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Thread: Justification by Faith Alone Verses

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    You like quotes, so I'll give you one that directly applies to you:

    Didn't come across in my browser. You want to spell it out?



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Didn't come across in my browser. You want to spell it out?
    "A theologian's epistemology controls his interpretation of the Bible. If his epistemology is not Christian, his exegesis will be systematically distorted. If he has no epistemology at all, his exegesis will be unsystematically distorted."

    All of those quotes you post from the Jesus Seminar idiots do not have a Christian epistemology, hence their exegesis of the Bible is systematically distorted. They mean nothing.

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    "A theologian's epistemology controls his interpretation of the Bible. If his epistemology is not Christian, his exegesis will be systematically distorted. If he has no epistemology at all, his exegesis will be unsystematically distorted."

    All of those quotes you post from the Jesus Seminar idiots do not have a Christian epistemology, hence their exegesis of the Bible is systematically distorted. They mean nothing.

    Actually that just MIGHT make some sense if:

    A) I was a "Christian"/Paulinist.

    or

    B) I was a theologian.

    Happily I'm neither.

    Jesus Said that He Is:

    The Water of Life

    John 4:13, 14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.The Good Shepherd

    John 10:10, 11 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.Eternal Life for His Sheep

    John 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one.The Way, The Truth and The Life

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.Jesus Invites All to Follow Him

    Seek the Kingdom of God First

    Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.Ask, Seek, Find

    Matthew 7:7,8 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.Jesus and the Children

    Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
    Gain the Whole World

    Mark 8:34-37 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?He Calls Sinners

    Luke 5:31, 32 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
    On What His Followers Should Do

    Be a Light in the World

    Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.Love Your Enemies

    Matthew 5:43-44 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;Do Unto Others

    Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.The Greatest Commandment: Love God and Your Neighbour


    Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.Be a Servant to Others

    Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Actually that just MIGHT make some sense if:

    A) I was a "Christian"/Paulinist.

    or

    B) I was a theologian.

    Happily I'm neither.
    Right, you are neither. Neither are the people that you quote in big bold letters. So neither you or them can understand the Bible.



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Right, you are neither. Neither are the people that you quote in big bold letters. So neither you or them can understand the Bible.
    That last bunch of my quotes are from Jesus, so I guess that you must think Jesus can't understand the Bible.

    Maybe the NT books by Paul may cause him some comprehension difficulties.

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    That last bunch of my quotes are from Jesus, so I guess that you must think Jesus can't understand the Bible.

    Maybe the NT books by Paul may cause him some comprehension difficulties.
    That statement right there proves my point that you don't have a Christian epistemology. Since you don't have a Christian epistemology, you don't understand anything and you make ridiculous statements like that.

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    That statement right there proves my point that you don't have a Christian epistemology. Since you don't have a Christian epistemology, you don't understand anything and you make ridiculous statements like that.
    I really don't think that a Paulinist has any room for considering ANYTHING ridiculous. But then again, there you go.

    Before you run off again, http://www.problemswithpaul.com/index.html

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    I really don't think that a Paulinist has any room for considering ANYTHING ridiculous. But then again, there you go.

    Before you run off again, http://www.problemswithpaul.com/index.html
    Your website is a run by a few nuts who think the true church died off and they are the true ones left. It's a cult. That's where you get your stupid ideas from.

    Jesus sent Paul to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews. Read the book of Acts to understand this.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Your website is a run by a few nuts who think the true church died off and they are the true ones left. It's a cult. That's where you get your stupid ideas from.

    Jesus sent Paul to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews. Read the book of Acts to understand this.
    Ran off again. Is that about 15-20 times now? Does anyone seriously wonder what he's scared of or care?

    “If Christianity needed an Anti-Christ, they need look no further than Paul.” -- The English philosopher Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832)

    “We have already noted that every teaching of Jesus was already in the literature of the day….. Paul, the founder of Christianity, the writer of half the NT, almost never quotes Jesus in his letters and writings." (Professor Smith in his “The World Religions”, p 330)

    “Paul created a theology of which none but the vaguest warrants can be found in the words of Christ…..Fundamentalism is the triumph of Paul over Christ.” --Will Durant (Philosopher)


    "Paul's words are not the Words of God. They are the words of Paul- a vast difference."
    --Bishop John S. Spong, Episcopal Bishop of Newark. (Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, p. 104, Harper San Francisco, 1991)


    "Paul insists that there is only one 'gospel of Christ' (Galatians 1:7), so why did later Christians accept as 'Scripture' four written gospels?" --Graham N. Stanton, “The Gospels and Jesus”, The Oxford Bible Series (1989), p.125

    Last edited by Ronin Truth; 05-24-2015 at 05:33 PM.

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Ran off again. Is that about 15-20 times now? Does anyone seriously wonder what he's scared of or care?

    “If Christianity needed an Anti-Christ, they need look no further than Paul.” -- The English philosopher Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832)

    “We have already noted that every teaching of Jesus was already in the literature of the day….. Paul, the founder of Christianity, the writer of half the NT, almost never quotes Jesus in his letters and writings." (Professor Smith in his “The World Religions”, p 330)

    “Paul created a theology of which none but the vaguest warrants can be found in the words of Christ…..Fundamentalism is the triumph of Paul over Christ.” --Will Durant (Philosopher)


    "Paul's words are not the Words of God. They are the words of Paul- a vast difference."
    --Bishop John S. Spong, Episcopal Bishop of Newark. (Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, p. 104, Harper San Francisco, 1991)


    "Paul insists that there is only one 'gospel of Christ' (Galatians 1:7), so why did later Christians accept as 'Scripture' four written gospels?" --Graham N. Stanton, “The Gospels and Jesus”, The Oxford Bible Series (1989), p.125


  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Your website is a run by a few nuts who think the true church died off and they are the true ones left. It's a cult. That's where you get your stupid ideas from.
    Now we know what the pot thinks of the kettle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Now we know what the pot thinks of the kettle.
    Oh the humanity! Is there no honor among trolls!?



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Now we know what the pot thinks of the kettle.
    I don't think the true church ever died off. That contradicts scripture.

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Another worthless Paulinist quote?

    Who cares?

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    I don't think the true church ever died off. That contradicts scripture.
    I'm sure you don't think it died off. That would make it impossible for you to think your particular cult is it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Another worthless Paulinist quote?

    Who cares?
    That doesn't have anything to do with "Paulinism" (whatever that is supposed to mean). It has to do with having a Christian epistemology before interpreting the text of the Bible. You don't have a Christian epistemology, which is why you are so confused and can't interpret the Bible correctly or understand it.

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    That doesn't have anything to do with "Paulinism" (whatever that is supposed to mean).
    Always cracks me up when someone claims to know what x isn't, and claims not to know what x is, all in the same breath.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 05-26-2015 at 08:48 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    That doesn't have anything to do with "Paulinism" (whatever that is supposed to mean). It has to do with having a Christian epistemology before interpreting the text of the Bible. You don't have a Christian epistemology, which is why you are so confused and can't interpret the Bible correctly or understand it.

    If it's "Christian" it has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with Paulinism.

    WAKE UP! GET A CLUE!

  22. #79
    Ronin, stop spamming my thread. Your posts are entirely worthless and don't add anything.

    @Sola_Fide- I think Catholics would have referred to us as cultic before Luther, based on your same reasoning (church apparently died out and there are only a few left). What would be your response to that?

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    Ronin, stop spamming my thread. Your posts are entirely worthless and don't add anything.

    @Sola_Fide- I think Catholics would have referred to us as cultic before Luther, based on your same reasoning (church apparently died out and there are only a few left). What would be your response to that?
    Oh, I don't believe the church ever died out or can ever die out. That's contradictory to many passages in Scripture.



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    Ronin, stop spamming my thread. Your posts are entirely worthless and don't add anything.

    @Sola_Fide- I think Catholics would have referred to us as cultic before Luther, based on your same reasoning (church apparently died out and there are only a few left). What would be your response to that?
    As are your lame posts.

    "7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." -- (King James Bible, Matthew)
    Last edited by Ronin Truth; 05-26-2015 at 09:50 AM.

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Oh, I don't believe the church ever died out or can ever die out. That's contradictory to many passages in Scripture.
    So, is there some particular reason that we can't find written evidence of Protestant style doctrine existing between the death of John the Apostle and Martin Luther? Is this particular claim of Catholics false? (ie. is there clear evidence of proto-protestants during that era).

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    So, is there some particular reason that we can't find written evidence of Protestant style doctrine existing between the death of John the Apostle and Martin Luther?
    The reason my friend is because much of Protestant ecclesiology, sacramental theology, soteriology, and eschatology was not invented until after the Reformation. In other words, it is a change from what the Christian people through the centuries believed and proclaimed.

    (ie. is there clear evidence of proto-protestants during that era).
    No, instead, what you get as evidence is selective picking of small fragments of certain verses from amongst the early writings of the Christian Church which often times out of context seems to support Reformed Protestant doctrines , while forgetting and ignoring a vast majority of the rest. (a common approach certain people have as well with the Scriptures). A chosen line from the Church Fathers is quoted as some proof, for example, yet the fact that every Church Father held in common certain fundamental doctrinal, ecclesiological, and liturgical beliefs they held as apostolic seems to fly over their heads. Or worse, they criticize, as if they consider themselves greater Christians than the ones we remember as Saints of the Church.

    You are asking all the right questions lately, Christian Liberty. May God continue to bless you on your journey.
    Last edited by TER; 05-29-2015 at 01:44 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    The reason my friend is because much of Protestant ecclesiology, sacramental theology, soteriology, and eschatology was not invented until after the Reformation. In other words, it is a change from what the Christian people through the centuries believed and proclaimed.
    Yeah, I know this is the EO position (eschatology, though? In what way? Protestantism really runs the gamut on eschatology, and I'm not aware of any distinctively "Protestant" eschatology.) I was curious what Sola_Fide says about it, as a fellow Protestant.



    No, instead, what you get as evidence is selective picking of small fragments of certain verses from amongst the early writings of the Christian Church which often times out of context seems to support Reformed Protestant doctrines , while forgetting and ignoring a vast majority of the rest. (a common approach certain people have as well with the Scriptures). A chosen line from the Church Fathers is quoted as some proof, for example, yet the fact that every Church Father held in common certain fundamental doctrinal, ecclesiological, and liturgical beliefs they held as apostolic seems to fly over their heads. Or worse, they criticize, as if they consider themselves greater Christians than the ones we remember as Saints of the Church.

    You are asking all the right questions lately, Christian Liberty. May God continue to bless you on your journey.
    Well, I have a recent convert to Catholicism that I'm hoping to be able to refute, so

    Blessings to you as well.

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    I believe that a saving faith includes works. If no works follow to prove it, it isn't a living faith.
    Basically, these are all extremely technical terms as you use them, with obscure definitions that require a lot of reading to understand, and then in the end your disagreement with all the people you think you disagree with boils down to a pure semantic one.

    "You need to have faith and do good works."
    "No, no, no, you fool! You just need to have faith! Of course, for that faith to count as real faith you must do good works. Otherwise it doesn't count."

    In other words, this is an issue that has and will have absolutely no relevance to any normal person anywhere, ever. They will not even comprehend what your point is.

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Basically, these are all extremely technical terms as you use them, with obscure definitions that require a lot of reading to understand, and then in the end your disagreement with all the people you think you disagree with boils down to a pure semantic one.

    "You need to have faith and do good works."
    "No, no, no, you fool! You just need to have faith! Of course, for that faith to count as real faith you must do good works. Otherwise it doesn't count."

    In other words, this is an issue that has and will have absolutely no relevance to any normal person anywhere, ever. They will not even comprehend what your point is.
    No, this is an issue that is foundational to Christian theology. Do works prove salvation or do works verify it? If you believe your works can actually save you, you aren't trusting in Christ alone and are so unregenerate.

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    No, this is an issue that is foundational to Christian theology. Do works prove salvation or do works verify it? If you believe your works can actually save you, you aren't trusting in Christ alone and are so unregenerate.
    Actually, helmuth_hubener hit the nail squarely on the head.

    Not that you don't have a point. You do. People who do works and count them, and keep a tally so they can argue the point on the Judgement Day, instead of opening their hearts to the point where they want to help their fellow humans, and just do it without thinking, are missing the point.

    But that does not make h_h wrong at all. And the most ironic part is that your primary compatriot in this great semantic hissy fit is the one continually bragging in several of his threads about how many views that thread was generating, and how much he was glorifying Jesus by starting and heating up that argument.

    If his and your purpose is to teach us how to do it wrong, so we can avoid making your mistakes, then good job!
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    Yeah, I know this is the EO position (eschatology, though? In what way? Protestantism really runs the gamut on eschatology, and I'm not aware of any distinctively "Protestant" eschatology.) I was curious what Sola_Fide says about it, as a fellow Protestant.
    I think his position is of a secret underground remnant of what he calls "Biblical Christians" of which he can name not one. Sort of like the movie The Avengers in terms of reality and historical proof.

    Well, I have a recent convert to Catholicism that I'm hoping to be able to refute, so
    I wish you well. Be careful, though, when you start digging deeper into the truth. You may find you have been seeing through an erroneous prism the entire time. Be prepared to become illuminated, that is to say. Perhaps it is not she who will become converted.

    Blessings to you as well.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ



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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    I think his position is of a secret underground remnant of what he calls "Biblical Christians" of which he can name not one. Sort of like the movie The Avengers in terms of reality and historical proof.
    I actually might agree with him.



    I wish you well. Be careful, though, when you start digging deeper into the truth. You may find you have been seeing through an erroneous prism the entire time. Be prepared to become illuminated, that is to say. Perhaps it is not he who will become converted.
    Fixed. But aside from that, I suspect that he won't. I certainly won't, however. I can read the Bible.

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    I actually might agree with him.
    Based on?
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

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