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Thread: Rand's position on evolution - split thread

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    Default Rand's position on evolution - split thread

    Quote Originally Posted by garyallen59 View Post
    Well I just cut it on and I guess I just caught the last question. It was about evolution. Rand said we obviously evolved.
    Well that's not going to go over well with fundamentalist Christians, but not like he was going to get that vote anyway. So Rand believes in theistic evolution then, acknowledging both evolution and God. He's pulling the Francis Collins. I like this position because it is something that most religious skeptics (such as myself) and most religious believers can accept.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

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    I'm a fundamentalist Christian, and Rand is certainly going to get my vote. I disagree with him on evolution, but I realize this really isn't a political issue. Rand understands that any political aspect of the issue would be handled locally. Also, Rand's position on this makes him much more electable in a general election. Unfortunately, most Americans care about non issues like this. But I know that someone with my views on these kind of issues could never get elected President in our country today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brett85 View Post
    I'm a fundamentalist Christian, and Rand is certainly going to get my vote. I disagree with him on evolution, but I realize this really isn't a political issue. Rand understands that any political aspect of the issue would be handled locally. Also, Rand's position on this makes him much more electable in a general election. Unfortunately, most Americans care about non issues like this. But I know that someone with my views on these kind of issues could never get elected President in our country today.
    Same here. I was disappointed with his answer on evolution. He will lose votes over this and may end up costly in a crowded field. I had hopes that Ted Cruz will eventually bow out and endorse Paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simon1911 View Post
    Same here. I was disappointed with his answer on evolution. He will lose votes over this and may end up costly in a crowded field. I had hopes that Ted Cruz will eventually bow out and endorse Paul.
    The evolution question is a stumbling block that is regularly used on Republicans in order to cost them votes in early primary states. I'm not a Fundamentalist, but I'm 100% opposed to the idea that one can be a Christian and fudge the Pentateuch, particularly in its historicity. I'm not sure whether Rand actually believes what he gave as an answer, but if he does I am disappointed in him, not that it will impact my vote since every other person running for office is running afoul of the entire Christian religion both morally and spiritually.

    The only early state where this may cost him some votes is in Iowa, however, given that most Mid-Western evangelicals are rabidly Dispensationalist, I doubt he would have gotten their votes given his moderated views on Israel, and I know for a fact that Ron Paul got extremely little support from them in 2012 and came close to edging out a victory in the popular vote. People in New Hampshire and Florida tend to be fairly irreligious or cosmopolitan in their views (basically the same thing) so Rand probably helped himself in those states, and South Carolina I've pretty much written off as winnable since all they care about is the spilling of blood.

    Keep in mind that John McCain prevailed in the 2008 primary by taking a fictional synergistic view of Genesis and Darwinism. American, all too American.

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    From a purely electoral perspective, Rand should keep his evolution opinions to himself.

    As a Christian who actually thinks, I'm perfectly fine with a liberty person in government being even a hardened atheist. Whatever is fine for me. But the problem is there is a large portion of the primary electorate that is unthinking and will focus on things like this.

    And I already know what someone is going to say. "Well screw them, we don't need them." Uh, yeah we do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simon1911 View Post
    Same here. I was disappointed with his answer on evolution. He will lose votes over this and may end up costly in a crowded field. I had hopes that Ted Cruz will eventually bow out and endorse Paul.
    Agree. It was a dumb answer by Rand. Mark my words, this will be used against him. He screwed up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    From a purely electoral perspective, Rand should keep his evolution opinions to himself.

    As a Christian who actually thinks, I'm perfectly fine with a liberty person in government being even a hardened atheist. Whatever is fine for me. But the problem is there is a large portion of the primary electorate that is unthinking and will focus on things like this.

    And I already know what someone is going to say. "Well screw them, we don't need them." Uh, yeah we do.
    We need everyone to vote for Rand, its okay to have a different opinion than the guy you vote for. Especially when its philosophical differences and not where should we plant our military force and what should we force our citizens to do and should we get a warrant to monitor and create a digital fingerprint for. Especially when the digital fingerprint can be edited and you have no power or right to fight to get it changed. The new politics of online trolling in order to create policy and control the population needs to stop.

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    How difficult would it have been for Rand to say "I don't know about the issue of evolution. I'll let the experts deal with that." .....or something along those lines?

    Why did he make himself so absolutely strident in his answer? Not a smart move.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    How difficult would it have been for Rand to say "I don't know about the issue of evolution. I'll let the experts deal with that." .....or something along those lines?

    Why did he make himself so absolutely strident in his answer? Not a smart move.
    Why should he be dishonest if that's what he absolutely believes? I trust him much more because of this. Every non politically expedient but honest move makes me want to fight for him more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Why should he be dishonest if that's what he absolutely believes? I trust him much more because of this. Every non politically expedient but honest move makes me want to fight for him more.
    Beliefs are fine. Evolution and theistic evolution like Rand expressed, are beliefs that are not based on evidence.

    There are many unthinking people out there who would go for Cruz or Huckabee instead of Rand just on this one issue. There was no reason for Rand to be so absolutely strident on this issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    The evolution question is a stumbling block that is regularly used on Republicans in order to cost them votes in early primary states. I'm not a Fundamentalist, but I'm 100% opposed to the idea that one can be a Christian and fudge the Pentateuch, particularly in its historicity. I'm not sure whether Rand actually believes what he gave as an answer, but if he does I am disappointed in him, not that it will impact my vote since every other person running for office is running afoul of the entire Christian religion both morally and spiritually.

    The only early state where this may cost him some votes is in Iowa, however, given that most Mid-Western evangelicals are rabidly Dispensationalist, I doubt he would have gotten their votes given his moderated views on Israel, and I know for a fact that Ron Paul got extremely little support from them in 2012 and came close to edging out a victory in the popular vote. People in New Hampshire and Florida tend to be fairly irreligious or cosmopolitan in their views (basically the same thing) so Rand probably helped himself in those states, and South Carolina I've pretty much written off as winnable since all they care about is the spilling of blood.

    Keep in mind that John McCain prevailed in the 2008 primary by taking a fictional synergistic view of Genesis and Darwinism. American, all too American.
    You are absolutely right that this issue could affect him in Iowa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Beliefs are fine. Evolution and theistic evolution like Rand expressed, are beliefs that are not based on evidence.

    There are many unthinking people out there who would go for Cruz or Huckabee instead of Rand just on this one issue. There was no reason for Rand to be so absolutely strident on this issue.
    This is where we disagree i guess. To me its the unpolitical things he does like filibuster for my privacy and his blunt honesty on safety nets that make me want to vote for him. Yeah advocating for changes to the safety net will yield negative votes from people who use safety net services, but they get people like me out to change peoples minds because i know he is advocating for change because he passionately feels that its broken and if its not fixed it will cause generations of poverty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    This is where we disagree i guess. To me its the unpolitical things he does like filibuster for my privacy and his blunt honesty on safety nets that make me want to vote for him. Yeah advocating for changes to the safety net will yield negative votes from people who use safety net services, but they get people like me out to change peoples minds because i know he is advocating for change because he passionately feels that its broken and if its not fixed it will cause generations of poverty.
    Filibustering the Patriot Act is an "unpolitical thing"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Filibustering the Patriot Act is an "unpolitical thing"?
    If you think fighting the surveillance state, while everyone in his party is trying to expand the surveillance state and grow terrorism in the middle east by funding radical Islam is a good idea then you didn't understand the reason why he did it in the first place. You probably are one of the people who thought he submitted his AUMF and defense budget because he wanted to be one of them too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    You are absolutely right that this issue could affect him in Iowa.
    It will, but the question is to what extent, and will it be a short-term sacrifice for goals in future states. With Huckabee and Cruz vying for the folks from the Fundy crowd (and possibly Perry and Carson), Paul will be angling for the so-called moderate Christian types (aka the lukewarm majority of American monotheists). I think that Rand's answer is wrong objectively, but from a practical political standpoint, this may make him easier to sell to the blue blood types that are usually creeped out by Christians who actually believe in Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    How difficult would it have been for Rand to say "I don't know about the issue of evolution. I'll let the experts deal with that." .....or something along those lines?
    I see a campaign ad or even a billboard with one of the photos that shows Rand Paul looking confused, with a headline reading, "Rand Paul is a doctor who doesn't know what evolution is. Call him and tell him to get a 6th grade science textbook".

    There is a down-side to every answer, and the only thing worse than Rand either going full Darwin or full Genesis would be to try playing ignorant. Herman Cain made a habit of saying he'd defer to the experts, and the media had everyone believing he was a boob unfit to be the mayor of a ghost town.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    If you think fighting the surveillance state, while everyone in his party is trying to expand the surveillance state and grow terrorism in the middle east by funding radical Islam is a good idea then you didn't understand the reason why he did it in the first place. You probably are one of the people who thought he submitted his AUMF and defense budget because he wanted to be one of them too.
    No. You equated a truly unpolitical thing like the belief in evolution to a truly political thing like Filibusteringthe Patriot Act. Obviously they are not the same kind of issues.

    Please don't presume to know about my views of the surveillance state or any state for that matter. I don't believe that the state should exist. I was merely giving my opinion on electoral politics as it exists today. And if you don't think this will come back to Rand, just keep watching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    No. You equated a truly unpolitical thing like the belief in evolution to a truly political thing like Filibusteringthe Patriot Act. Obviously they are not the same kind of issues.

    Please don't presume to know about my views of the surveillance state or any state for that matter. I don't believe that the state should exist. I was merely giving my opinion on electoral politics as it exists today. And if you don't think this will come back to Rand, just keep watching.
    I think its going to help him politically and I will put my money where my mouth is and donate to him specifically for saying this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    It will, but the question is to what extent, and will it be a short-term sacrifice for goals in future states. With Huckabee and Cruz vying for the folks from the Fundy crowd (and possibly Perry and Carson), Paul will be angling for the so-called moderate Christian types (aka the lukewarm majority of American monotheists). I think that Rand's answer is wrong objectively, but from a practical political standpoint, this may make him easier to sell to the blue blood types that are usually creeped out by Christians who actually believe in Christianity.



    I see a campaign ad or even a billboard with one of the photos that shows Rand Paul looking confused, with a headline reading, "Rand Paul is a doctor who doesn't know what evolution is. Call him and tell him to get a 6th grade science textbook".

    There is a down-side to every answer, and the only thing worse than Rand either going full Darwin or full Genesis would be to try playing ignorant. Herman Cain made a habit of saying he'd defer to the experts, and the media had everyone believing he was a boob unfit to be the mayor of a ghost town.
    There may be billboards like that, but there are many doctors who don't believe in evolution, or don't have a strong view on it. Not all are Christians either. It works both ways.
    Last edited by Sola_Fide; 05-30-2015 at 12:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    I think its going to help him politically and I will put my money where my mouth is and donate to him specifically for saying this.
    So you vote and support politicians based on their view of evolution? Yep, that's nuts. But thanks for making my point that many people like yourself, on both sides of the issue, unflinchingly vote based on the answer to this question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    So you vote and support politicians based on their view of evolution? Yep, that's nuts. But thanks for making my point that many people like yourself, on both sides of the issue, unflinchingly vote based on the answer to this question.
    Yep I voted and donated all i could for his dad because he had the guts to say stuff that wasn't politically expedient and that he believed even when i disagreed with him on evolution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    There may be billboards like that, but there are many doctors who don't believe in evolution. Not all are Christians either. It works both ways.
    Oh sure there are, but Democracy is about numbers, and the numbers are on the side of the mutant fish-frog, not Genesis, ESPECIALLY when it comes to doctors. Similarly, the average voter at home may not be a hardened anti-theist, but between America's rabid cultural dogma of universal acceptance of religious viewpoints and the pervasiveness of Darwinism in public education, even moderate Christians will think that someone who says "I don't know about the evolution issue" is either lying or a dunce.

    In accordance with your own words regarding "Christians who actually think" being an exception, the same holds true for most non-Christian American voters. Universal suffrage necessitates the mass participation of unthinking people. Perception is basically everything and reality is a social construct/side effect. There is a reason why Pragmatism is an American creation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Yep I voted and donated all i could for his dad because he had the guts to say stuff that wasn't politically expedient and that he believed even when i disagreed with him on evolution.
    So now you're saying that you don't vote for politicians based on their view of evolution. But 2 posts ago, you said you did. So, which is it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    So now you're saying that you don't vote for politicians based on their view of evolution. But 2 posts ago, you said you did. So, which is it?
    I vote for people who I feel are being honest with me and not trying to pander to the biggest electorate just so they can just so they can get elected. Whether they believe in ancient aliens or Elmo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    I vote for people who I feel are being honest with me and not trying to pander to the biggest electorate just so they can just so they can get elected. Whether they believe in ancient aliens or Elmo.
    So why don't you vote for Bernie Sanders? He is very honest and consistent and believes very strongly in his opinions. He doesn't pander as much as the other ones either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    I think its going to help him politically and I will put my money where my mouth is and donate to him specifically for saying this.
    and this is how real people talk ! This really is going to change something ;-) #fakeactivity

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    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    and this is how real people talk ! This really is going to change something ;-) #fakeactivity
    Please go away. The adults are talking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    So why don't you vote for Bernie Sanders? He is very honest and consistent and believes very strongly in his opinions. He doesn't pander as much as the other ones either.
    I don't believe in socialistic governments, i grew up in a country that enjoys the fruits of labor and capitalism. I think he is pandering to people who want free stuff which is the biggest electorate. Can you give me a harder question please?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    I don't believe in socialistic governments, i grew up in a country that enjoys the fruits of labor and capitalism. I think he is pandering to people who want free stuff which is the biggest electorate. Can you give me a harder question please?
    Nah, it's ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Nah, it's ok.
    Real adult talk, I was hoping for a bot fight ;-) #fakeactivity

  31. #30

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    Just curious, to those that have a problem with his position on evolution why does it bother you? What's wrong with someone believing in evolution? Like I get it from the other standpoint because then they label you as anti-science/non-intellectual but why is it a problem with the religious segment for someone to believe in evolution? Not an attack just curious to why it bothered people.

    Personally to me I don't care what a person's evolution position is because it is completely irrelevant to the job they are running for.

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