Baby Dies After Police Detain Doctor Rushing to Hospital to Save the Child’s Life

[HankRicther12]

What the $#@! are you talking about? You haven't "taken any $#@!" from "people like myself" because I haven't given you any "$#@!." I have addressed you politely and I have deliberately gone out of my way to explicitly and carefully qualify my remarks in order to account for your (obviously very touchy) sensibilities (as when I said "assuming (if only for the sake of argument) that ..." or "regardless of whether one believes 'all' or 'some' or 'none' ..."). I did not take any position at all on whether cops are "robbers" or not (the only reason I even used the word is because CL used it and you echoed it back at him in that part of your reply to CL to which I originally responded). I merely pointed out that just because cops don't directly pocket revenues garnered from tickets does not mean that they do not "get anything out of" being cops and writing tickets - regardless of whether or not one thinks they are "robbers" for doing so.

Apparently, though, you are incapable of dealing with any kind of correction or criticism, no matter how mild or qualified, without whining about how everyone else has "serious misconceptions." What, in anything I said, is false or misconceived? Quote it. Specify it. You have yet to do any such thing, though you seem to imagine that you have. (For example, you complain about cops being called "pigs" a hundred times more often than they are called "heroes" - which does absolutely nothing to disprove my claim that they are nevertheless very often lauded by many as being "heroes" merely because they are cops, and that is one of the things that they "get out of" being cops. And that's not to mention the fact that in my previous post I explicitly accounted for and made reference to the "opprobrium" directed at cops - here's a hint: "opprobrium" includes things like being called "pigs").

Frankly, you don't seem to be able to do anything but repeatedly whine about how you are the only one who really understands anything because you worked in a jail a long time ago - and so anyone who has the temerity to take issue with anything you say should just shut the $#@! up and stop "giving you $#@!" ...

My goodness, really? You honestly don't get that I wasn't saying YOU gave me $#@!, I said people LIKE you, ie the people I dealt with in and out of the jail who had your mentality about cops. No, you personally have not been rude to me, I never said you were, you misunderstood.

[acptulsa]

Is there a link to this petition?



Surely you're joking with this right? Excessive speed is one of the biggest contributors to car wrecks and every 10 miles of speed can literally be the difference between life and death.


SPEEDING FACTS

• Speed was a factor in 30 percent (12,477) of all traffic fatalities in 1998, second only to alcohol (39 percent) as a cause of fatal crashes.
• (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, or NHTSA, 1999)
• In 1998, 40,000 people were critically injured in speeding-related crashes, 72,000 were moderately injured and 599,000 received minor injuries. (NHTSA, 1999)
• The economic cost to society of speeding-related crashes is estimated at $27.7 billion per year. (NHTSA, 1999)
• Crash forces on impact double with every 10 mile per hour increase in speed above 50 miles per hour. As crash forces increase, so does one�s chances of being killed or seriously injured in a crash. (NHTSA, 1995)
• Young drivers (under 30 years old) are more likely to speed than other drivers. Of all drivers involved in fatal crashes, young males are most likely to speed. The relative proportion of speeding-related fatal crashes decreases with increasing driver age. (NHTSA, 1999)
• Alcohol involvement and speeding often go hand-in-hand. In 1998, 43 percent of drivers with a 0.10 BAC or higher who were involved in fatal crashes were speeding, compared with 14 percent of the sober (0.00 BAC) drivers in fatal crashes. (NHTSA, 1999)

SPEED LIMIT LAW FACTS

• Travel speeds increased on Interstate highways in the states that raised their speed limits after Congress repealed the National Maximum Speed Limit in 1995. Increased travel speeds historically have led to increased traffic fatalities. (IIHS, 1999)
• In the 24 states that raised their speed limits in late 1995 and in 1996, fatalities on Interstate highways increased 15 percent. Deaths on other roadways where speed limits were not raised were unchanged. (IIHS, 1998)
• The increased fatalities and fatality rates on Interstates where speed limits were raised translates to approximately 450-500 additional deaths a year on Interstate highways and freeways. (IIHS, 1998)
• As of October 1999, 28 states have raised speed limits to 70 MPH or higher on portions of their roads and highways. (IIHS, 1999)
• In a public opinion poll conducted by Louis Harris for Advocates for Highway and Auto Safety in May 1996, 64 percent of those polled said they were concerned that higher speed limits would contribute to even more aggressive driving. Sixty-six percent were concerned that highway crashes would rise again, and 52 percent were concerned that they will feel unsafe on the highways because drivers would go "much faster," exceeding even the posted limits.

Seriously?

When they train to to be a cop apologist (shall I call you a copologist?) do they not teach you to tailor your spiel for your audience? Don't they tell you not to trot out the prepackaged pure $#@! in front of intelligent and educated people?

Speed "was a factor" in 100% of all traffic fatalities since the beginning of time, because if no vehicles had been moving no traffic incident would have occurred. Given that, you can pick any number for that stat and find a way to justify it.

Fifty miles an hour is considered "high speed" on a residential street. Another "category" that allows you to pull numbers out of your ass. Ditto for guesstimates of damage costs.

Crash forces is a meaningless phrase. And if any physical force doubles with a speed increase from fifty to sixty, then it's going up exponentially, which means by seventy it quadruples, by eighty it increases by a factor of eight, and at ninety running into a brick wall will squash the car to a thickness of one foot because it has more force an a car crusher. Bull.

All that is proven by stating that far more drunks died while exceeding the speed limit than sober drivers is that the speed limits are slower than they need to be for most sober drivers.

The Sullivan Report debunked the notion that slower speeds are always safer in 1958. That was, like, 57 years ago, dude, so I guess the news is slow to get around the offices of the Ministry of Truth. If you go too slow, you get bored, and your attention lags. This is bad. If you don't believe me, ask a real cop. Just about every highway patrolman has some interesting stories about people who got so bored they were hypnotized, and just drove off the road.

We here learned long ago that the only thing you learn from a public poll is whether or not your propaganda is working. The fact that it's working on some does not mean it's working on us.

You've obviously not followed the conversation as everything you brought up has been addressed. Your "slapdown" is nothing but you completely embarrassing yourself with your complete ignorance of how police departments work.

Oh, but while I'm at it, I do want to bring up something that has puzzled me since I got here. See, there's all this cop hatred yet, I see no post bashing the military??? Now, sure, you guys attack foreign policy itself, but you always just blame the politicians, never the actual soldiers, airmen who carry out the atrocities, in fact, I was even scolded for being rude to a "veteran", I was told I should respect him because he is a veteran. Tell me, how many thousands of innocent people do our "men in uniform" slaughter every year, yet they seem to get pass???

In fact, I think I'm gonna make that question my sig.

Both of you have the same problem--your only excuse is, 'Und Ich habe nur Befehle befolgt.' That didn't work at Nuremberg and it doesn't work here. And if you think this forum has never seen a debate over the morality of joining the armed forces today, or the morality of specific actions of theirs, then all you have proven by saying so is you are no regular here, but merely the one the copologists dispatched here to respond to the current crisis.

And if you see more criticism of cops than soldiers here, perhaps you should consider the possibility that, for some reason, Iraqis and Afghanis load fewer youtube vids than Americans, and this could explain the discrepancy.

Throw some more spin my way, copologist. I'll straighten it all out. Or better still, why not make up your mind to stop bullshitting us, gain some respect for our intelligence, and see if you can pull off your Official Argument under those difficult conditions?

[HankRicther12]

Seriously?

When they train to to be a cop apologist (shall I call you a copologist?) do they not teach you to tailor your spiel for your audience? Don't they tell you not to trot out the prepackaged pure $#@! in front of intelligent and educated people?

Speed "was a factor" in 100% of all traffic fatalities since the beginning of time, because if no vehicles had been moving no traffic incident would have occurred. Given that, you can pick any number for that stat and find a way to justify it.

Fifty miles an hour is considered "high speed" on a residential street. Another "category" that allows you to pull numbers out of your ass. Ditto for guesstimates of damage costs.

Crash forces is a meaningless phrase. And if any physical force doubles with a speed increase from fifty to sixty, then it's going up exponentially, which means by seventy it quadruples, by eighty it increases by a factor of eight, and at ninety running into a brick wall will squash the car to a thickness of one foot because it has more force an a car crusher. Bull.

All that is proven by stating that far more drunks died while exceeding the speed limit than sober drivers is that the speed limits are slower than they need to be for most sober drivers.

The Sullivan Report debunked the notion that slower speeds are always safer in 1958. That was, like, 57 years ago, dude, so I guess the news is slow to get around the offices of the Ministry of Truth. If you go too slow, you get bored, and your attention lags. This is bad. If you don't believe me, ask a real cop. Just about every highway patrolman has some interesting stories about people who got so bored they were hypnotized, and just drove off the road.

We here learned long ago that the only thing you learn from a public poll is whether or not your propaganda is working. The fact that it's working on some does not mean it's working on us.



Both of you have the same problem--your only excuse is, 'Und Ich habe nur Befehle befolgt.' That didn't work at Nuremberg and it doesn't work here. And if you think this forum has never seen a debate over the morality of joining the armed forces today, or the morality of specific actions of theirs, then all you have proven by saying so is you are no regular here, but merely the one the copologists dispatched here to respond to the current crisis.

And if you see more criticism of cops than soldiers here, perhaps you should consider the possibility that, for some reason, Iraqis and Afghanis load fewer youtube vids than Americans, and this could explain the discrepancy.

Throw some more spin my way, copologist. I'll straighten it all out. Or better still, why not make up your mind to stop bullshitting us, gain some respect for our intelligence, and see if you can pull off your Official Argument under those difficult conditions.

Oh yeah, "copologist", I'll just put that in the old bag along with all the other "ist" people who have no argument throw out at me, yaknow "racist", "isolationist" "statist", "sexist".

No, I am not a regular here, but I do know in the short time I've been here I've seen at least 4 post bashing cops, (and I wasn't even looking that hard, I'm sure there's more) not one bashing the troops, sure, bashing Foreign Policy, but never the actual people who carry it out, don't even try and tell me that military personnel get anywhere near as much hate thrown at them here as cops do.

Anyone who claims going faster is safer is just not in touch with reality, all things change at higher speeds, you have far less time to react, it is much harder to stop your vehicle, if you do hit something the damage is greater, you are defending things that even a 1st grader could see are false. So go ahead, keep "straightening me out" on things you know nothing about.

Oh, WTF are you talking about with this crap:

Both of you have the same problem--your only excuse is, 'Und Ich habe nur Befehle befolgt.' That didn't work at Nuremberg and it doesn't work here

and I don't mean I don't understand German, because of course I speak German, I am a white racist statist Nazi after all, but what "both of you", what "orders" have I followed?

[Occam's Banana]

My goodness, really? You honestly don't get that I wasn't saying YOU gave me $#@!, I said people LIKE you, ie the people I dealt with in and out of the jail who had your mentality about cops. No, you personally have not been rude to me, I never said you were, you misunderstood.

(... and more of the "you don't understand anything! I worked in a jail! blarg blarg blarg!" ... )

I haven't said anything indicating "my mentality about cops" - in fact, I have gone out of my way to word my statements in order to avoid the whole "cops are good!" or "cops are bad!" thing, because it isn't relevant to the point I was addressing. My comments have had nothing to with whether one thinks cops are "pigs" or "robbers" or "public servants" or "just doing their jobs" or whatever. But you are more interested in playing the coyly presumptuous and condescending jerk ...

[acptulsa]

So, you consider applied physics, statistical manipulation, and the U.S. government's Sullivan Report non-arguments, but you consider accusing me of saying things I did not say about reaction times and greater forces to be a valid argument. And then you resort to proving Godwin's Law. And seem to consider that a valid argument.

Shoddy work. You were sent here to convince us that Waco SWAT executed the first nine bikers out of Twin Peaks because some mundane or another was in mortal danger, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding, and here you are in some completely unrelated thread destroying your credibility and embarrassing yourself. Will your bosses be pleased?

[Anti Federalist]

Oh, but while I'm at it, I do want to bring up something that has puzzled me since I got here. See, there's all this cop hatred yet, I see no post bashing the military??? Now, sure, you guys attack foreign policy itself, but you always just blame the politicians, never the actual soldiers, airmen who carry out the atrocities, in fact, I was even scolded for being rude to a "veteran", I was told I should respect him because he is a veteran. Tell me, how many thousands of innocent people do our "men in uniform" slaughter every year, yet they seem to get pass???

There have actually been, in the past, some epic and contentious threads regarding that exact subject.

As that may very well had been me that made that remark about one of our in house Afghanistan vets, some explanation is due.

1 - A vet does not deserve "respect" simply for being a vet. I most likely was trying to appeal to the contradiction inherent in a "law and order" mindset that usually "supports the troops" as well.

2 - Vets don't get the heat, because, so far, they are not the ones lighting us up by the thousands, jailing us by the millions, and seizing our property by the billions.

But at the end of the day, yeah, there is really no difference.

You're enforcing the edicts, using violence, of a corrupt and tyrannical regime, for a paycheck.

[kcchiefs6465]

You've obviously not followed the conversation as everything you brought up has been addressed. Your "slapdown" is nothing but you completely embarrassing yourself with your complete ignorance of how police departments work.

Oh, but while I'm at it, I do want to bring up something that has puzzled me since I got here. See, there's all this cop hatred yet, I see no post bashing the military??? Now, sure, you guys attack foreign policy itself, but you always just blame the politicians, never the actual soldiers, airmen who carry out the atrocities, in fact, I was even scolded for being rude to a "veteran", I was told I should respect him because he is a veteran. Tell me, how many thousands of innocent people do our "men in uniform" slaughter every year, yet they seem to get pass???

In fact, I think I'm gonna make that question my sig.

The military is as much to blame for the destruction and evil occurring in many countries as the police are to blame for say, the million plus people in jail who've committed no crime.

Birds of a feather.

[otherone]

The military is as much to blame for the destruction and evil occurring in many countries as the police are to blame for say, the million plus people in jail who've committed no crime.

Birds of a feather.

No difference. State-sanctioned thuggery.

[osan]

You've obviously not followed the conversation as everything you brought up has been addressed. Your "slapdown" is nothing but you completely embarrassing yourself with your complete ignorance of how police departments work.

Oh, but while I'm at it, I do want to bring up something that has puzzled me since I got here. See, there's all this cop hatred yet, I see no post bashing the military??? Now, sure, you guys attack foreign policy itself, but you always just blame the politicians, never the actual soldiers, airmen who carry out the atrocities, in fact, I was even scolded for being rude to a "veteran", I was told I should respect him because he is a veteran. Tell me, how many thousands of innocent people do our "men in uniform" slaughter every year, yet they seem to get pass???

In fact, I think I'm gonna make that question my sig.

Your insubstantial and evasive "response" is noted. I know this is an utter waste of time, but you really need to read this:

http://freedomisobvious.blogspot.com...p-bad-cop.html

There is a very simple, very direct, and very incontrovertible reason why a cop cannot be good. You will likely reject this, but no matter. I can at least say I did what needed doing, even though to no avail.

[osan]

The military is as much to blame for the destruction and evil occurring in many countries as the police are to blame for say, the million plus people in jail who've committed no crime.

Birds of a feather.

But... but... heroes... um... terr'ists... alk-eye-duh... eye-rack... WMDs.... um... um... did I say "terr'ists"?... Liberals! Yeah... that's the ticket... liberals!

[HankRicther12]

So, you consider applied physics, statistical manipulation, and the U.S. government's Sullivan Report non-arguments, but you consider accusing me of saying things I did not say about reaction times and greater forces to be a valid argument. And then you resort to proving Godwin's Law. And seem to consider that a valid argument.

Shoddy work. You were sent here to convince us that Waco SWAT executed the first nine bikers out of Twin Peaks because some mundane or another was in mortal danger, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding, and here you are in some completely unrelated thread destroying your credibility and embarrassing yourself. Will your bosses be pleased?

Lol, Godwins Law? That only applies when you are bringing up the Nazis to associate the person you are debating with it, I used it as a joke at myself, not proof of anything. Now, what are you talking about with this other $#@!? I was "sent here" to what again? Buddy, I have not said Jack about this incident other than people should not jump to conclusions, in fact I have said it several times I don't know what happened and I'm certainly not jumping into these whacky conspiracies that none of you can prove. So anyone here who doesn't agree with you and has less than 10,000 post must be some paid agent? My goodness, are you guys really serious with this stuff or are you just joking? If not, what do these paid posters make a year? Where can I go apply

There have actually been, in the past, some epic and contentious threads regarding that exact subject.

As that may very well had been me that made that remark about one of our in house Afghanistan vets, some explanation is due.

1 - A vet does not deserve "respect" simply for being a vet. I most likely was trying to appeal to the contradiction inherent in a "law and order" mindset that usually "supports the troops" as well.

2 - Vets don't get the heat, because, so far, they are not the ones lighting us up by the thousands, jailing us by the millions, and seizing our property by the billions.

But at the end of the day, yeah, there is really no difference.

You're enforcing the edicts, using violence, of a corrupt and tyrannical regime, for a paycheck.

Wasn't WACO and Ruby Ridge military? I can't say I agree with this epidemic of cops doing all these horrible things, again, in 5 different cities I only remember one time a cop had to kill anyone, that's 2 yrs in 5 cities, and no they weren't little backwater places, they are right outside Detroit. Now Detroit is another story, but I didn't work with them. Sorry to tell you cops do actually do good in communities and I've listened to every alternate proposal from some of you and none of you have suggested any system that won't just devolve into what we already have, there will always be some kind of power structure and how it operates depends on the people being vigilant, being willing to stand up and speak out, but sadly as I say, people are herd animals, it will never happen.

[HankRicther12]

Your insubstantial and evasive "response" is noted. I know this is an utter waste of time, but you really need to read this:

http://freedomisobvious.blogspot.com...p-bad-cop.html

There is a very simple, very direct, and very incontrovertible reason why a cop cannot be good. You will likely reject this, but no matter. I can at least say I did what needed doing, even though to no avail.

My response is that I'm not going to rewrite everything I already did just because you decide to jump into a conversation all of sudden and bring up a bunch of stuff I already addressed. I read your article, saw that one before, it still brings us back to what I already asked several times: what's the alternative and how will you keep it from ending up just as we are now?

The military is as much to blame for the destruction and evil occurring in many countries as the police are to blame for say, the million plus people in jail who've committed no crime.

Birds of a feather.

Police don't make the laws, police don't bring the charges, police don't return guilty verdicts, police don't do the sentencing and I highly doubt there's a million innocent people in jail. This blind hatred here is really disturbing, what happened to not putting people in groups and then judging them? What happened to presumption of innocence? Guess all that goes out the window once you hear the word "cop", you're kinda like Al Sharpton's, he don't care the facts either, he hears "white killed black" and white (or in Zimmerman's case a Hispanic turned white) is guilty.

[Anti Federalist]

Wasn't WACO and Ruby Ridge military?

Initially, no.

It was FBI at Ruby Ridge.

ATF was Waco.

They called in military assets after perjuring themselves and saying that the church members were running a meth lab.

I can't say I agree with this epidemic of cops doing all these horrible things, again, in 5 different cities I only remember one time a cop had to kill anyone, that's 2 yrs in 5 cities, and no they weren't little backwater places, they are right outside Detroit. Now Detroit is another story, but I didn't work with them. Sorry to tell you cops do actually do good in communities and I've listened to every alternate proposal from some of you and none of you have suggested any system that won't just devolve into what we already have, there will always be some kind of power structure and how it operates depends on the people being vigilant, being willing to stand up and speak out, but sadly as I say, people are herd animals, it will never happen.

What do you suppose we're trying encourage here?

People are not going to raise hell about something unless you can convince them it is in their best interest to do so.

The job becomes much more difficult when those with "insider" information, such as yourself, come along and downplay what's happening.

[Anti Federalist]

Police don't make the laws, police don't bring the charges, police don't return guilty verdicts, police don't do the sentencing

No, they don't.

Police shoot unarmed people in the back and drop a "throwdown" piece on the body.

Police sweat confessions out of semi-retarded "suspects" to close a case.

Police strap old men down into a "devil's chair" and pepper spray them until dead.

Police SWAT raid the wrong home and kill grandmothers.

Police shoot unarmed middle aged women.

Police grenade toddlers in the face.

Police shoot innocent people's dogs.

I could go on and on and on...

and I highly doubt there's a million innocent people in jail.

Due to the heroic work of outfits like the Innocence Project (which I proudly contribute to and support), roughly ten percent, perhaps more as more cases are investigated, of people on death row have been found innocent.

That's supposedly the ne plus ultra of American jurisprudence, and it's wrong at least ten percent of the time.

Now, how many do you figure of poor broke bastards that are in prison are innocent.

25 percent?

That's 500,000 roughly.

So how many do you think are in prison unjustly?

None?

This blind hatred here is really disturbing, what happened to not putting people in groups and then judging them?

What "blind hatred"?

Police are dangerous to be around.

Avoid them at all costs.

This is no more "collectivist" than to say you should avoid walking around NOLA's Ninth Ward at 0300.

[acptulsa]

Lol, Godwins Law? That only applies when you are bringing up the Nazis to associate the person you are debating with it, I used it as a joke at myself, not proof of anything. Now, what are you talking about with this other $#@!?

Just giving you an open door to derail this thread away from whether speeding is half the danger it's made out to be, and whether enforcing speed laws is half as safe as it's made out to be. You're welcome.

But we're going back on track. A person of some talent and skill operating a light Mazda at seventy in a sixty zone isn't half as dangerous as a half-trained cop in a POS Crown Vic (picked not because it's a good all-round performer, which it is not, but because it's heavy enough to knock speeders off the road) doing ninety in the same traffic to chase him down. And all for the enforcement of an arbitrary standard, set to maximize fines and to allow the insurance lobby to hike our rates. Just following orders.

And just following orders when they deliberately wreck their Crown Vic, bought with the hard-earned money of taxpayers, into some schmuck who won't pull over, because if they don't, he might hurt himself and/or others. Never mind that the seventeen cops chasing him are approximately thirty-four times more likely to kill a mundane before it's over. But, of course, if we didn't set arbitrary speed limits and try to kill everyone who refuses to respect them, we'd have--gasp--no laws but the Basic Speed Law, and no enforcement of that but the Laws of Physics. Horrors! Let people kill themselves without the assistance of the police! How uncivilized! What if they fail? They'll live! The horror!

Besides, cops never kill mundanes trying to catch up to miscreants, right? No, of course that's not right. These half-trained, talentless loose nuts behind the wheel of asinine, topheavy pieces of garbage like Tahoes just never run over mundanes. Or, at least, they never run over mundanes who don't pull off in the mud eighty feet from the roadway whenever they see disco lights in the distance. Except, of course, when they do.

Please, get back on topic long enough to tell us how perfect this system is, and how much incontrovertible proof you can come up with that bad guys who don't get chased kill more mundanes than adrenaline-charged, half-trained good ol' boyz in severely ill-chosen, substandard, heavily abused equipment with disco lights all over it.

And by the way, you're wrong about what Godwin's Law is...

If you mention Adolf Hitler or Nazis within a discussion thread, you’ve automatically ended whatever discussion you were taking part in.”

So you did invoke Godwin's Law. And you disproved it. Or, rather, I did. In any case, it didn't work, because this thread is back on track.

A good cop is a diplomat, a mediator, and a martial artist all in one. It really is too much to expect him to be Emerson Fittipaldi as well. A cop car must have room for riot gear, first aid kits, and innumerable other things, as well as prisoners. To expect it to be safe at 145 mph is really too much to expect. Yet the myth that the cop in this overloaded sedan or grossly topheavy trucklet is safer at ninety than a Miata with Emerson Fittipaldi really behind the wheel is at seventy is the myth that this whole racket is based upon. Why shouldn't I question that?

[Henry Rogue]

Wonder what the parents are thinking...

That TPTB should give the Doctor a badge, red and blue lights and a siren so he can speed without getting pulled over.

[acptulsa]

That TPTB should give the Doctor a badge, red and blue lights and a siren so he can speed without getting pulled over.

And since he's probably twice as good a driver as anyone on that police force, can afford equipment ten times as good, and is about fifty times more likely to be on his way to save someone's life, why the hell shouldn't he be allowed to display disco lights?

[kcchiefs6465]

My response is that I'm not going to rewrite everything I already did just because you decide to jump into a conversation all of sudden and bring up a bunch of stuff I already addressed. I read your article, saw that one before, it still brings us back to what I already asked several times: what's the alternative and how will you keep it from ending up just as we are now?



Police don't make the laws, police don't bring the charges, police don't return guilty verdicts, police don't do the sentencing and I highly doubt there's a million innocent people in jail. This blind hatred here is really disturbing, what happened to not putting people in groups and then judging them? What happened to presumption of innocence? Guess all that goes out the window once you hear the word "cop", you're kinda like Al Sharpton's, he don't care the facts either, he hears "white killed black" and white (or in Zimmerman's case a Hispanic turned white) is guilty.

I would speak about the Crips with equal visceral if I happened to find myself obligated to pay for their supposed benefits.

[Cissy]

The officer who cared more about his hurt feelings than a child's life was weaker than the babe who fought to live.

Lord, give the physician and the child's family comfort and peace; they endeavoured to save the child.

Drive the officer and the department to repentance. Their hands have the blood of innocents. You once counseled a centurion to keep his job, with the caveat that he never again use his position to exploit or mistreat his fellow man.

Those who follow in the path of Roman soldiers have ignored that counsel, Lord. Even to the point that they have no qualms of letting a babe die in order to force an "unbeliever" to worship their authority.

Open their eyes to what they have become, Lord. They are blind, but believe they can see. They mock you with their actions, believing themselves acting in your name.

Let the department be a witness to others, Lord. Now, their plans and actions delight the Enemy. They praise you with their lips while their hearts are far from you. Let their conversion be so great that the account of it is talked of nationwide.

[HankRicther12]

What do you suppose we're trying encourage here? People are not going to raise hell about something unless you can convince them it is in their best interest to do so. The job becomes much more difficult when those with "insider" information, such as yourself, come along and downplay what's happening.

As I've said, I have no issue with raising awareness, but doing so by blindly judging guilt with no proof and making other wild assumptions about people you don't know does not help your case, it only helps theirs and actually helps add more to the image of the "hero working a thankless job". You're jab at me at the end was unnecessary and frankly silly. I felt as you and I have gone along here, tho we still are disagreeing certainly, we seem to at least be coming closer to some understanding, why you felt you had to do that I don't know.

(... and more of the "you don't understand anything! I worked in a jail! blarg blarg blarg!" ... )

I haven't said anything indicating "my mentality about cops" - in fact, I have gone out of my way to word my statements in order to avoid the whole "cops are good!" or "cops are bad!" thing, because it isn't relevant to the point I was addressing. My comments have had nothing to with whether one thinks cops are "pigs" or "robbers" or "public servants" or "just doing their jobs" or whatever. But you are more interested in playing the coyly presumptuous and condescending jerk ...

OK, perhaps I got you confused with one of the others I was talking with, I don't have you all memorized on this site so it could have been a mistake on my part. When I said you "misunderstood" it was not a talking down to you, I was only saying my post was not meant to suggest you had been rude to me. So, if I my post offended you, it was not my intention and I apologize.

Just giving you an open door to derail this thread away from whether speeding is half the danger it's made out to be, and whether enforcing speed laws is half as safe as it's made out to be. You're welcome.

But we're going back on track. A person of some talent and skill operating a light Mazda at seventy in a sixty zone isn't half as dangerous as a half-trained cop in a POS Crown Vic (picked not because it's a good all-round performer, which it is not, but because it's heavy enough to knock speeders off the road) doing ninety in the same traffic to chase him down. And all for the enforcement of an arbitrary standard, set to maximize fines and to allow the insurance lobby to hike our rates. Just following orders.

And just following orders when they deliberately wreck their Crown Vic, bought with the hard-earned money of taxpayers, into some schmuck who won't pull over, because if they don't, he might hurt himself and/or others. Never mind that the seventeen cops chasing him are approximately thirty-four times more likely to kill a mundane before it's over. But, of course, if we didn't set arbitrary speed limits and try to kill everyone who refuses to respect them, we'd have--gasp--no laws but the Basic Speed Law, and no enforcement of that but the Laws of Physics. Horrors! Let people kill themselves without the assistance of the police! How uncivilized! What if they fail? They'll live! The horror!

Besides, cops never kill mundanes trying to catch up to miscreants, right? No, of course that's not right. These half-trained, talentless loose nuts behind the wheel of asinine, topheavy pieces of garbage like Tahoes just never run over mundanes. Or, at least, they never run over mundanes who don't pull off in the mud eighty feet from the roadway whenever they see disco lights in the distance. Except, of course, when they do.

Please, get back on topic long enough to tell us how perfect this system is, and how much incontrovertible proof you can come up with that bad guys who don't get chased kill more mundanes than adrenaline-charged, half-trained good ol' boyz in severely ill-chosen, substandard, heavily abused equipment with disco lights all over it.

And by the way, you're wrong about what Godwin's Law is...



So you did invoke Godwin's Law. And you disproved it. Or, rather, I did. In any case, it didn't work, because this thread is back on track.

A good cop is a diplomat, a mediator, and a martial artist all in one. It really is too much to expect him to be Emerson Fittipaldi as well. A cop car must have room for riot gear, first aid kits, and innumerable other things, as well as prisoners. To expect it to be safe at 145 mph is really too much to expect. Yet the myth that the cop in this overloaded sedan or grossly topheavy trucklet is safer at ninety than a Miata with Emerson Fittipaldi really behind the wheel is at seventy is the myth that this whole racket is based upon. Why shouldn't I question that?

Oh, OK, so you pluck the one sentence out of Godwin's Law that supports what you say and provide it as proof. My goodness. As for speeding, as you say it, that is true, I however don't agree with how speed chases are handled which brings us back to something I've said time and again but many seem to like to ignore, I don't support everything the police do and I definitely agree changes need to be made, however they are not always wrong so I will defend them when they are right and I will also maintain objectivity when I don't know the facts and I will speak out against those who don't.

But at the same time, chases are not always just a cop going after someone who is breaking the speed limit, what if they are chasing someone who is violent? Do you just say, write down the plate (or do we even have license plates in your society?), try to pick them up later - giving them time to kill/rape/assault more people? I'm not claiming to have a perfect answer, but it's not always so black and white is it?

No, they don't.

Police shoot unarmed people in the back and drop a "throwdown" piece on the body.

Police sweat confessions out of semi-retarded "suspects" to close a case.

Police strap old men down into a "devil's chair" and pepper spray them until dead.

Police SWAT raid the wrong home and kill grandmothers.

Police shoot unarmed middle aged women.

Police grenade toddlers in the face.

Police shoot innocent people's dogs.

I could go on and on and on...



Due to the heroic work of outfits like the Innocence Project (which I proudly contribute to and support), roughly ten percent, perhaps more as more cases are investigated, of people on death row have been found innocent.

That's supposedly the ne plus ultra of American jurisprudence, and it's wrong at least ten percent of the time.

Now, how many do you figure of poor broke bastards that are in prison are innocent.

25 percent?

That's 500,000 roughly.

So how many do you think are in prison unjustly?

None?



What "blind hatred"?

Police are dangerous to be around.

Avoid them at all costs.

This is no more "collectivist" than to say you should avoid walking around NOLA's Ninth Ward at 0300.

"Police" do these things? OK, so ONE cop is on film shooting someone in the back so now "Police" as a whole do it? Again, in 2yrs, 5 cities, ONE cop killed someone and it was self-defense, only a tiny percentage of cops will ever actually shoot anyone, and in most cases it is defense, when they are not, let's nail them to the wall, I don't defend that POS coward who shot that man in the back, I hope he goes to jail for life. Every other one of those cases you listed are rare and you know it. I read the baby thing, it is horrible, but to suggest that cop was like "Hey, I'm gonna shoot me a baby", I mean, come on, again, let's not blame the higher ups, let's blame the beat cop.

As for finding people innocent, I'd have to see all the actual data on that, just because you can find some technicality to get someone out of jail does not mean for sure they are innocent and you'll forgive me if I don't exactly trust the objectivity of an organization you support as it seems you don't feel anyone should be in jail, that's why I said if you send me a particular case I will look at it and if I feel they are innocent I will donate to support their legal fees, instead you sent me a link to a baby. I may still donate to them, I just want to see if they win their civil suit first, I don't see any reason to send them money if they are going to get it from the city.

You feel cops, ALL cops, are dangerous to be around, well, that's your view, some are, but so are some doctors, truck drivers, school teachers, priests, etc, etc, etc, as a whole tho, most people are not dangerous to be around and I'd rather concentrate on dealing with the root of these problems rather than hating cops.

[acptulsa]

Oh, OK, so you pluck the one sentence out of Godwin's Law that supports what you say and provide it as proof.

Just how many paragraphs do you think there are to Godwin's Law?

But at the same time, chases are not always just a cop going after someone who is breaking the speed limit, what if they are chasing someone who is violent? Do you just say, write down the plate (or do we even have license plates in your society?), try to pick them up later - giving them time to kill/rape/assault more people? I'm not claiming to have a perfect answer, but it's not always so black and white is it?

Used to be, but then most departments decided the traditional paint job was too expensive.

And murderers are quite the change of subject, aren't they? Are you really so caught up in your PEED SKILLZ!!!1!!1! rhetoric that you're trying to convince me that anyone who does fifteen over the posted is trying to murder someone in cold blood?

[HankRicther12]

Just how many paragraphs do you think there are to Godwin's Law?



Used to be, but then most departments decided the traditional paint job was too expensive.

And murderers are quite the change of subject, aren't they? Are you really so caught up in your PEED SKILLZ!!!1!!1! rhetoric that you're trying to convince me that anyone who does fifteen over the posted is trying to murder someone in cold blood?

Are you serious with this? I did not say anything even remotely like that. Are straw men the only way you can defend your weak position?

"Although deliberately framed as if it were a law of nature or of mathematics, its purpose has always been rhetorical and pedagogical: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler or to Nazis to think a bit harder about the Holocaust", Godwin has written.

[acptulsa]

Are you serious with this? I did not say anything even remotely like that. Are straw men the only way you can defend your weak position?

My position isn't weak.

And you are the man who is flying off the handle. Presumably because you don't like the fact that you are trying to change the subject from spirited drivers to murderers and I won't let you.

[HankRicther12]

My position isn't weak.

And you are the man who is flying off the handle. Presumably because you don't like the fact that you are trying to change the subject from spirited drivers to murderers and I won't let you.

??????????? Buddy, you go ahead and keep on making up whatever suits you.

[acptulsa]

??????????? Buddy, you go ahead and keep on making up whatever suits you.

Tell you what: Deny this and say I'm making it up.

Cops and copologists keep saying, but if we can't speed how will we catch the murderers? Thing is, when someone seriously violent pops up, the cops are in no hurry at all. One of the funniest things I ever saw was a cop that came rolling up all alone on the scene of an armed robbery, got out of her car, and hollered so loudly that it could be heard across the street, where are the cops who were assigned to this call?

Of course, they showed up together, a couple of minutes later, driving in formation. This was because of one of the best-kept secrets in copdom--no matter how much better armed and equipped a cop may be than you are, a cop won't show up on the scene of a violent crime until their backup shows up. In fact, while you're being raped, beaten and murdered, the cop is sitting at a rendezvous a couple of blocks away, waiting for his or her backup so they can go in together. It's obvious to those who actually look at what is going on.

So, they need to speed to save us from the murderers, but they only speed to chase down the nonviolent and mostly harmless. If there actually could be a murderer around, they have strict orders to be in no hurry at all to get there.

Deny it, copologist. Let everyone see just how honest you are.

[phill4paul]

Go-NADDS!

[acptulsa]

Hm. Someone is willing to hang about, hijacking other threads in order to tell us all that he regrets hijacking other threads...

To prove a point or to defend myself against baseless accusations? Well, at any rate, here's just one example of an exchange, I could give more but I agree with you on one thing I don't want to clutter this topic with such things.

...but can't come here and finish a conversation he started.

[Anti Federalist]

As I've said, I have no issue with raising awareness, but doing so by blindly judging guilt with no proof and making other wild assumptions about people you don't know does not help your case, it only helps theirs and actually helps add more to the image of the "hero working a thankless job". You're jab at me at the end was unnecessary and frankly silly. I felt as you and I have gone along here, tho we still are disagreeing certainly, we seem to at least be coming closer to some understanding, why you felt you had to do that I don't know.

I do not find the assumptions to be wild.

That was not a jab, just a statement of fact.

"Police" do these things? OK, so ONE cop is on film shooting someone in the back so now "Police" as a whole do it? Again, in 2yrs, 5 cities, ONE cop killed someone and it was self-defense, only a tiny percentage of cops will ever actually shoot anyone, and in most cases it is defense, when they are not, let's nail them to the wall, I don't defend that POS coward who shot that man in the back, I hope he goes to jail for life. Every other one of those cases you listed are rare and you know it. I read the baby thing, it is horrible, but to suggest that cop was like "Hey, I'm gonna shoot me a baby", I mean, come on, again, let's not blame the higher ups, let's blame the beat cop.

Yes, "police" do those things, on a regular and daily basis.

And on a regular and daily basis, the police system, covers and justifies it.

As for finding people innocent, I'd have to see all the actual data on that, just because you can find some technicality to get someone out of jail does not mean for sure they are innocent and you'll forgive me if I don't exactly trust the objectivity of an organization you support as it seems you don't feel anyone should be in jail, that's why I said if you send me a particular case I will look at it and if I feel they are innocent I will donate to support their legal fees, instead you sent me a link to a baby. I may still donate to them, I just want to see if they win their civil suit first, I don't see any reason to send them money if they are going to get it from the city.

www.innocenceproject.org

Not "technicalities".

Truly innocent people. Although what is a "technicality"? Is it a situation where a person is convicted based on the testimony of a crooked cop? Where person is sweated into confessing something without legal representation?

And if don't feel like contributing to Baby Bou's medical bills, such is your right. You asked how you could help. The family already "won" their civil suit, and it is woefully inadequate to pay all the medical expenses.

Of course the cops that blew his face off are still on the job and have been held in no way, shape or form accountable for what they did.

You feel cops, ALL cops, are dangerous to be around, well, that's your view, some are, but so are some doctors, truck drivers, school teachers, priests, etc, etc, etc, as a whole tho, most people are not dangerous to be around and I'd rather concentrate on dealing with the root of these problems rather than hating cops.

Not a single one of those people, and not a single one of any other class of people that you care to name has the legal authority to kill me, based simply on their say so.

Only cops enjoy that "right".

Avoid them at all costs.

They are not there to "help".

They are there to enforce the edicts of the state, to $#@! people up and put them in prison.

[HankRicther12]

I do not find the assumptions to be wild.

That was not a jab, just a statement of fact.



Yes, "police" do those things, on a regular and daily basis.

And on a regular and daily basis, the police system, covers and justifies it.



www.innocenceproject.org

Not "technicalities".

Truly innocent people. Although what is a "technicality"? Is it a situation where a person is convicted based on the testimony of a crooked cop? Where person is sweated into confessing something without legal representation?

And if don't feel like contributing to Baby Bou's medical bills, such is your right. You asked how you could help. The family already "won" their civil suit, and it is woefully inadequate to pay all the medical expenses.

Of course the cops that blew his face off are still on the job and have been held in no way, shape or form accountable for what they did.



Not a single one of those people, and not a single one of any other class of people that you care to name has the legal authority to kill me, based simply on their say so.

Only cops enjoy that "right".

Avoid them at all costs.

They are not there to "help".

They are there to enforce the edicts of the state, to $#@! people up and put them in prison.

It wasn't a jab? Asking for actual evidence prior to lynching someone is hardly "downplaying" something, but, hey. I was not aware the case was over, if they are still having trouble paying the bills I will help, I only googled it as you did not provide a link. Your view of cops is not going to change that's obvious and you base it all on the most extreme of cases. Sorry to say but no, cops do not have any legal authority nor desire to just "kill you" on their say so, it's a shame you hold such a view and no doubt hanging out here you will find no shortage of people willing to re-enforce it.

I am a bit curious tho, your avatar is of William Wallace, now, whether you admire the movie character or the historical figure, either way, he was a fervent supporter of the monarchy and was more than willing to follow around Robert the Bruce as his King. More so, if you do admire the actual historical figure you may want to look more into him as I'd say especially the later years of his life would be quite at odds with the views you seem to hold.

Hm. Someone is willing to hang about, hijacking other threads in order to tell us all that he regrets hijacking other threads...
...but can't come here and finish a conversation he started.

Yaknow, I'm almost starting to wish I was even half this ultra slick super secret agent you seem to give me credit for.

[Anti Federalist]

It wasn't a jab?

No.

Asking for actual evidence prior to lynching someone is hardly "downplaying" something, but, hey.

I'm not out to lynch anybody.

I was not aware the case was over, if they are still having trouble paying the bills I will help, I only googled it as you did not provide a link.

Yes, it is, and I wasn't in a position at the time to grab a link.

But there is a fundraising site if you felt so inclined.

Your view of cops is not going to change that's obvious and you base it all on the most extreme of cases. Sorry to say but no, cops do not have any legal authority nor desire to just "kill you" on their say so,

No, not likely at all, as I've held this view since Ruby Ridge, Rodney King and Waco.

Actually, to tell the truth, long before that, after getting roughed up protesting fishing regulations and getting a "wood shampoo" one night for the crime of being a biker.

It has gotten worse over the years however, especially in the wake of 9/11, the militarization of police and adoption of the circular force continuum (which, yes, does make it perfectly legal for a cop to ventilate you simply because he felt "his safety was in jeopardy")

And it's quantifiable, simply by counting the number of SWAT raids a year.

30 years ago, there were not 80,000 yearly.

it's a shame you hold such a view and no doubt hanging out here you will find no shortage of people willing to re-enforce it.

Why is it a shame?

How can anybody re-enforce it in "shameful" fashion?

Are all the daily stories I see false?

Are my own experiences figments of my imagination?

Do you think I just woke up one morning and decided: "I think I'll hate government and the people that blindly and, within increasing brutality, enforce it's laws" for no damn good reason?

Is this freedom?

I am a bit curious tho, your avatar is of William Wallace, now, whether you admire the movie character or the historical figure, either way, he was a fervent supporter of the monarchy and was more than willing to follow around Robert the Bruce as his King. More so, if you do admire the actual historical figure you may want to look more into him as I'd say especially the later years of his life would be quite at odds with the views you seem to hold.

I'll admit it's nothing more than fanciful admiration of a fictional portrayal.

It's been my online persona for over 20 years now.