Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 39

Thread: What If Everybody Didn't Have to Work to Get Paid?

  1. #1

    What If Everybody Didn't Have to Work to Get Paid?


    ...

    Many experts believe that, unlike in the 20th century, people in this century will not be able to stay one step ahead of automation through education and the occasional skills upgrade. A recent study from Oxford University warns that 47 percent of all existing jobs are susceptible to automation within the next two decades. Worries about robots replacing human labor are showing up more frequently in the mainstream media, including the front page of The Wall Street Journal. Recent books, such as The Second Machine Age and Who Owns the Future, predict that when it comes to robots and labor, this time is different.

    People in other countries, especially in safety-net-friendly Europe, seem more open to the idea of a basic income than people in the U.S. The Swiss are considering a basic income proposal. Most of the candidates in Finland’s upcoming parliamentary elections support the idea. But in the U.S., the issue is still a political non-starter for mainstream politicians, due to lingering suspicions about the fairness and practicality of a basic income, as well as a rejection of the premise that automation is actually erasing white-collar jobs. Hence Santens’ do-it-yourself approach.

    “My solution was to turn to crowdfunding, so as to immediately empower myself and others to advocate for the basic incomes of everyone else,” Santens says.

    Unlike most crowdfunders, Santens is not asking for seed money for a specific project, like a tech startup, a nonprofit organization, or a feature film. Nor is he asking for money for a specific problem like unpaid medical bills. He’s asking for free money to live his life. Any additional money that he crowdfunds, above $1,000 per month, will be donated to other basic-income activists who are doing the same thing. However, he will keep other money that he earns from working as a freelance writer. He says the same thing would happen with a government-funded basic income: People would keep the additional money they earn from their jobs.

    The crowdfunding approach to basic income has shown some promise: A group of more than 19,000 basic-income advocates in Germany have funded 11 people so far with living stipends of 1,000 euros per month, no strings attached. The first few winners, chosen by a lottery, started receiving their basic incomes in September 2014. The eleventh winner was announced May 7.

    Jason Burke Murphy, a basic-income activist and philosophy professor at Elms College in Massachusetts, has been following the German project with delight. “This project worked better than I thought it would,” he says. “The numbers of visits and the media response was really impressive.” Indeed, the stories told by the winners are inspiring. For example, one recipient is using his newfound freedom to write his dissertation. Another winner quit his job at a call center to study and become a teacher. Perhaps one anonymous commentator summed it up best: “I did not realize how unfree we all are.”

    Santens’ crowdfunding foray has been embraced not only by liberals or progressives who are warm to government benefits but by some libertarians as well, such as Matt Zwolinski, a philosophy professor at the University of San Diego. In his view, a basic income would shrink the bureaucratic nightmare of the current $1 trillion social safety net. He applauds Santens’ effort because it provides proof that basic income can work without government involvement.

    “A lot of people assume that if social insurance, or mail delivery, or a basic income is a good idea, then it automatically follows that we ought to have the state administer it,” says Zwolinski. “But it doesn’t automatically follow at all. Sometimes—I think a lot of times—important social goals are better realized through voluntary decentralized action than through the kind of coercive centralized control characteristic of the modern state.”


    However, other basic-income advocates are skeptical of crowdfunded projects. “If this helps a few activists to get visibility for the concept and spend their time drumming up support, then I think it could be a positive, but likely very marginal, development,” says Martin Ford, a basic-income advocate and the author of The Rise of the Robots—which predicts a rapidly expanding takeover of jobs by automated systems. “The sad reality is that a lot of the people who will most need a basic income are not likely to generate a lot of sympathy among volunteer donors,” Ford says. “You see this already with charitable giving—people will give for families, children, and pets—but not so much for single homeless men.” Ford cautions against what he calls the “libertarian/techno-optimistic fantasy” of a private market solution. “Government, for all its deficiencies, is going to be the only real tool in the toolbox here.”

    Those skeptical of basic income might ask: If you give people enough to live on, won’t they stop working? Won’t they get lazy? Evidence from pilot studies by Guy Standing, a professor of development studies at the University of London and a co-founder of the Basic Income Earth Network, points the other way.“When people stop working out of fear, they become more productive,” Standing says.

    Karl Widerquist, a leader of the worldwide basic income movement, applauds Santens’ project, but says the goal of the movement is not to create privately financed basic income. “We need a publicly financed basic income for everyone; private charities can’t—and shouldn’t have to—do that,” says Widerquist, a philosophy professor at SFS-Qatar, Georgetown University, and the author of several books and papers about basic income. Widerquist also organized the most recent North American Basic Income Guarantee Congress in New York in March. “The point of a private basic income is to show how well it works, draw attention to the issue, and further the movement for a truly universal basic income,” Widerquist says.

    ...
    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...t-paid/393428/



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #2
    I think we get into a bad place when we start separating income from work. I think we lose empathy for others when we lose the value of work and money. Look at Congress. They are clueless.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  4. #3
    I'm not saying it is "ideal" but I would prefer a system of social safety net which was based on "basic income" / "citizen's dividend" to the current paradigm of welfare for those who feign neediness the loudest.

    However for it to work you need to deregulate business; eliminate licensing schemes, and remove price controls on labor.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by tobismom View Post
    I think we get into a bad place when we start separating income from work. I think we lose empathy for others when we lose the value of work and money. Look at Congress. They are clueless.
    Human labor in the service sector is going to see a dramatic shift. The market via robotics and automation over the next 10-20 years will be doing just that...separating income from work as human labor will be needed less and less in many areas.

    It'll be interesting to see how our culture of regulatory capture will play out. When a few wealthy people own all the machines providing food, energy, and transportation for whatever prices they want to set. Combined with the non-stop influx of immigration, something is going to break.

  6. #5
    If we reach that level of automation, each unit of human labor will be worth more than it is now. So, I think we will still have a labor-based economy, but it might be possible for a person to earn a comfortable living with 20 or 25 hours of work per week rather than more. Less work, but spread across a similar number of people.

  7. #6
    If anything, our labor is going to be MORE attached to our income. Not less.

    Imagine being paid by the minute. Not weekly, not bi-weekly, every minute you work, you get paid. Likewise, every minute you consume something can be deducted as well. Your little IWatch can track your balance as you go. You will be able to see easily where your money comes from and where it is going - in near real time. That's automation. (And a handy little incentive for people to produce more than they consume.)

    The idea that the future is bleak with automation is silly and incredibly naïve. Human wants are unlimited. If things are able to be made and delivered more cheaply, there will be other things to spend our money on. No matter what. Things you can't even conceive now.

    Therefore, the whole faulty premise of this piece is silly. But then to make another leap into thinking that each person should have a "basic income" for not producing anything?!! Um... Your income is a reflection of what you produce. If you produce nothing, why should you get something? For the privilege of the rest of the world sharing the air with you?
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  8. #7
    Really interesting to think about if robotics / automation could eventually run mostly independently. It puts a different perspective on the economy.

    So what if I was the owner of a chain of fully automated pizzerias including delivery by drone? I guess I'd have to spend money on electricity, shipping pizza ingredients to my stores, and maintenance of the pizza cooking and delivery apparatus and occasional service calls from a human repair man I suppose.

    If most stores in my area operate this way, how the hell can people get jobs to earn money to buy my pizza? We can imagine there will always be jobs that robots can't handle that require human creativity, but not everyone can do that kind of work.

    It seems like there would have to be a new kind of economic model to handle this. What if ultimately, I get in a position where my business is so automated, I barely have to deal with it? Robots handle the cooking and delivery while computers efficiently handle data-basing, tracking inventory, and ordering? I as the business owner get to make money without working? Suppose I hear a proposal that since automation has eliminated jobs, people will just be given basic income for nothing?

    All that sets me apart really is I put in risk and I own a company, but I sit on my ass because everything is automated. Is that enough for me to be indignant at these other people getting money for nothing while I mostly sit around collecting my money from them?

    It's a tricky situation. It kind of seems like if you want to redistribute money in a situation like this, what you really have going on is a system where money loses it's meaning.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    If anything, our labor is going to be MORE attached to our income. Not less.

    Imagine being paid by the minute. Not weekly, not bi-weekly, every minute you work, you get paid. Likewise, every minute you consume something can be deducted as well. Your little IWatch can track your balance as you go. You will be able to see easily where your money comes from and where it is going - in near real time. That's automation. (And a handy little incentive for people to produce more than they consume.)
    Try being a truck driver where you usually get paid per mile.



  10. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  11. #9
    What If Everybody Didn't Have to Work to Get Paid?

    I'd start getting paid for all the work I actually do?

  12. #10
    If your job ever gets automated, you can start a new career as a politician. That job isnt going away any time soon.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by bxm042 View Post
    If your job ever gets automated, you can start a new career as a politician. That job isnt going away any time soon.
    What if the politicians were robots?

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    What if the politicians were robots?
    Then I will welcome my robot overlords, and hope they treat me well.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    What if the politicians were robots?
    Lol

    I'd like to see Watson in the Primary Debates.


  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    If we reach that level of automation, each unit of human labor will be worth more than it is now. So, I think we will still have a labor-based economy, but it might be possible for a person to earn a comfortable living with 20 or 25 hours of work per week rather than more. Less work, but spread across a similar number of people.
    That is fine if your paycheck stays the same- but your employer isn't going to give you the same pay to work less. If you were working 40 hours and now are working 20 your paycheck will probably be half what it is now. But you will have more free time on your hands.

  17. #15

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by VIDEODROME View Post
    Try being a truck driver where you usually get paid per mile.
    Try being a truck driver when the trucking industry is run by automated trucks. As things stand there will nedd to be a human "alert at the wheel." But, what is that worth in terms of wages?



  19. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  20. #17
    "Idle hands are the devil's workshop."

    I don't have any evidence to back up this claim, but I have long held the opinion that the reason children seem to get in more trouble these days, is that they are not exhausted from doing chores. Although I'm not as confident of this idea anymore. Kids seem to keep occupied with sports and video games. I know parents who are exausted from running their children around to various sporting events and other activities, the children have to be somewhat tired as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRey View Post
    Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat

    Peace.

  21. #18
    I SWAG, prices would skyrocket.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Rogue View Post
    I don't have any evidence to back up this claim, but I have long held the opinion that the reason children seem to get in more trouble these days, is that they are not exhausted from doing chores.
    They see through our BS we are desperately trying to hide. They know the system has nothing to offer, yet their parents have accepted a slave mentality for the lack of options.
    Last edited by timosman; 08-10-2015 at 08:43 AM.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    I'm not saying it is "ideal" but I would prefer a system of social safety net which was based on "basic income" / "citizen's dividend" to the current paradigm of welfare for those who feign neediness the loudest.

    However for it to work you need to deregulate business; eliminate licensing schemes, and remove price controls on labor.

    I wonder if this guy will ever be able to make a living on one of his ideas. I don't know what it takes to start a business in Finland but here, I know the few hundered bucks a month he gets in UBI wouldn't cut it.

    I'm with presence on this but I believe if all those things (bolded above - with the addition of real tax reform) were done, we probably wouldn't need UBI.



    A basic income for everyone? Yes, Finland shows it really can work

    ...

    Ask Järvinen what difference money for nothing has made to his life, and you are marched over to his workshop. Inside is film-making equipment, a blackboard on which is scrawled plans for an artists’ version of Airbnb, and an entire little room where he makes shaman drums that sell for up to €900. All this while helping to bring up six children. All those free euros have driven him to work harder than ever.

    None of this would have been possible before he received UBI. Until this year, Järvinen was on dole money; the Finnish equivalent of the jobcentre was always on his case about job applications and training. Ideas flow out of Järvinen as easily as water from a tap, yet he could exercise none of his initiative for fear of arousing bureaucratic scrutiny.

    ...

    That was Järvinen, too, until this year. Just as with so many Britons on social security, he was trapped in a “humiliating” system that gave him barely enough to feed himself, while refusing him even a glimmer of a hope of fulfilment.


    So what accounted for his change? Certainly not the UBI money. In Finland, €560 is less than a fifth of average private-sector income. “You have to be a magician to survive on such money,” Järvinen says. Over and over, he baldly describes himself as “poor”.

    His liberation came in the lack of conditions attached to the money. If they so wish, Finns on UBI can bank the cash and do nothing else. But, in Järvinen’s case at least, the sum has removed the fear of utter destitution, freeing him to do work he finds meaningful.

    ...
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ome?CMP=twt_gu


    Edited to add...

    I'm not sure why the dude featured in the article is woodworking in a top hat, lol. Maybe he's dressing for the job he wants?

    Last edited by Suzanimal; 10-31-2017 at 06:37 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  24. #21
    LibForestPaul
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by muh_roads View Post
    Human labor in the service sector is going to see a dramatic shift. The market via robotics and automation over the next 10-20 years will be doing just that...separating income from work as human labor will be needed less and less in many areas.

    It'll be interesting to see how our culture of regulatory capture will play out. When a few wealthy people own all the machines providing food, energy, and transportation for whatever prices they want to set. Combined with the non-stop influx of immigration, something is going to break.
    Hasn't this already taken place. Mondelez, Kraft, ADM?

    All industries are shrinking and merging. Pharmaceuticals, banking, Food Retailers, Food Produces, Healthcare. ALL OF THEM

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    If we reach that level of automation, each unit of human labor will be worth more than it is now. So, I think we will still have a labor-based economy, but it might be possible for a person to earn a comfortable living with 20 or 25 hours of work per week rather than more. Less work, but spread across a similar number of people.
    Correct. 20-25 hours working, 20-25 hours commuting. Perfect.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Edited to add...

    I'm not sure why the dude featured in the article is woodworking in a top hat, lol. Maybe he's dressing for the job he wantps?

    Doorman at a fancy hotel?

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by LibForestPaul View Post
    Hasn't this already taken place. Mondelez, Kraft, ADM?

    All industries are shrinking and merging. Pharmaceuticals, banking, Food Retailers, Food Produces, Healthcare. ALL OF THEM
    haha, this is quite the post necro. But yeah, it is definitely happening fast, you're right.

    I'm part of the problem. I embrace our automated overlords. Amazon is such a good deal (especially with their 5%-15% cash back credit card) and ships so amazingly fast. My groceries, almost everything is delivered to me now.



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    What if the politicians were robots?
    How do you know they are not robots?

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    Doorman at a fancy hotel?
    I was thinking he wanted to be moneybags but your guess is more realistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  31. #27
    Somebody will figure out a superior good or service to trade with others and dramatically increase their personal wealth.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by VIDEODROME View Post
    Really interesting to think about if robotics / automation could eventually run mostly independently. It puts a different perspective on the economy.

    So what if I was the owner of a chain of fully automated pizzerias including delivery by drone? I guess I'd have to spend money on electricity, shipping pizza ingredients to my stores, and maintenance of the pizza cooking and delivery apparatus and occasional service calls from a human repair man I suppose.

    If most stores in my area operate this way, how the hell can people get jobs to earn money to buy my pizza? We can imagine there will always be jobs that robots can't handle that require human creativity, but not everyone can do that kind of work.

    It seems like there would have to be a new kind of economic model to handle this. What if ultimately, I get in a position where my business is so automated, I barely have to deal with it? Robots handle the cooking and delivery while computers efficiently handle data-basing, tracking inventory, and ordering? I as the business owner get to make money without working? Suppose I hear a proposal that since automation has eliminated jobs, people will just be given basic income for nothing?

    All that sets me apart really is I put in risk and I own a company, but I sit on my ass because everything is automated. Is that enough for me to be indignant at these other people getting money for nothing while I mostly sit around collecting my money from them?

    It's a tricky situation. It kind of seems like if you want to redistribute money in a situation like this, what you really have going on is a system where money loses it's meaning.

    I've come to the conclusion that we as humans are merely the bio-interface between two worlds. That is the digital world or cyber world and that of the physical world or reality.

    Think of it like this, The google maps vehicle transfers reality into a digital format for us to see other places on the planet in a digital way. Pretty soon the driver of that vehicle will be a robot. Now add VR technology and Hard Light Technology were going to be blending two realities into one.

    The only reason you need a human is to perform a task that a robot is incapable of doing or is to costly (at this moment) to operate. That includes sexbots.

    https://realbotix.systems/
    Last edited by Pauls' Revere; 11-07-2017 at 08:37 AM.

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  33. #29
    humans have needs that robots can't fill. Jobs of the future will fill, creative, emotional, spiritual, etc. needs.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by VIDEODROME View Post
    So what if I was the owner of a chain of fully automated pizzerias including delivery by drone? I guess I'd have to spend money on electricity, shipping pizza ingredients to my stores, and maintenance of the pizza cooking and delivery apparatus and occasional service calls from a human repair man I suppose.

    If most stores in my area operate this way, how the hell can people get jobs to earn money to buy my pizza?
    Your pizzas would be cheap enough that people could find enough change lying in the street to buy one. Assuming your competition wasn't regulated or licensed away. Many jobs that people have now would be gone, but others would take their place. The only difference is pizza would more affordable for everyone. What a $#@!ty deal, I suppose.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Amsterdam Has a Deal for Alcoholics: Work Paid in Beer
    By CaseyJones in forum Open Discussion
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-07-2013, 07:10 AM
  2. So I have to go get paid work,
    By GunnyFreedom in forum Glen Bradley Forum
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 08-18-2013, 07:50 PM
  3. Get PAID to do liberty film and video work!
    By Matt Collins in forum Ron Paul Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-29-2012, 01:50 PM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-17-2012, 02:44 PM
  5. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-04-2010, 09:40 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •