In the beginning was the λόγος ...

[Ronin Truth]

In the beginning was the λόγος ...
(John 1:1)

The word λόγος (logos) in the prologue of John's Gospel is a word with a very interesting history in ancient theological writings. It is translated 'Word' in English versions, but this translation does not express everything that the term would have suggested to ancient readers.

For the benefit of students, on this page I have reproduced discussions of the term λόγος by four New Testament scholars:

Marvin Vincent, Frederic Godet, Hugh Mackintosh, and John Campbell. Vincent, whose explanation I think will be found most helpful, briefly explains what the word meant in the context of theological discourse in the milieu of Hellenistic Judaism (especially after Philo), and he argues that John "used the term Logos with an intent to facilitate the passage from the current theories of his time to the pure gospel which he proclaimed." Godet and Mackintosh are largely in agreement with Vincent, and Campbell also agrees, though he evidently does not share the others' high view of Scripture. After these excerpts I add Wilhelm Nestle’s more general discussion of the philosophy of Philo from his revision of Zeller’s Outlines of the History of Greek Philosophy.

My own opinion is that the contemporary Hellenistic understanding of logos in theological contexts (esp. in Philo) should not be discounted by those who wish to understand John's meaning. The contrasts between Philo and John, which the scholars here want to emphasize, should not obscure the fact that John is using a word which was already full of meaning for Jewish readers in his day. When he asserts that the logos became flesh he is indeed saying something that was never dreamt of by Philo or the Greek philosophers; but in all other respects it is their logos — the cosmic Mediator between God and the world, who is the personification of God's Truth and Wisdom — that John is referring to when he asserts that Christ is its incarnation.

M.D.M.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/logos.html

[presence]

there's a great wiki on this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos

[Ronin Truth]

there's a great wiki on this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos

Thanks!

[wizardwatson]

Sounds to me like how "Tao" is used. Maybe a better translation would have been the "way" existed and then became flesh. The sense in which Jesus says, "I am the way" seems more fitting for John 1:1, as I don't recall him ever saying "I am the Word". He uses "words" in an ownership sense, as commands, but he uses "way" to describe his being.

[Ronin Truth]

Sounds to me like how "Tao" is used. Maybe a better translation would have been the "way" existed and then became flesh. The sense in which Jesus says, "I am the way" seems more fitting for John 1:1, as I don't recall him ever saying "I am the Word". He uses "words" in an ownership sense, as commands, but he uses "way" to describe his being.

Perhaps Jesus was studying the Tao Te Ching of Lao Tsu during those missing 20ish years.

[Sola_Fide]

Perhaps Jesus was studying the Tao Te Ching of Lao Tsu during those missing 20ish years.

How can the God who created all things and knows everything and gives knowledge itself to man need to study pagan philosophy which contradicts His truth?

[Ronin Truth]

How can the God who created all things and knows everything and gives knowledge itself to man need to study pagan philosophy which contradicts His truth?

Perhaps he was visiting in China and just wanted to.

LOL!

[Sola_Fide]

Perhaps he was visiting in China and just wanted to.

LOL!

Jesus created the universe, the world, China, and all the people in it and every other single thing that exists. He also gives the knowledge that every single person in China has and every other person who has ever existed and will exist has.

So...why would the Creator of everything need to visit China and get ideas from paganism?

[Ronin Truth]

Jesus created the universe, the world, China, and all the people in it and every other single thing that exists. He also gives the knowledge that every single person in China has and every other person who has ever existed and will exist has.

So...why would the Creator of everything need to visit China and get ideas from paganism?

Where did I say need? How long did he live in Egypt?

[erowe1]

Where did I say need? How long did he live in Egypt?

We don't know exactly. But not more than about 2 years as a baby. Maybe less.

[Ronin Truth]

We don't know exactly. But not more than about 2 years as a baby. Maybe less.

Then how do we know, not more than about 2 years as a baby, maybe less? Did Herod give up looking? Or did he just figure that he got him?

[The Northbreather]

Nephilim.........

[Matt McGuire]

Sounds to me like how "Tao" is used. Maybe a better translation would have been the "way" existed and then became flesh. The sense in which Jesus says, "I am the way" seems more fitting for John 1:1, as I don't recall him ever saying "I am the Word". He uses "words" in an ownership sense, as commands, but he uses "way" to describe his being.

As a matter of fact, Tao is the word used in most Chinese translations of John's Prologue.
Here's a somewhat relevant book if you're interested.

[TER]

As a matter of fact, Tao is the word used in most Chinese translations of John's Prologue.
Here's a somewhat relevant book if you're interested.

Great book. This old thread makes reference to this book.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...os-and-the-Tao

[specsaregood]

Perhaps he was visiting in China and just wanted to.
LOL!

I thought he went to japan.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...354242/?no-ist

[Ronin Truth]

As a matter of fact, Tao is the word used in most Chinese translations of John's Prologue.
Here's a somewhat relevant book if you're interested.

book! Thanks!

[erowe1]

Then how do we know, not more than about 2 years as a baby, maybe less? Did Herod give up looking? Or did he just figure that he got him?

Yes. Herod gave up looking when he died in 4 BC.

[Ronin Truth]

I thought he went to japan.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...354242/?no-ist

I've also heard that India was a probability. You can make up all kinds of interesting speculations from a mystery missing 20 years.

[Ronin Truth]

Yes. Herod gave up looking when he died in 4 BC.

Yeah, that probably would tend to put a damper on the purge.

[wizardwatson]

How can the God who created all things and knows everything and gives knowledge itself to man need to study pagan philosophy which contradicts His truth?

Your pagan conflation of the Son with the Father aside (in post after this one) which I'm simply tired of addressing with you, here's another piece of information you seem to have misunderstood in your quest for eternal election.

Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

"Jesus learned". I know, it's very profound. Some say he pooped as well.

[Sola_Fide]

Your pagan conflation of the Son with the Father aside (in post after this one) which I'm simply tired of addressing with you, here's another piece of information you seem to have misunderstood in your quest for eternal election.



"Jesus learned". I know, it's very profound. Some say he pooped as well.

Yes, Jesus veiled some of His glory when He became incarnate. He took the form of a slave, as the book of Phillipians says. He ate, drank, pooped, had emotions, had knowledge of future events at some times and one time said He didn't know something. This is because he veiled some of His glory when He put on flesh.

As for the "pagan conflation of the Father and the Son", I told you that no Trinitarian conflates the Father and the Son. Every Trinitarian emphasizes the distinction between the persons in the Trinity.

But, if you are saying that it is "paganism" to say that the Son is God, then you are severely confused. It's the opposite.

[wizardwatson]

Yes, Jesus veiled some of His glory when He became incarnate. He took the form of a slave, as the book of Phillipians says. He ate, drank, pooped, had emotions, had knowledge of future events at some times and one time said He didn't know something. This is because he veiled some of His glory when He put on flesh.

As for the "pagan conflation of the Father and the Son", I told you that no Trinitarian conflates the Father and the Son. Every Trinitarian emphasizes the distinction between the persons in the Trinity.

But, if you are saying that it is "paganism" to say that the Son is God, then you are severely confused. It's the opposite.

God is a proper name. It refers to the Father. Jesus would not allow himself to be called God. The Holy Spirit is not God.

In the beginning GOD created heaven and earth, not Jesus. "Lord" means master, not God. Yes God was ALSO called Lord but he gave the "Lordly authority" to Jesus, that doesn't mean He made Jesus God. Jesus has authority but it's still the Father's will being done, which Jesus clearly says many, many times.

You and the legions of others out there like you need to reeducate yourselves on basic principles and meanings of words.

You saying Jesus created the world is just ridiculous. The fact that you think it's quite normal to say such a thing and call be a pagan/heretic for speaking the plain truth of the matter shows how corrupt the current teachings of the word are and gives credence to this:

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

Notice it says, "Lord God". Do you see that God is a NAME? Lord Jesus..Lord God. Not God God. Wake up dude.

[Sola_Fide]

You saying Jesus created the world is just ridiculous. The fact that you think it's quite normal to say such a thing and call be a pagan/heretic for speaking the plain truth of the matter shows how corrupt the current teachings of the word are and gives credence to this:

No, it's what the Bible says:

Colossians 1:16-17

For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Jesus created everything.

[Ronin Truth]

No, it's what the Bible says:



Jesus created everything.

Or was it Paul's deity, Mithras?

[Sola_Fide]

Or was it Paul's deity, Mithras?

Since Paul affirmed the deity of Jesus in the passage I just quoted, and said Jesus was the one God who created all things, your statement here is just completely nuts. No foundation for it at all.

[wizardwatson]

Since Paul affirmed the deity of Jesus in the passage I just quoted, and said Jesus was the one God who created all things, your statement here is just completely nuts. No foundation for it at all.

Once again I would like to suggest the "Paultard" and "No one but Paul" memes be transferred from Ron Paul to the self-deifying Saul of Tarsus who the Paulinists seem to think has the power to transfer ownership rights of the universe from God to His Son.

You know what the real miracle of the Holy Spirit is, Sola? That He comforted this wicked generation enough to allow these contradictions between Paul and Jesus and God to even show up in scripture, because if the Paulinists would've had their way I'm sure the four gospels and the books of Moses and the prophets would've been completely rewritten at his request to align with his "enlightened" Satanic thinking had he been given that power by God.

[Ronin Truth]

Since Paul affirmed the deity of Jesus in the passage I just quoted, and said Jesus was the one God who created all things, your statement here is just completely nuts. No foundation for it at all.

How did I miss the explicit Jesus reference in that Paul quote. Oh yeah, probably because it's nowhere in there to be found, Paulinist goober.

Does insanity tend to run in your family, or has it just all started with you?

You do realize that you can be sent to hell for eternity for lying, just as well as for stealing, don't you?

[heavenlyboy34]

[QUOTE=wizardwatson;5879659]Your pagan conflation of the Son with the Father aside (in post after this one) which I'm simply tired of addressing with you, here's another piece of information you seem to have misunderstood in your quest for eternal election.



"Jesus learned". I know, it's very profound. Some say he pooped as well.[ QUOTE]
[QUOTE=wizardwatson;5879659]]Once again I would like to suggest the "Paultard" and "No one but Paul" memes be transferred from Ron Paul to the self-deifying Saul of Tarsus who the Paulinists seem to think has the power to transfer ownership rights of the universe from God to His Son.

You know what the real miracle of the Holy Spirit is, Sola? That He comforted this wicked generation enough to allow these contradictions between Paul and Jesus and God to even show up in scripture, because if the Paulinists would've had their way I'm sure the four gospels and the books of Moses and the prophets would've been completely rewritten at his request to align with his "enlightened" Satanic thinking had he been given that power by God.[/QUOTE]

The Oneness/undivided nature of the Trinity is not pagan-though some pagans accept it. It's Orthodox in origin.