Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 43

Thread: Is having a loving family an unfair advantage?

  1. #1

    Is having a loving family an unfair advantage?

    So many disputes in our liberal democratic society hinge on the tension between inequality and fairness: between groups, between sexes, between individuals, and increasingly between families.

    I don’t think parents reading their children bedtime stories should constantly have in their minds the way that they are unfairly disadvantaging other people’s children, but I think they should have that thought occasionally.

    The power of the family to tilt equality hasn’t gone unnoticed, and academics and public commentators have been blowing the whistle for some time. Now, philosophers Adam Swift and Harry Brighouse have felt compelled to conduct a cool reassessment.

    Swift in particular has been conflicted for some time over the curious situation that arises when a parent wants to do the best for her child but in the process makes the playing field for others even more lopsided.

    ‘I got interested in this question because I was interested in equality of opportunity,’ he says.

    ‘I had done some work on social mobility and the evidence is overwhelmingly that the reason why children born to different families have very different chances in life is because of what happens in those families.’

    Once he got thinking, Swift could see that the issue stretches well beyond the fact that some families can afford private schooling, nannies, tutors, and houses in good suburbs. Functional family interactions—from going to the cricket to reading bedtime stories—form a largely unseen but palpable fault line between families. The consequence is a gap in social mobility and equality that can last for generations.

    So, what to do?

    According to Swift, from a purely instrumental position the answer is straightforward.

    ‘One way philosophers might think about solving the social justice problem would be by simply abolishing the family. If the family is this source of unfairness in society then it looks plausible to think that if we abolished the family there would be a more level playing field.’

    It’s not the first time a philosopher has thought about such a drastic solution. Two thousand four hundred years ago another sage reasoned that the care of children should be undertaken by the state.

    Plato pulled few punches in The Republic when he called for the abolition of the family and for the children of the elite to be given over to the state. Aristotle didn’t agree, citing the since oft-used argument of the neglect of things held in common. Swift echoes the Aristotelian line. The break-up of the family is plausible maybe, he thinks, but even to the most hard-hearted there’s something off-key about it.

    ‘Nearly everyone who has thought about this would conclude that it is a really bad idea to be raised by state institutions, unless something has gone wrong,’ he says.

    Intuitively it doesn’t feel right, but for a philosopher, solutions require more than an initial reaction. So Swift and his college Brighouse set to work on a respectable analytical defence of the family, asking themselves the deceptively simple question: ‘Why are families a good thing exactly?’

    Not surprisingly, it begins with kids and ends with parents.

    ‘It’s the children’s interest in family life that is the most important,’ says Swift. ‘From all we now know, it is in the child’s interest to be parented, and to be parented well. Meanwhile, from the adult point of view it looks as if there is something very valuable in being a parent.’

    He concedes parenting might not be for everyone and for some it can go badly wrong, but in general it is an irreplaceable relationship.

    ‘Parenting a child makes for what we call a distinctive and special contribution to the flourishing and wellbeing of adults.’

    It seems that from both the child’s and adult’s point of view there is something to be said about living in a family way. This doesn’t exactly parry the criticism that families exacerbate social inequality. For this, Swift and Brighouse needed to sort out those activities that contribute to unnecessary inequality from those that don't.

    ‘What we realised we needed was a way of thinking about what it was we wanted to allow parents to do for their children, and what it was that we didn’t need to allow parents to do for their children, if allowing those activities would create unfairnesses for other people’s children’.

    The test they devised was based on what they term ‘familial relationship goods’; those unique and identifiable things that arise within the family unit and contribute to the flourishing of family members.

    For Swift, there’s one particular choice that fails the test.

    ‘Private schooling cannot be justified by appeal to these familial relationship goods,’ he says. ‘It’s just not the case that in order for a family to realise these intimate, loving, authoritative, affectionate, love-based relationships you need to be able to send your child to an elite private school.’

    In contrast, reading stories at bedtime, argues Swift, gives rise to acceptable familial relationship goods, even though this also bestows advantage.

    ‘The evidence shows that the difference between those who get bedtime stories and those who don’t—the difference in their life chances—is bigger than the difference between those who get elite private schooling and those that don’t,’ he says.

    This devilish twist of evidence surely leads to a further conclusion—that perhaps in the interests of levelling the playing field, bedtime stories should also be restricted. In Swift’s mind this is where the evaluation of familial relationship goods goes up a notch.

    ‘You have to allow parents to engage in bedtime stories activities, in fact we encourage them because those are the kinds of interactions between parents and children that do indeed foster and produce these [desired] familial relationship goods.’

    Swift makes it clear that although both elite schooling and bedtime stories might both skew the family game, restricting the former would not interfere with the creation of the special loving bond that families give rise to. Taking the books away is another story.

    ‘We could prevent elite private schooling without any real hit to healthy family relationships, whereas if we say that you can’t read bedtime stories to your kids because it’s not fair that some kids get them and others don’t, then that would be too big a hit at the core of family life.’

    So should parents snuggling up for one last story before lights out be even a little concerned about the advantage they might be conferring?

    ‘I don’t think parents reading their children bedtime stories should constantly have in their minds the way that they are unfairly disadvantaging other people’s children, but I think they should have that thought occasionally,’ quips Swift.

    In the end Swift agrees that all activities will cause some sort of imbalance—from joining faith communities to playing Saturday cricket—and it’s for this reason that a theory of familial goods needs to be established if the family is to be defended against cries of unfairness.

    ‘We should accept that lots of stuff that goes on in healthy families—and that our theory defends—will confer unfair advantage,’ he says.

    It’s the usual bind in ethics and moral philosophy: very often values clash and you have to make a call. For Swift and Brighouse, the line sits shy of private schooling, inheritance and other predominantly economic ways of conferring advantage.

    Their conclusions remind one of a more idyllic (or mythic) age for families: reading together, attending religious services, playing board games, and kicking a ball in the local park, not to mention enjoying roast dinner on Sunday. It conjures a family setting worthy of a classic Norman Rockwell painting. But not so fast: when you ask Swift what sort of families is he talking about, the ‘50s reverie comes crashing down into the 21st century.

    ‘When we talk about parents’ rights, we’re talking about the person who is parenting the child. How you got to be parenting the child is another issue. One implication of our theory is that it’s not one’s biological relation that does much work in justifying your rights with respect to how the child is parented.’

    For Swift and Brighouse, our society is curiously stuck in a time warp of proprietorial rights: if you biologically produce a child you own it.

    ‘We think that although in practice it makes sense to parent your biological offspring, that is not the same as saying that in virtue of having produced the child the biological parent has the right to parent.’

    Then, does the child have a right to be parented by her biological parents? Swift has a ready answer.

    ‘It’s true that in the societies in which we live, biological origins do tend to form an important part of people’s identities, but that is largely a social and cultural construction. So you could imagine societies in which the parent-child relationship could go really well even without there being this biological link.’

    From this realisation arises another twist: two is not the only number.

    ‘Nothing in our theory assumes two parents: there might be two, there might be three, and there might be four,’ says Swift.

    It’s here that the traditional notions of what constitutes the family come apart. A necessary product of the Swift and Brighouse analytical defence is the calling into question of some rigid definitions.

    ‘Politicians love to talk about family values, but meanwhile the family is in flux and so we wanted to go back to philosophical basics to work out what are families for and what’s so great about them and then we can start to figure out whether it matters whether you have two parents or three or one, or whether they’re heterosexual etcetera.’

    For traditionalists, though, Swift provides a small concession.

    ‘We do want to defend the family against complete fragmentation and dissolution,’ he says. ‘If you start to think about a child having 10 parents, then that’s looking like a committee rearing a child; there aren’t any parents there at all.’

    Although it’s controversial, it seems that Swift and Brighouse are philosophically inching their way to a novel accommodation for a weathered institution ever more in need of a rationale for existing. The bathwater might be going out, but they’re keen to hold on to the baby.
    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/...values/6437058



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #2
    No little Libra, it's fair.

  4. #3
    No, to be fair, none of us should know who our daddy is.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    No, to be fair, none of us should know who our daddy is.
    How many 'ours' you got?

  6. #5
    //
    Last edited by specsaregood; 05-20-2016 at 01:12 PM.

  7. #6
    So many disputes in our liberal democratic society hinge on the tension between inequality and fairness: between groups, between sexes, between individuals, and increasingly between families.
    Harrison Bergeron
    http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html
    Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.


    A police state is a small price to pay for living in the freest country on earth.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    How many 'ours' you got?
    Yeah, I wasn't talking about myself. We are plural here.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Yeah, I wasn't talking about myself. We are plural here.
    OK, how many 'we' ya got?



  10. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  11. #9
    What in the $#@!ing motherfucking $#@!?

    Facepalm, then seconds later, my head explodes.
    Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    What in the $#@!ing motherfucking $#@!?

    Facepalm, then seconds later, my head explodes.
    You haven't ever heard leftists (which is to say, mentally ill) talk about 'privilege'?

  13. #11
    I don’t think parents reading their children bedtime stories should constantly have in their minds the way that they are unfairly disadvantaging other people’s children, but I think they should have that thought occasionally,’ quips Swift.
    Their parents are not disadvantaging them by not reading to them...you are disadvantaging those kids by reading to yours. Got it?

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    OK, how many 'we' ya got?
    Hummm... might want to check with a Frenchman about that.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by jj- View Post
    You haven't ever heard leftists (which is to say, mentally ill) talk about 'privilege'?
    Yeah. But this is blatant promotion of dumbing down children via neglecting their intellectual development.

    And they're supposed to be the smart ones?
    Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Their parents are not disadvantaging them by not reading to them...you are disadvantaging those kids by reading to yours. Got it?
    It takes a lot to shock me these days, but holy $#@!...
    Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    Yeah. But this is blatant promotion of dumbing down children via neglecting their intellectual development.
    Equality was always for them cutting the heads of tall people to make everyone of the same height.

    Economic equality is equal poverty.

    Equality in education is having everyone in crappy schools.

    And they're supposed to be the smart ones?
    Funny that society lets them get away with such blatant hypocrisy.

    One quick way to conclude that someone is mentally ill is if they mention the word 'privilege' (in the sense we are talking about here), not to mention 'white privilege'.
    Last edited by jj-; 05-06-2015 at 08:52 PM.

  18. #16
    I thought this part was scary as hell.

    ‘When we talk about parents’ rights, we’re talking about the person who is parenting the child. How you got to be parenting the child is another issue. One implication of our theory is that it’s not one’s biological relation that does much work in justifying your rights with respect to how the child is parented.

    For Swift and Brighouse, our society is curiously stuck in a time warp of proprietorial rights: if you biologically produce a child you own it.

    ‘We think that although in practice it makes sense to parent your biological offspring, that is not the same as saying that in virtue of having produced the child the biological parent has the right to parent.’

    Then, does the child have a right to be parented by her biological parents? Swift has a ready answer.

    ‘It’s true that in the societies in which we live, biological origins do tend to form an important part of people’s identities, but that is largely a social and cultural construction. So you could imagine societies in which the parent-child relationship could go really well even without there being this biological link.



  19. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    I thought this part was scary as hell.
    You own "it?" I am my child's guardian, she is not an "it," nor do I think I own her--but I do look out for her best interests.

    These people are effing insane. No wonder they have no issue with an abusive gov't taking "ownership" of another human being.
    Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

  21. #18
    Natural Citizen pointed out this thread to me privately. I think he's made an interesting connection.

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5859471

  22. #19
    cue the Handicapper General...
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  23. #20
    Nobody ever read to me and I turned out fine.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Nobody ever read to me and I turned out fine.
    lolz
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Nobody ever read to me and I turned out fine.
    I will read to you, next to the fire, the Grandkids would love it.They could have a young Uncle , LOL

  26. #23
    I be yo daddy, but da dawg beat me over da fence!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  27. #24
    Yes. Everyone is born with advantages and disadvantages. Who cares?

    It is up to YOU to make yourself into a success no matter what advantages or disadvantages you grew up with.



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by jj- View Post
    Equality was always for them cutting the heads of tall people to make everyone of the same height.

    Economic equality is equal poverty.

    Equality in education is having everyone in crappy schools.
    Exactly. These are the same kinds of people who would prefer a society in which everyone makes $10,000/year over a society in which some people make $100,000/year but some other people make "only" $25,000/year - despite the fact that the "worst-off" person in the second scenario would be better off than anyone in the first scenario.

    Apparently, such people use the word "fairness" to denote the alleviation of their own envious resentments - and the worst and most contemptible among them are those self-haters who enviously resent themselves for their own "privelege" and "unfair advantage" ...
    The Bastiat Collection · FREE PDF · FREE EPUB · PAPER
    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      -- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      -- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    · tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Exactly. These are the same kinds of people who would prefer a society in which everyone makes $10,000/year over a society in which some people make $100,000/year but some other people make "only" $25,000/year - despite the fact that the "worst-off" person in the second scenario would be better off than anyone in the first scenario.

    Apparently, such people use the word "fairness" to denote the alleviation of their own envious resentments - and the worst and most contemptible among them are those self-haters who enviously resent themselves for their own "privelege" and "unfair advantage" ...
    Banana dude! You're back!
    "The Patriarch"

  31. #27
    There's only one entity capable of reading to your kids....


  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    cue the Handicapper General...
    Today I decided to get banned and spam activism on this forum...

    SUPPORT RANDPAULDIGITAL GRASSROOTS PROJECTS TODAY!

    http://i.imgur.com/SORJlQ5.png

    For more info. or to help spread the word, go to the promotion thread here.



    Quote Originally Posted by orenbus View Post
    If I had to answer this question truthfully I'd probably piss a lot of people off lol, Barrex would be a better person to ask he doesn't seem to care lol.


  33. #29
    Holy $#@!.


    oh....and Happy Mother's Day, you unfair advantage providers, you!
    Last edited by cajuncocoa; 05-07-2015 at 06:14 AM.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Nobody ever read to me and I turned out fine.
    LOL!
    I probably would've been better off if no one had read to me. My older brothers didn't mind reading to me but they got to pick the stories. I went to bed with comic books on the brain. At least I had Wonder Woman.

    Spoiler, she hits a homer.


    BTW, don't try that unless you're a superhero.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. US blasts Europe’s plan for anti-snooping network as 'unfair advantage'
    By Natural Citizen in forum World News & Affairs
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 06-06-2015, 10:15 AM
  2. Our law is unbalanced and unfair.
    By Vessol in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-11-2011, 04:55 PM
  3. I have to say MSM is being unfair to McCain
    By nicehairmitt in forum Florida
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 01-29-2008, 07:13 PM
  4. TIME UNFAIR? What do you think?
    By Politicallore in forum Florida Debate
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 01-28-2008, 11:51 PM
  5. The most unfair interview yet
    By T206 in forum Grassroots Central
    Replies: 66
    Last Post: 12-05-2007, 07:00 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •