.

Choose whether to wear a seat belt.

Say “no thanks” to the health insurance mafia.

Travel without permission (and decline to produce your “papers” on demand).

Smoke in a privately owned bar or pool hall.

Freely associate – or not.

Ever truly own a home or land outright, free from yearly rent payments (in the form of real estate taxes) to the government.

Educate your children as you (rather than strangers in a distant capital city) see fit.

Consume substances decreed (arbitrarily) to be “illegal.”

Possess “contraband” items (including firearms, without which the right to self-defense is a nullity).

Open a business without permission.

Contract your labor without permission – and under “terms and conditions” decreed by the government.park sign pic

Elect not to provide the government with evidence (the income tax form) that can and will be used against you, despite the Fifth Amendment.

Produce and sell milk and other farm products that haven’t been “inspected” by the government and without the permission of the government.

Defend oneself against even the most egregious violation of the law by the law’s enforcers.

Rent a room or apartment you own to whom you wish.

Fish (or hunt) without a license… even on your own land.

Use your car to provide taxi service.

Collect rainwater for personal use.

Opt not to have your home connected to “grid” electricity.

Have your young daughters set up a curbside lemonade stand on a hot July afternoon.

The “long train of abuses” (as Jefferson described them 239 years ago this Saturday) is extensive.

Far more so today than it was back then. And yet, we – most Americans – continue to play their part in the annual July Fourth kabuki theater.

We pretend we’re “free” – and the government pretends it has the “consent of the governed.”

Few stop to ask themselves: If the Fourth Amendment guarantees that we are to be “free from unreasonable searches and seizures” how it can be that all of us are legally subject to completely random searches – without even a whiff of individualized suspicion – whenever we go for a drive in our cars or travel by airplane?

If the Bill if Rights – which is legally part of the Constitution – is (as we are told) the law of the land, how is it that other laws – “interpretations” issued by judges at odds with the crystal clear language of the Constitution – have come to supersede it?

How does one “consent” without actually having given consent?

How does the fact that a question was put to a vote – and some people voted in favor – come to mean that you have given your consent to the measure?

Try quoting the Constitution – the Bill of Rights – in court.

1776 began nobly enough – but by 1787, the revolution was over.

Meeting in secret conclave – what was that about the “consent of the governed”? – the elite of colonial America met for the sole purpose of re-creating what had been overthrown, only with themselves in charge of the operation rather than the English monarch. “The people” – held in contempt by men like Alexander Hamilton – never gave their consent to these “representatives,” who proceeded to enact the 18th century version of a Beer Hall putsch. Charged with amending the Articles of Confederation – nothing more – they proceeded to rip it to shreds and in its place, substituted the “vigorous” and “energetic” (Hamilton’s words) Constitution we suffer under today. The sole purpose of which was to establish a federal leviathan of in-principle unlimited power. Which – exactly as intended – grew into a leviathan of unlimited-in-fact power. One so unlimited, even your “health care” is now its business rather than your own.

Alexander Hamilton was many things, but not a fool. He – and his fellow “federalists” – knew precisely what they were doing. In private conversation, some (including Hamilton and also John Adams) admitted their admiration of the British system. That is, of an authoritarian mercantilist (what we would today call corporatist) state, directed by a coterie of Wise Men (themselves) who knew better than the public what was in the “public interest.”

And told them so.

Thus it has been ever since. Especially since the failure of the southern states – which realized what had happened but reacted to it too late and not adroitly when they finally did react – to rescind their purported “consent” and go their separate way in peace. What was denied the states was then – and ever since – denied the individual. We, as Americans, have no more right to say “no thanks” – to go our way in peace, to be left in peace provided we ourselves our peaceful – than an inmate of Rikers Island.

You may reply: The inmates of Rikers Island have committed – and been convicted of – crimes. They deserve to be caged, their liberty taken. Fair enough, perhaps. But what crime have you committed?

Whom have you harmed by not wearing a seatbelt?

Why should innocent people – who’ve given no reason to even suspect them of having committed any offense – be subject to random stops and searches?

How is it that armed men can threaten you with lethal violence for deciding it’s ok to let people who freely wish to enter (and who may just as freely leave) your privately owned bar or pool hall smoke, if they wish to?

Have you hurt your neighbor by selling him milk he freely wished to buy at a price mutually agreeable to both parties?

Why do any of us “owe” money to people we’ve never met, never injured, never agreed to pay?

If we are free, why are we so controlled, regulated, micromanaged? Under almost constant threat of harassment, fining – and caging?

Why is there literally almost no decision – even to the extent of what goes on in our own homes and bedrooms – that’s left entirely up to us?

The truth is we’re in the same prison as the inmates of Rikers Island – only our “yard” is (for now) a bit more generous. This is an uncomfortable fact, but no less true because it is uncomfortable. The differences are merely of degree, not of principle. The guards at Rikers are the absolute masters and the prisoners are free to do as they are told.

Our “freedoms” are of a piece.

Happy Changing of the Guard Day.

[Ronin Truth]

....... and the home of the brave.

[heavenlyboy34]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Anti Federalist again.

[A Son of Liberty]

something like that.
AF likes to refer to 1787.
THAT would be 3 years..

why did you chose 1789?
Near as I can tell, it was nearly 4 years. march of 1787 to late Dec of 1791.

IF. you know what a "civil engineer" is. then, OF COURSE you KNOW what the $#@! HVAC/R is. right?

does it get any more "civil" than that?

I KNOW how $#@! gets done dude.
I am a SENIOR, MASTER HVAC/R tech.

"civil engineering" is a groundskeeper dude.
right up there with "sanitation engineer"

OH MY GOD HOLY $#@! NO ONE CARES. YOU'RE AN IDIOT. I'M GUESSING EVERY WORD MORE THAN THREE LETTERS LONG YOU LEARNED FROM WORD-OF-THE-DAY TOILET PAPER THAT YOU BUMPED INTO WHILE FIXING SOMEONE'S TOILET. AND YES I KNOW THAT HVAC TECHS DONT WORK ON TOILETS, BUT IM NOT SURE YOU DO.

[HVACTech]

OH MY GOD HOLY $#@! NO ONE CARES. YOU'RE AN IDIOT. I'M GUESSING EVERY WORD MORE THAN THREE LETTERS LONG YOU LEARNED FROM WORD-OF-THE-DAY TOILET PAPER THAT YOU BUMPED INTO WHILE FIXING SOMEONE'S TOILET. AND YES I KNOW THAT HVAC TECHS DONT WORK ON TOILETS, BUT IM NOT SURE YOU DO.

Meeting in secret conclave – what was that about the “consent of the governed”? – the elite of colonial America met for the sole purpose of re-creating what had been overthrown, only with themselves in charge of the operation rather than the English monarch. “The people” – held in contempt by men like Alexander Hamilton – never gave their consent to these “representatives,” who proceeded to enact the 18th century version of a Beer Hall putsch.

[A Son of Liberty]

Sorry; you're right... I didn't make myself clear...

NO ONE CARES YOU'RE AN HVAC TECH. SERIOUSLY WTF DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING? AND NO, STATES OF MATTER ARE NOT RELEVANT TO THIS DISCUSSION. AND NO, BEING AND HVAC TECH DOES NOT MEAN YOU KNOW HOW TO GET $#@! DONE.

[A Son of Liberty]

Is there some backwoods $#@!hole corner of this country I'm not familiar with where being a $#@!ing HVAC tech is akin to being a canonized saint, or the inventor of sliced $#@!ing bread? Am I just losing my $#@! or has no one in the history of the internet ever referenced a less relevant profession as credentials to discuss political philosophy?

Seriously. What. The. $#@!??

[Ender]

that's a pretty big word for you to use HB..

is that sorta like an "interface" or "relay" board?



that sounds pretty $#@!ing COMPLICATED HB.

have you EVER hugged a machine HB?
or begged and pleaded with one? if so, how did that work out for you?

IT HAS never WORKED OUT FOR ME.

Dude, you have got a serious ID.10.T problem; get someone who is really savvy in tech/history/google to help you.

[HVACTech]

It has. I have a bachelors degree in civil engineering from the University of Michigan and worked in that field for 2 years before changing careers, and then in a part-time capacity when I was a seminary student.

I can't make any sense out of your post though. Are you saying that 2 years is "much later," and that anyone who has ever been an engineer would know that?

so, 3 guys sit down and start talking about what type of Engineer God MUST have been..

the Electrical Engineer (EE) says clearly God was an EE. since it was used in the human body.
the Mechanical Engineer says.. no way! he was clearly an ME! look at the bones and muscles. for proof!

the Computer Engineer ponders this for a moment. frowns. and states.

God was CLEARLY a Civil Engineer.

who the hell else would design a system where the hazardous waste disposal system . runs right through the recreation area?

[Anti Federalist]

The Political Economy of the Antifederalists

https://mises.org/library/political-...ifederalists-0

The eighteenth-century opponents of the U.S. Constitution have been derided by some historians as politically naive and intellectually inferior to their Federalist counterparts. A noted chronicler of the Antifederalists labeled them as "men of little faith" due to their distrust of government.

In one sense, such characterizations are correct: The Antifederalists were badly outmaneuvered by the shrewder Federalists who used a number of underhanded, and frankly illegal tactics to secure ratification of the Constitution.

However deficient the Anti-federalists were in terms of practical politics, their thoughts on political theory and the nature of government—heavily criticized by modern scholars—far surpassed the pronouncements of their more celebrated foes.

Volume 11, Number 1 (1994)

https://mises.org/system/tdf/11_1_6_...&type=document

[heavenlyboy34]

Is there some backwoods $#@!hole corner of this country I'm not familiar with where being a $#@!ing HVAC tech is akin to being a canonized saint, or the inventor of sliced $#@!ing bread? Am I just losing my $#@! or has no one in the history of the internet ever referenced a less relevant profession as credentials to discuss political philosophy?

Seriously. What. The. $#@!??

Hazzard County?

[heavenlyboy34]

[QUOTE=Ender;5912015]Dude, you have got a serious ID.10.T problem; get someone who is really savvy in tech/history/google to help you.[QUOTE]

That's why I have him on ignore. I come into these threads because people quote him and I can lol at his ignorance and foolishness. Ever had a musician or speaker or pushy exec try to tell you how to operate a Mackie mixing board? That's what it feels like when I read HVAC's posts generally, and especially in this thread where he tries to talk down to people who obviously know far more than he does about the topic at hand.

[HVACTech]

Sorry; you're right... I didn't make myself clear...

NO ONE CARES YOU'RE AN HVAC TECH. SERIOUSLY WTF DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING? AND NO, STATES OF MATTER ARE NOT RELEVANT TO THIS DISCUSSION. AND NO, BEING AND HVAC TECH DOES NOT MEAN YOU KNOW HOW TO GET $#@! DONE.

friend, what it has to do with.
is understanding complex systems and subsystems.

what I support is.

a Constitutional Republic based on natural law and god given rights is an AnCaps (like me) wet dream.

I was probably doing Liebert server room systems. http://www.scottbatteries.com/HVAC-D...wikool-GE.html before you were born.

I consider a "computer" to be a configurable relay assembly. or a motherboard with cards.

yes. as a minachist I find anarchists annoying.
you are pissed at me. for supporting a "state" (those are ALWAYS BAD!!)

invention of the MOSFET transistor. reduced heat output significantly in server rooms.
did the aliens give us Transistors in 1948?

you DO know what the difference is, between a 1 and a zero. right?

[HVACTech]

[QUOTE=Ender;5912015]Dude, you have got a serious ID.10.T problem; get someone who is really savvy in tech/history/google to help you.[QUOTE]

That's why I have him on ignore. I come into these threads because people quote him and I can lol at his ignorance and foolishness. Ever had a musician or speaker or pushy exec try to tell you how to operate a Mackie mixing board? That's what it feels like when I read HVAC's posts generally, and especially in this thread where he tries to talk down to people who obviously know far more than he does about the topic at hand.

what is the topic at hand HB?

I suspect that AF. MIGHT be against Federations in general.

what does "Anti-Federalist" mean to YOU HB?

are you also a "CONfederate" like AF?

[erowe1]

yes. as a minachist

I thought you supported the US Constitution. Now you say you're a minarchist. Which is it really?

[Origanalist]

I thought you supported the US Constitution. Now you say you're a minarchist. Which is it really?

Go take a HVAC apprenticeship. When you become a master tech you will understand.

[heavenlyboy34]

Go take a HVAC apprenticeship. When you become a master tech you will understand.

bwah HAHAHAHAHA!!! lulz

[HVACTech]

I thought you supported the US Constitution. Now you say you're a minarchist. Which is it really?

are you asking me what a differential equation is?



I will probably have to consult with Danke or HB for an answer sir.

[Anti Federalist]

I suspect that AF. MIGHT be against Federations in general.

I am certainly opposed to federations that strip their participants of rights and reduce them to a polite form of despotism.

[HVACTech]

Go take a HVAC apprenticeship. When you become a master tech you will understand.

by Gods grace. I have the ability to understand complex systems.

I am both a Minarchist and a Deist.

"blue on black" bro.