IT Experts - Let's talk small business servers

[GunnyFreedom]

Show me anything close in the rack server market with an i5 chip and two @ 240 SSDs in it for $1040.

Well, refurbished rather than new. I'm thinking my search-fu is just not strong enough. I was having trouble coming up with 2x 5.25 bays on the chassis. I don't really need all the disco lights, but it was only an additional $10, and that company charges too much for shipping anyway....

Off to refine this list again. I plan to cut you a consult fee when this client pays me. I really do want to cut this price down to around $900 is tho

[presence]

The two places I see bang for buck waste is Intel chipset and Microsoft OS. If you could move his server to linux and AMD you'd save $300 and get the same performance.

[presence]

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...0_51049&Sort=1

You can get the SSD down to $85 each with PNY or Kingston at tigerdirect.

[presence]

This AMD bundle for $154 would keep pace with that i5 bundle for $319

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=9640853&CatId=11511



see others keyword amd bundle

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...ds=amd+bundle+

[GunnyFreedom]

The two places I see bang for buck waste is Intel chipset and Microsoft OS. If you could move his server to linux and AMD you'd save $300 and get the same performance.

I will probably be able to run AMD (I am going to need to get ahold of a human being at Oracle who knows MICROS server apps and ask them, which may be painful), but I don't see getting away from Windows at this point in time. Even if I went to virtualization, the app is coded to run in Windows, and both the server app and all the client cash registers expect a Windows network.

This is one reason why I like Papa John's, they run ELO's on a Linux network.

[GunnyFreedom]

Alright, I'm going to roll by the tavern tomorrow while they are open, collect precise information about how much room is in the rack, and the exact MICROS software suite and version. From my research it does appear that AMD will work fine, but everything at Oracle/MICROS says "designed to work with Windows 7 Pro" so I'm probably stuck with that. This guy will probably be tickled pink if I can run his server up into the rack where he doesn't have to worry about spilling a whiskey and coke on it.

I'll let y'all know the three options I give him, and which one he picks. Thanks for all the help!

[tangent4ronpaul]

What exactly does this MICROS POS do for him?

He rents the software, right?
No access to source code
Pays through the nose for a service call...

I think you are asking the wrong question here.

NORD POS is a fork of Openbravo POS application designed for touch screens. It's point of sale improved for desktop application.
https://github.com/nordpos/nordpos

CORE-POS is the point of sale oriented project under Co-operative
Operational Retail Environment (CORE). The code is based heavily
on IS4C with a focus on greater modularity and collaboration.
https://github.com/CORE-POS/IS4C

Open POS is a Point of Sale Application Built with Ember.
In this repo you will find examples of touch events that make the application fast on touch devises.
Open-pos is built using the ember-rails gem
https://github.com/kiwiupover/open-pos

SambaPOS Touch Screen POS Software
https://github.com/emreeren/SambaPOS-3

There are a bunch more:
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=github++POS

These are specific for bars:

POSSUM is a software for point of sales (POS) specially designed for restaurant / bar / brasserie.

It is advisable to use at least a ticket printer and a touch screen.

POSSUM can be used to provide billing and presents different statistical (Sales, VAT amount, total payments by payment type, settings, average ticket per table, ...). These statistics are calculated per day and per month and help the manager to know the trade trend sales.

It is also possible to manage playlists, this will allow you to use POSSUM as a jukebox to play music in the restaurant.

POSSUM is a french project, nevertheless we try to write up in English.

All source code are under GPLv3 and documentation in FDL. POSSUM is developed with Python / Django.

https://github.com/possum-software/possum


https://www.odoo.com/forum/help-1/qu...taurants-53346


Are you sure those cash registers will only run on a windows network?

-t

[FunkBuddha]

As opposed to imaging the drives on the clients, you could have a linux as the host OS on the rackmount and a Windows VM for the client app. Run a thin client at the POS and netboot the VM.

For the VM scenario. I'm just thinking aloud here.

Put Linux w/ KVM on the machine and install the Windows OS as a guest, divorcing the "server" from the hardware. Snapshot and backup the VMs to a NAS as often as you like and if the hardware dies, grab some cheap box off of ebay, throw the hypervisor on it, copy the VMs over and you're back in business.

Then, next to the POS app server, install another VM with Docker. Install NAGIOS and Cacti with PHP Weathermap for monitoring the hypervisor using the LM_Sensors module, the Windows guest w/ SNMP and/or WMI, the UPS(NUT), and the router if it supports SNMP or sflow/netflow. This VM would be something you could throw on any server you built in the future and with minimal effort to provide the same services.

A guy told me once that you should be able to throw a server in the trash and be back up and running in a few hours. If you're re-installing Operating systems, patching and then installing applications after a major incident, you're wasting yours and your customers time/money.

Virtualization is a powerful tool to keep in the toolbox.

[helmuth_hubener]

Do think about the software end and total end-goal experience. Unless you want to just be a glorified purchasing agent. What does he really want to *do*? Process payments. What is the best way to do that? Square. Obviously. Long term, big picture, he should probably switch to Square and both he and his customers will have a much better experience, and you as his tech consultant should just tell him this. That's your usefulness. This goes to the idea of presenting him with three choices. Not ideal. How should he know? No, you just tell him what is best. "This is how you should do it. It will work awesome." Period. If he overrules you because of cost or some particular idea he has, OK, you may then have to modify your plan to fit those wishes, but default: do the guy a favor and just tell him what he wants. You know, or should. He doesn't.

[helmuth_hubener]

As far as on the hardware end, I think you have the right idea now and are on the right track. But you should just pick what you think is the best, and just tell him "this is it." None of this three choices junk.

One is simpler than three.

Simple.

Simple.

Simple.

[GunnyFreedom]

What exactly does this MICROS POS do for him?

He rents the software, right?
No access to source code
Pays through the nose for a service call...

I think you are asking the wrong question here.

NORD POS is a fork of Openbravo POS application designed for touch screens. It's point of sale improved for desktop application.
https://github.com/nordpos/nordpos

CORE-POS is the point of sale oriented project under Co-operative
Operational Retail Environment (CORE). The code is based heavily
on IS4C with a focus on greater modularity and collaboration.
https://github.com/CORE-POS/IS4C

Open POS is a Point of Sale Application Built with Ember.
In this repo you will find examples of touch events that make the application fast on touch devises.
Open-pos is built using the ember-rails gem
https://github.com/kiwiupover/open-pos

SambaPOS Touch Screen POS Software
https://github.com/emreeren/SambaPOS-3

There are a bunch more:
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=github++POS

These are specific for bars:

POSSUM is a software for point of sales (POS) specially designed for restaurant / bar / brasserie.

It is advisable to use at least a ticket printer and a touch screen.

POSSUM can be used to provide billing and presents different statistical (Sales, VAT amount, total payments by payment type, settings, average ticket per table, ...). These statistics are calculated per day and per month and help the manager to know the trade trend sales.

It is also possible to manage playlists, this will allow you to use POSSUM as a jukebox to play music in the restaurant.

POSSUM is a french project, nevertheless we try to write up in English.

All source code are under GPLv3 and documentation in FDL. POSSUM is developed with Python / Django.

https://github.com/possum-software/possum


https://www.odoo.com/forum/help-1/qu...taurants-53346


Are you sure those cash registers will only run on a windows network?

-t

Oh believe you me, he hates MACROS and I very much want to do this, but I am not about to go implementing a concept swap until I have a fully functional testbed at the home office. POS is way too mission critical to go running experiments on your end user. Imagine wiping everything out and installing a new concept, only to discover you are missing some critical service to allow the end user to take credit cards.

Before I go selling a concept swap I must have a fully operational test bed, and in order to have a fully operational test bed I must make a bunch of money to buy the equipment.

Yeah, this is exactly where I want to go, and the customer is ready for it too, but POS is one of those things that you simply don't go turning over without some kind of safety net.

There are all kinds of liabilities involved. Lost sales, lost records, inventory shrinkage, tax irregularities, payroll irregularities, and so on.

You are on the right track, you just can't go rushing headlong into these things in POS world.

[GunnyFreedom]

Do think about the software end and total end-goal experience. Unless you want to just be a glorified purchasing agent. What does he really want to *do*? Process payments. What is the best way to do that? Square. Obviously. Long term, big picture, he should probably switch to Square and both he and his customers will have a much better experience, and you as his tech consultant should just tell him this. That's your usefulness. This goes to the idea of presenting him with three choices. Not ideal. How should he know? No, you just tell him what is best. "This is how you should do it. It will work awesome." Period. If he overrules you because of cost or some particular idea he has, OK, you may then have to modify your plan to fit those wishes, but default: do the guy a favor and just tell him what he wants. You know, or should. He doesn't.

There is SO much more to POS than just accepting payments. The 'insiders' term isn't Point Of Sale, it's actually Point Of Service. That's not just a euphemism for 'smile at the customer' either.

A basic POS is going to list the entire menu, calculate tax, manage credit card tips, pop cash drawers, print receipts, send tickets to the kitchen, run a Kitchen Display System, queue orders, respond to bump bars, split different part of an order to different stations, process coupons and specials...

A more advanced POS will track inventory, identify shrinkage, organize purchase orders, manage perishables, and serve as an employee timeclock.

He has a semi advanced system. It does all of the above except identify shrinkage, organize purchase orders, and manage perishables. I'm not going to propose to a customer that he swap a fully articulated Point Of Service system for a credit card reader that can't even pop a cash drawer. That's just not going to happen.

[GunnyFreedom]

For the VM scenario. I'm just thinking aloud here.

Put Linux w/ KVM on the machine and install the Windows OS as a guest, divorcing the "server" from the hardware. Snapshot and backup the VMs to a NAS as often as you like and if the hardware dies, grab some cheap box off of ebay, throw the hypervisor on it, copy the VMs over and you're back in business.

Then, next to the POS app server, install another VM with Docker. Install NAGIOS and Cacti with PHP Weathermap for monitoring the hypervisor using the LM_Sensors module, the Windows guest w/ SNMP and/or WMI, the UPS(NUT), and the router if it supports SNMP or sflow/netflow. This VM would be something you could throw on any server you built in the future and with minimal effort to provide the same services.

A guy told me once that you should be able to throw a server in the trash and be back up and running in a few hours. If you're re-installing Operating systems, patching and then installing applications after a major incident, you're wasting yours and your customers time/money.

Virtualization is a powerful tool to keep in the toolbox.

You are even closer to how it's being done, but virtualization is really just emerging in POS world, and it's picking up popularity with blazing speed. At this point everyone is doing it differently because no real standards have resolved as of yet.

For enterprise level POS you have to have 2 NICs segregated on your server, one to access the VPN back to corporate, and the other to operate the POS terminals on the LAN. Remote end does not dial in and gain direct access to terminals, they have to use the BOS system to access the terminals. They usually have a secret user account with access to more apps and services than us mere mortals.

For local-only the problem is a lot simpler. If the End User has enough devices, on a local only system I try to block all access to the WAN period with the lone exception for credit card processing. On an enterprise level system, CC processing runs over the VPN in any case.

A lot of this will be easier to do in virtualization. You can firewall services in the system layer to comply with new federal regulations on equipment that processes bulk credit card data and keep a slightly a less rigorous standard for your firewall and router.

Virtualization will also be the key for my adopting and selling open source POS; because I will be able to keep one testbed and run half a dozen concepts out of it, just swapping around images to go from one store to another.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Attackers use email spam to infect point-of-sale terminals with new malware
http://www.itworld.com/article/29263...ors_picks=true

Cybercriminals are targeting employees who browse the Web or check their email from point-of-sale (PoS) computers, a risky but unfortunately common practice.

Researchers from security firm FireEye recently came across a spam campaign that used rogue email messages masquerading as job inquiries.

The emails had fake resumes attached that were actually Word documents with an embedded malicious macro. If allowed to run, the macro installed a program that downloaded additional malware from a remote server.

Among those additional programs, the FireEye researchers identified a new memory-scraping malware threat that steals payment card data from PoS terminals. They’ve dubbed the new threat NitlovePOS.

PoS malware has become commonplace over the past few years and has led to some of the largest credit card breaches to date. This kind of malicious program was used to steal 56 million payment card records from Home Depot last year and 40 million from Target in late 2013.

Once they are installed on PoS terminals, these programs scan the system’s memory for card data while it’s being passed from the card reader to the specialized merchant application—hence the term “memory-scraping.” Criminals can use the stolen data to create fraudulent copies of the compromised cards.

Attackers typically infect PoS systems with malware by using stolen or easy-to-guess remote access credentials. Another method is to first compromise other computers on the same network as the terminals and then to attack them.

However, it’s unusual to see PoS malware distributed through spam, like in the case of NitlovePOS, especially as part of a larger, indiscriminate campaign. This suggests that cybercriminals seek to exploit cases where employees use Windows-based PoS terminals to check their email or perform other risky activities.

“Organizations should educate their employees to follow best security practices, such as only using POS systems for what they are intended for and not to browse the web, check email, play video games, etc.,” researchers from security firm Trustwave wrote last month in a blog post that advised organizations on how to protect their systems against a memory-scraping memory program called Punkey.

https://www.fireeye.com/blog/threat-...s_another.html

-t

[thoughtomator]

Just get a DELL rack mount server and be done with it - hardware is so cheap and easily replaced these days that it makes no sense to do anything custom and suffer the burden of maintaining it. This is 2015 - hardware needs to be treated as disposable. "Build your own" is from an era that is now firmly in the past.

[osan]

Why on earth would you ever want a disk drive when you can have solid-state? Moving parts are points of potential failure and having a RAID rack full of striped and mirrored spinning things doesn't give me any warm/fuzzies. They are a PITA that are readily dismissed with SSDs. Add a GOOD surge filter and many potential problems are solved.

You can, in fact, put filters IN LINE. Two like that or even three and a direct strike should even be defeated.

[TheCount]

Have you considered HP's line of micro servers? It's basically a NAS on steroids.

http://www8.hp.com/us/en/products/pr...60#!tab=models

Specifically, this one:

http://www8.hp.com/us/en/products/pr...ml?oid=5366896


It just depends on how much load the POS system actually generates, but I would think that the Pentium processor would be more than enough to handle the database transactions of a single location. If you really felt the need, you could switch up to one of the Xeon models... but I highly doubt that's needed. You would need to add more RAM, of course. I have an older model that I've had for quite some time. No issues.

[TheCount]

I'm removing mention of the old version of the server because it looks like you can get the Celeron model of the new server for basically the same price, and it will have much better performance than the old Athlon.

http://www.provantage.com/hewlett-pa...qqThoCqSvw_wcB

[GunnyFreedom]

Have you considered HP's line of micro servers? It's basically a NAS on steroids.

http://www8.hp.com/us/en/products/pr...60#!tab=models

Specifically, this one:

http://www8.hp.com/us/en/products/pr...ml?oid=5366896


It just depends on how much load the POS system actually generates, but I would think that the Pentium processor would be more than enough to handle the database transactions of a single location. If you really felt the need, you could switch up to one of the Xeon models... but I highly doubt that's needed. You would need to add more RAM, of course. I have an older model that I've had for quite some time. No issues.

Actually I did look at these on account of his limited space requirements. I figured if heat was an issue with his laptop, then heat was liable to be an issue with one of these, too.

[presence]

Just get a DELL rack mount server and be done with it - hardware is so cheap and easily replaced these days that it makes no sense to do anything custom and suffer the burden of maintaining it. This is 2015 - hardware needs to be treated as disposable. "Build your own" is from an era that is now firmly in the past.

I disagree. You pick a price point and what DELL gives you will always get blown away by build quality at the same cost. Nothing beats the deal of the day mobo+ram+chip bundle at newegg, amazon, and tigerdirect. There's always a free vintage tower to gut. Build your own lets you treat your hardware as "less disposable" and it puts you in tune with what "motherboard series" you're signing up for; I prefer FM2+ which already has chips out 50% faster than when I built (5.0GHz); I have 3 machines at home and have talked several friends and family members into building off the series.

Making bronze or better PSU choices and Noctua or similar fan choices; keeping fans speed set to high in BIOS prolong the life of a business machine. Ideally they're situated about 18" to 6' off the ground in "the middle stratosphere"; not high and hot; not low, damp and dusty.

Dell makes a damn solid case, much kudos; all my machines are in Dell cases.

Dell's fans and power supplies are $#@!, stock seagate et al HD's are delicate platters. Why would I want a dell mobo with proprietary force you into windows crap and limited chip upgrade options when I can get a mil spec mobo for $50 that runs the chip and OS I want?

Why on earth would you ever want a disk drive when you can have solid-state? Moving parts are points of potential failure and having a RAID rack full of striped and mirrored spinning things doesn't give me any warm/fuzzies.

agreed; platters are the dodo bird.

ideal small business machine = 3 SSD; 60gig OS and apps and two matching (240's) for Business Data and Data backup.

If you want ultimate data security; go 60gig OS and two matching 240 gig USB3 thumb drives for Business Data; unplug 1 every night; keep the other in cold storage safe. Or you can hybrid; a 240 SSD in the machine and a 240 thumb in the safe. Depends on the application and user needs.

[thoughtomator]

I disagree. You pick a price point and what DELL gives you will always get blown away by build quality at the same cost. Nothing beats the deal of the day mobo+ram+chip bundle at newegg, amazon, and tigerdirect. There's always a free vintage tower to gut. Build your own lets you treat your hardware as "less disposable" and it puts you in tune with what "motherboard series" you're signing up for; I prefer FM2+ which already has chips out 50% faster than when I built (5.0GHz); I have 3 machines at home and have talked several friends and family members into building off the series.

Making bronze or better PSU choices and Noctua or similar fan choices; keeping fans speed set to high in BIOS prolong the life of a business machine. Ideally they're situated about 18" to 6' off the ground in "the middle stratosphere"; not high and hot; not low, damp and dusty.

Dell makes a damn solid case, much kudos; all my machines are in Dell cases.

Dell's fans and power supplies are $#@!, stock seagate et al HD's are delicate platters. Why would I want a dell mobo with proprietary force you into windows crap and limited chip upgrade options when I can get a mil spec mobo for $50 that runs the chip and OS I want?

For a one-off like Gunny is asking for there's no way in hell I'd also take on the responsibility of supporting the hardware. This is not about which method might produce the better machine, this is a risk management exercise. The server just needs to be good enough to get the job done, not the best of the best.

And if that machine fails, whose fault do you want it to be? Yours? Or DELL's? Letting a 3rd party vendor be responsible for hardware fault is, from a business perspective, a no-brainer. That headache is not worth the hundred or two hundred tops he'll make by putting a custom solution together. The business risk of a custom rig vs. a configuration that is used by the tens of thousands of other installations is not worth taking on at five times that price.

[presence]

The business risk of a custom rig vs. a configuration that is used by the tens of thousands of other installations is not worth taking on at five times that price.

I see where you're going with that. It really depends on what type of service / contract you're looking to provide to the client; what your margins; the duration of your relationship, are you getting into a POS specific business or is this just a one-off etc. I took the approach of "if this was my small business, I knew how to build my own machine, what would I build"; I suppose that also has to be weighed against; "if I was selling a system to a small business, what would I want to stand behind". Its admittedly much easier to send a black box back to Dell than it is to send a mobo back to Gigabyte.

[helmuth_hubener]

I'm not going to propose to a customer that he swap a fully articulated Point Of Service system for a credit card reader that can't even pop a cash drawer. That's just not going to happen.

Seriously, man? You do POS and you don't know about Square? Educate thineself!

https://squareup.com/help/us/en/arti...t-square-stand

Can't pop a cash drawer.

Square is the company that's thinking deeply about exactly what you said: "Point of Service." About the whole user experience. About how lousy the current customer experience is when it comes to payment. You get this ugly scrap of paper, you have to waste time signing it, then giving it back, then getting another one, and what are you going to do with it -- probably throw it away! This whole talk is good, but especially this 4 minute segment, "Payment is a Form of Communication"



The whole talk

~~~

Anyway, in all seriousness it's actually great what you replied to me. As you put it "That's just not going to happen." You have an opinion, a strong, clear opinion, based on at least some facts and understanding, and that opinion is "Square stinks, you don't want Square, you want X (whatever it is you think is awesome)." That's how you should relate to the customer. You don't have to be bombastic and know-it-all, but you are the editor, the curator, of his technical reality. You should have an opinion.

But personally, I have an opinion too, and it's that Square is the best system out there. The people I know who use Square are absolutely tickled with it. And if it doesn't *yet* do everything his current system does (they do keep adding features: http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2...kets/70819848/ ), that's where you come in as integrator to put the systems together and make the best of both of them work together. It is possible that Square is just not for them and their situation. But it's also possible you just don't know enough about it.

Anyway, sorry if I come off as a know-it-all, I just want to offer a different perspective. One that's probably wrong, but at least makes you think.

[GunnyFreedom]

You assume too much. I use Square myself and am happy with it for what I do. It is NOT a POS system.

Also your own link says that if you use any supported hardware except for an iPad, it cannot print receipts or pop cash drawers.

Maybe in another 3-4 years Square will have developed an actual POS system, it is not a POS system now. It is nowhere near ready for prime time.

I have been doing POS for 20 years. My opinion may be 'just an opinion,' but it's a lot more informed than just watching a 5 minute YouTube.

[helmuth_hubener]

You assume too much.

Nah.

My opinion may be 'just an opinion,' but it's a lot more informed than just watching a 5 minute YouTube.

And now it's 5-minutes-worth more informed.

[helmuth_hubener]

Also, I'm sure you already know this, and I already alluded to it, but since you give no indication of knowing it, and every indication of not knowing it: Square does integrate with MICROS.

Of course, you say boss man hates MICROS. So maybe set him up with Revel instead.

[Ronin Truth]

http://search.dell.com/results.aspx?...iness%20server


http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/search.asp?keywords=small+business+server

[presence]

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/search.asp?keywords=small+business+server

I don't think what tiger direct is calling a "server" and what Gunny needs are the same things. This is a restaurant/bar not a super-grocery/big-box store. A traditional "server" is storing and serving tons of data; in today's age that means 20+ TB. Unless I'm misunderstanding things, POS servers really only require a single 240G drive and a backup; I would personally put my OS and apps on a stand alone 60G. We're really in the market for a glorified desktop; not a modern "data server".

[Ronin Truth]

I don't think what tiger direct is calling a "server" and what Gunny needs are the same things. This is a restaurant/bar not a super-grocery/big-box store. A traditional "server" is storing and serving tons of data; in today's age that means 20+ TB. Unless I'm misunderstanding things, POS servers really only require a single 240G drive and a backup; I would personally put my OS and apps on a stand alone 60G. We're really in the market for a glorified desktop; not a modern "data server".

How about considering some of the other 490 tiger small business server options? No guarantees that the perfect solution would be on page 1.

[presence]

How about considering some of the other 490 tiger small business server options? No guarantees that the perfect solution would be on page 1.

There are really less than 50; and many of them are based on the platform above... the rest of the search results are for symantec licenses.

Symantec Backup Exec 15 Small Business Agent for Windows - License + 1 Year Essential Support - 1 server - EDU - Symantec Buying Programs : Academic - level S ( 1+ ) - Win

Item#: SQ8-102931598 | Model#: QOO6WZF0-EI1AS

I'm saying that a better criteria for his described needs is "desktop" class rather than "server" class. He's not serving big data so why spend money in the direction of RAID etc. architecture.