Justification by Faith Alone Verses

[Christian Liberty]

And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness (Romans 4:5)

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.… (Ephesians 2:8-9)

So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. (Romans 9:16)

Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, (Romans 9:32)

This is the gospel Paul preached to us. Then this:

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9)

If you deny sola fide, be careful.

[wizardwatson]

And why, friends, do the intellectuals love to pontificate about who is justified and where it comes from? Why do you concern yourself with whether you are "saved" or not? Shouldn't you just fear God and obey his commandments? Why worry? Why seek philosophical tools to assure and "console" yourself? Are you trying to convince yourself of something?

I take all this "justification" talk as nothing more than people trying to convince themselves that they are part of a special group of "saved" people.

BUT WHAT DOES CHRIST SAY ABOUT JUSTIFICATION?

Hmmmm?

Luke 18:9-14 9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house JUSTIFIED rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

So it seems to me Jesus said to remember that you aren't any better than a murderer and a tax collector if you want to be justified. This whole idea of even contemplating whether or not you are saved puts you in danger. You should always remember that you are no more worthy or smart or special or "elect" than anyone else. Jesus says THAT mentality is what will make you less "justified".

[Legend1104]

And why, friends, do the intellectuals love to pontificate about who is justified and where it comes from? Why do you concern yourself with whether you are "saved" or not? Shouldn't you just fear God and obey his commandments? Why worry? Why seek philosophical tools to assure and "console" yourself? Are you trying to convince yourself of something?

I take all this "justification" talk as nothing more than people trying to convince themselves that they are part of a special group of "saved" people.

BUT WHAT DOES CHRIST SAY ABOUT JUSTIFICATION?

Hmmmm?



So it seems to me Jesus said to remember that you aren't any better than a murderer and a tax collector if you want to be justified. This whole idea of even contemplating whether or not you are saved puts you in danger. You should always remember that you are no more worthy or smart or special or "elect" than anyone else. Jesus says THAT mentality is what will make you less "justified".

Well what does Christ say about justification? We should look at John chapter 3

There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

John the Baptist Exalts Christ
22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized. 24 For John had not yet been thrown into prison.

25 Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”

27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Christ speaks of the need to be born again but why and what does that mean and how?

Why? "19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

So it is because of sin and the evil deeds of man. If we do not " He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Thus, God's wrath is against those evil doers that do not believe in the Son.

What does it mean to be born again/believe in the Son? First it says we must be born of the Spirit. So believing on the Son is more hen just head knowledge; it involves a spiritual rebirth. What is this rebirth? Nicademous asked the same thing. Jesus said, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life." Jesus uses the story from the Old Testament. In which the people sinned, asked for forgiveness and repented, and were given physical salvation and forgiveness through their belief in the sacrifice of the bronze snake. In the same way Jesus is saying that repentance and entry into heaven and eternal salvation are through repentance of sins and forgive through the Son of God I.e. Jesus.

How? "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." God gave Christ to the world for the remission of sin. In what form was the giving. Just as God provided Abraham with a sacrifice in the place of his son, God provided a sacrifice for the world through His Son. Jesus verified this at his death on the cross when he stated that "it is accomplished." he didnt say "sorry God I failed." Since he verified that he succeeded, then we must understand that his death was the plan.

So in summarion, why is it that we should concern ourselves with whether we are saved or not, because if we are not born again then the wrath of God abides on us and we shall perish. Salvation I.e. justification is keeping Gods commandment and if we don't keep this commandment then we should rightfully fear the wrath of God.

[wizardwatson]

Well what does Christ say about justification? We should look at John chapter 3

There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

John the Baptist Exalts Christ
22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized. 24 For John had not yet been thrown into prison.

25 Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”

27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Christ speaks of the need to be born again but why and what does that mean and how?

Why? "19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

So it is because of sin and the evil deeds of man. If we do not " He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Thus, God's wrath is against those evil doers that do not believe in the Son.

What does it mean to be born again/believe in the Son? First it says we must be born of the Spirit. So believing on the Son is more hen just head knowledge; it involves a spiritual rebirth. What is this rebirth? Nicademous asked the same thing. Jesus said, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life." Jesus uses the story from the Old Testament. In which the people sinned, asked for forgiveness and repented, and were given physical salvation and forgiveness through their belief in the sacrifice of the bronze snake. In the same way Jesus is saying that repentance and entry into heaven and eternal salvation are through repentance of sins and forgive through the Son of God I.e. Jesus.

How? "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." God gave Christ to the world for the remission of sin. In what form was the giving. Just as God provided Abraham with a sacrifice in the place of his son, God provided a sacrifice for the world through His Son. Jesus verified this at his death on the cross when he stated that "it is accomplished." he didnt say "sorry God I failed." Since he verified that he succeeded, then we must understand that his death was the plan.

So in summarion, why is it that we should concern ourselves with whether we are saved or not, because if we are not born again then the wrath of God abides on us and we shall perish. Salvation I.e. justification is keeping Gods commandment and if we don't keep this commandment then we should rightfully fear the wrath of God.

The rebirth is not justification. The Kingdom of God and heaven and the resurrection and the millenial kingdom are all different things.

Being "saved" and being born again are like the beginning vs. the end. People have this binary interpretation of spiritual progression that just isn't biblical. Repentance and believing on Christ are but the beginning. You "must" be born again means that is the final destination. Your journey on the path is not some switch where you go from damned to zen master because you made the cut.

[Legend1104]

The rebirth is not justification. The Kingdom of God and heaven and the resurrection and the millenial kingdom are all different things.

Being "saved" and being born again are like the beginning vs. the end. People have this binary interpretation of spiritual progression that just isn't biblical. Repentance and believing on Christ are but the beginning. You "must" be born again means that is the final destination. Your journey on the path is not some switch where you go from damned to zen master because you made the cut.

I'm sorry but I really would love to have a discussion with you about this but I don't know where you stand i.e. what exactly your belief system is. It is vague and shadowed in nuance to me based solely off of what I have read from your posts (keep in mind I have not read nearly all of them). I can't retort to anything in your statement because I don't fully understand where you are coming from. Are you saying that you are saved through repentance and Believing on Christ (what do YOU mean by that?) gets you access to the Spirit of God, but that in order to gain eternal life (born again) you must continue to live according to God's commandments until the end of your life (journey)? Does that mean that you believe in works related salvation (keeping His commandments)? Who exactly is Christ to you if he is not divine (I can't remember if you believe he is)?

[Original_Intent]

Faith without works is dead.
Do you believe dead faith will save you?
Granted, works do not save you, but if you have faith, works will follow.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[Ronin Truth]

And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness (Romans 4:5)

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.… (Ephesians 2:8-9)

So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. (Romans 9:16)

Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, (Romans 9:32)

This is the gospel Paul preached to us. Then this:

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9)

If you deny sola fide, be careful.

Got any verses about that, that AREN'T from Paul?

[acptulsa]

Got any verses about that, that AREN'T from Paul?

What? You expect him to listen to Jesus?

You don't understand how it works. You have to worship Jesus, but you are never supposed to listen to Him. Worship Jesus, but listen to Paul.

Then you can pretend Paul was also God Incarnate, or at least was God's Mouth Incarnate, while pretending you aren't worshipping a mere mortal man.

[Legend1104]

Got any verses about that, that AREN'T from Paul?

What about Jesus brother James, or do you think he was a heretic too?
James 2:14-17

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

[Ronin Truth]

What about Jesus brother James, or do you think he was a heretic too?
James 2:14-17

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

James ain't Paul. Paul ain't Jesus. Paul is much worse than a heretic.

[Ronin Truth]

What? You expect him to listen to Jesus?

You don't understand how it works. You have to worship Jesus, but you are never supposed to listen to Him. Worship Jesus, but listen to Paul.

Then you can pretend Paul was also God Incarnate, or at least was God's Mouth Incarnate, while pretending you aren't worshipping a mere mortal man.

"Complexity is the essence of the con and the hustle."

[fisharmor]

What about Jesus brother James, or do you think he was a heretic too?
James 2:14-17

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Keep going...

"18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says,“Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.24You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead."

Also, this:

"If your papist annoys you with that word (i.e. alone), tell him straightaway: Doctor Martin Luther will have it so: Papists and asses are one and the same thing. Whoever will not have my translation, let him give it the go-by: the devil's thanks to him who censures it without my will and knowledge. LUTHER WILL HAVE IT SO, AND HE IS A DOCTOR ABOVE ALL THE DOCTORS IN POPEDOM."

Martin Luther added the word "alone" to Romans 3. This is not in dispute.

[TER]

Never saw that quote by Luther. Thanks for the info!

[acptulsa]

Martin Luther added the word "alone" to Romans 3. This is not in dispute.[/FONT][/SIZE]

See what you did?

Now they have to start worshipping Luther as God's Mouth Incarnate.

Better than losing their loophole and having to learn how to love their fellow man.

[TER]

Some of the greatest words on love spoken and written in the Holy Spirit of God were by the great Apostle Paul, who is the chosen and beloved one of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to spread the Gospel to the Gentiles. For so He told His Apostle Ananias, one of the Seventy sent out by our Lord. Saying:

"Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.” (Acts 9:15-16)

And Glory to God for granting the world such Saints, such martyrs and witnesses of the faith taught by the Messiah. These are the pillars of the faith, the bearers of Christ in the Holy Spirit, who glorify God by their lives and their deaths. May we too become such Saints, by the mercy and grace of God, to Whom all glory goes to!

May the Apostle of God intercede for us and for the world along with all the Saints! Glory to God!

[Ronin Truth]

Some of the greatest words on love spoken and written in the Holy Spirit of God were by the great Apostle Paul, who is the chosen and beloved one of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to spread the Gospel to the Gentiles. For so He told His Apostle Ananias, one of the Seventy sent out by our Lord. Saying:

"Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.” (Acts 9:15-16)

And Glory to God for granting the world such Saints, such martyrs and witnesses of the faith taught by the Messiah. These are the pillars of the faith, the bearers of Christ in the Holy Spirit, who glorify God by their lives and their deaths. May we too become such Saints, by the mercy and grace of God, to Whom all glory goes to!

May the Apostle of God intercede for us and for the world along with all the Saints! Glory to God!

Should we all designate you as Chief Paulinist of the RPF?

[Eagles' Wings]

Never saw that quote by Luther. Thanks for the info!

What was the quote from the reformer, Luther?

It looked like the poster was Martin Luther.

[Eagles' Wings]

@fisharmor: Would you please give that quote from Luther and the source? It was confusing to me.

[Eagles' Wings]

Some of the greatest words on love spoken and written in the Holy Spirit of God were by the great Apostle Paul, who is the chosen and beloved one of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to spread the Gospel to the Gentiles. For so He told His Apostle Ananias, one of the Seventy sent out by our Lord. Saying:

"Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.” (Acts 9:15-16)

And Glory to God for granting the world such Saints, such martyrs and witnesses of the faith taught by the Messiah. These are the pillars of the faith, the bearers of Christ in the Holy Spirit, who glorify God by their lives and their deaths. May we too become such Saints, by the mercy and grace of God, to Whom all glory goes to!

May the Apostle of God intercede for us and for the world along with all the Saints! Glory to God!

I agree with most of this post, TER, and would simply add that we, the believers in Christ, are saints. His mercy and grace is for us, His saints, and He will bring His saints into glory as He promises. We have the Ascended Lord, Crowned King, seated at the right hand of God, who has justified the believer, for past, present and future sins. That is my statement of faith, in Christ alone.

[Ronin Truth]

@fisharmor: Would you please give that quote from Luther and the source? It was confusing to me.

Perhaps some of this will be helpful.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...55.kSb3CvrX8Y4

[acptulsa]

What was the quote from the reformer, Luther?

It looked like the poster was Martin Luther.

Ummm...

And are we confusing Martin Luther with that other reformer, Martin Luther King, Jr?

[Christian Liberty]

Faith without works is dead.
Do you believe dead faith will save you?
Granted, works do not save you, but if you have faith, works will follow.

I believe that a saving faith includes works. If no works follow to prove it, it isn't a living faith.

However, these works are a fruit of right standing with God, not the source of that justification. Some say "why not just follow Jesus' commandments?" Well, I understand that we have to follow his commands. But, if you believe you can do that on your own, let alone doing it well enough to be justified before God, you are fooling yourself.

God demands PERFECT obedience. But the human cannot produce perfect obedience. So, either Christ's righteousness will be imputed to you, and you will stand before God with Christ's righteousness covering you, or you will be damned.

What? You expect him to listen to Jesus?

You don't understand how it works. You have to worship Jesus, but you are never supposed to listen to Him. Worship Jesus, but listen to Paul.

Then you can pretend Paul was also God Incarnate, or at least was God's Mouth Incarnate, while pretending you aren't worshipping a mere mortal man.

This is a misrepresentation.

Keep in mind, though, that Christ's words in the Bible are written down by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John respectively. Of those men, two knew Christ personally, the other two knew disciples of Christ. In other words, they had as much, or even less revelation than Paul had. Yet we still trust their record of Christ's words. So when Paul claims to be speaking for Christ, we should believe him as well, as his words are of scripture.

What about Jesus brother James, or do you think he was a heretic too?
James 2:14-17

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

James is saying that you can't just say "I have faith" and refuse to live it out. Such a faith is actually dead, the fact that it lacks works proves that it is not genuine. True faith will always include spirit-led works as evidence. But those works are a fruit of justification, not the basis for it.

[Christian Liberty]

Keep going...

"18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says,“Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.24You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead."

Also, this:



Martin Luther added the word "alone" to Romans 3. This is not in dispute.

OK, while I do believe God used Martin Luther to do something important (ie. to begin the reformation of the corrupt Catholic Church), he's not only not the be-all end-all of doctrine, he's really not even consistently logical. John Calvin was a fallible man to be sure, but I can generally trust that if he said something, it was at least well thought out in most cases. I can't really say the same thing for Luther. Nobody believes every single thing Luther believed, and I think that includes Luther. The man was a bit unhinged at times.

[Legend1104]

I believe that a saving faith includes works. If no works follow to prove it, it isn't a living faith.

However, these works are a fruit of right standing with God, not the source of that justification. Some say "why not just follow Jesus' commandments?" Well, I understand that we have to follow his commands. But, if you believe you can do that on your own, let alone doing it well enough to be justified before God, you are fooling yourself.

God demands PERFECT obedience. But the human cannot produce perfect obedience. So, either Christ's righteousness will be imputed to you, and you will stand before God with Christ's righteousness covering you, or you will be damned.



This is a misrepresentation.

Keep in mind, though, that Christ's words in the Bible are written down by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John respectively. Of those men, two knew Christ personally, the other two knew disciples of Christ. In other words, they had as much, or even less revelation than Paul had. Yet we still trust their record of Christ's words. So when Paul claims to be speaking for Christ, we should believe him as well, as his words are of scripture.


James is saying that you can't just say "I have faith" and refuse to live it out. Such a faith is actually dead, the fact that it lacks works proves that it is not genuine. True faith will always include spirit-led works as evidence. But those works are a fruit of justification, not the basis for it.

Sorry My bad. I completely misunderstood some of the previous posts on this subject. I totally agree with your statement. I was in no means trying to say that works is necessary for salvation.

[acptulsa]

This is a misrepresentation.

Don't try to convince me. I have no reason to care. Convince God.

Keep in mind, though, that Christ's words in the Bible are written down by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John respectively. Of those men, two knew Christ personally, the other two knew disciples of Christ. In other words, they had as much, or even less revelation than Paul had. Yet we still trust their record of Christ's words. So when Paul claims to be speaking for Christ, we should believe him as well, as his words are of scripture.

See, you're so caught up in trying to make dogma out of it, or preserve the dogma around it, as opposed to trying to understand it, that you've completely missed the point. Except for the change Martin Luther (unhinged, in your own estimation) admitted he made in making St. Paul, talking about faith, seem to have been writing about faith alone, no one is saying that the words of St. Paul came down to us inaccurately.

The point is, Jesus is God and Paul was not, if Paul contradicts Jesus it's Paul, or Luther, or someone who got it wrong, and the fact that Jesus did not transcribe His own words and Paul did means nothing at all to that and has no effect at all on that. Therefore, why do you and S_F keep vainly offering it as some sort of twisted, back door proof of divinity?

If Paul wasn't channeling the Lord like some first century Shirley McLaine, then Matthew couldn't get his history straight? That really counts as proof that St. Paul=Jesus (at least in Divine Wisdom) to you?

Doesn't follow, kid.

[Christian Liberty]

Don't try to convince me. I have no reason to care. Convince God.



See, you're so caught up in trying to make dogma out of it, or preserve the dogma around it, as opposed to trying to understand it, that you've completely missed the point. Except for the change Martin Luther (unhinged, in your own estimation) admitted he made in making St. Paul, talking about faith, seem to have been writing about faith alone, no one is saying that the words of St. Paul came down to us inaccurately.

The point is, Jesus is God and Paul was not, if Paul contradicts Jesus it's Paul, or Luther, or someone who got it wrong, and the fact that Jesus did not transcribe His own words and Paul did means nothing at all to that and has no effect at all on that. Therefore, why do you and S_F keep vainly offering it as some sort of twisted, back door proof of divinity?

If Paul wasn't channeling the Lord like some first century Shirley McLaine, then Matthew couldn't get his history straight? That really counts as proof that St. Paul=Jesus (at least in Divine Wisdom) to you?

Doesn't follow, kid.

Paul, as a man, was not equivalent to God.

But when he wrote scripture, God was speaking through him. That's the point. It wasn't Paul's words at all.

[Jamesiv1]

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[Jamesiv1]

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[acptulsa]

Paul, as a man, was not equivalent to God.

But when he wrote scripture, God was speaking through him. That's the point. It wasn't Paul's words at all.

My cat ate your dogma.

Gee, I'd have expected better quality and fewer bare, obvious contradictions from God. Indeed, I still do.

Go ahead and tell me Luther added the word 'alone' to your favorite verse of Romans because God made him do it. Or should I say God made Him do it...?

You seem to have mistaken me for someone who believes in God as Micromanager as you do.

[Christian Liberty]

My cat ate your dogma.

Gee, I'd have expected better quality and fewer bare, obvious contradictions from God. Indeed, I still do.

Go ahead and tell me Luther added the word 'alone' to your favorite verse of Romans because God made him do it. Or should I say God made Him do it...?

You seem to have mistaken me for someone who believes in God as Micromanager as you do.

Luther adding the word is irrelevant. He shouldn't have done that, but he got the meaning of the text correct. Doctrine is developed systematically and logically, not always clearly stated.