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Thread: The IRS seized $107,000 from this business owner for making too many small cash deposits

  1. #1

    The IRS seized $107,000 from this business owner for making too many small cash deposits



    If you deposit more than $10,000 in cash, your bank is required to file a form with the authorities reporting the transaction. But the law also makes it illegal to "structure" deposits — depositing cash in amounts under $10,000 to avoid triggering the reporting requirement.

    But aggressive enforcement of these laws can ensnare small business owners whose only crime is dealing in cash. This video tells the story of Lyndon McLellan, a convenience store owner in rural North Carolina who had $107,702 seized by the IRS. The agency hasn't charged McLellan with any crime, but under controversial civil asset forfeiture rules the burden of proof is on him to prove he didn't violate the "structuring" laws. The video was made by the Institute for Justice, a libertarian public interest law firm that is representing McLellan.

    Related John Oliver rips into the scandal of for-profit policing
    Eric Holder places a check on civil forfeiture powers

    The New York Times points out that business owners can have legitimate reasons for keeping their cash deposits under $10,000. For example, some store owners have insurance policies that only cover cash losses up to $10,000.

    It won't be easy for McLellan to get his money back. Many forfeiture targets don't bother to contest seizures under civil forfeiture laws because legal fees would exceed the value of what was taken. But with IJ's help, he might be able to recover the money the IRS took from him.

    The IRS declined to comment on the case, citing taxpayer privacy laws.
    http://www.vox.com/2015/5/2/8528845/...vil-forfeiture
    "IF GOD DIDN'T WANT TO HELP AMERICA, THEN WE WOULD HAVE Hillary Clinton"!!
    "let them search you,touch you,violate your Rights,just don't be a dick!"~ cdc482
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    All my life I've been at the mercy of men just following orders... Never again!~Erik Lehnsherr
    There's nothing wrong with stopping people randomly, especially near bars, restaurants etc.~Velho



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  3. #2
    There need to be quite a few substantial changes, quickly.
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  4. #3
    I'm pretty sure this is all tied in with prima facie law, which basically means that upon first impression, if you look guilty, then you have to prove you aren't. It's utter BS!! I hope the IJ is throwing Constitutional law all over the place!
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  5. #4
    You didn't earn that, knave.

  6. #5
    This is the kind of thing, when I tell people about it and they don't care, that makes me want to just kick the props out from under the whole dam thing and watch it all come crumbling apart and bursting into flames. If this is really what these idiots want, I'm tempted to let em have it. Good and hard.

  7. #6
    On the upside, turns out you can just up and seize $100k from a white person and there won't be any resistance, no protesting, no rioting.

    Nothing.

    Hell they won't even sue you.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    On the upside, turns out you can just up and seize $100k from a white person and there won't be any resistance, no protesting, no rioting.

    Nothing.

    Hell they won't even sue you.


    White...




    Guilt!

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    This is the kind of thing, when I tell people about it and they don't care, that makes me want to just kick the props out from under the whole dam thing and watch it all come crumbling apart and bursting into flames. If this is really what these idiots want, I'm tempted to let em have it. Good and hard.
    The government of King George would not have even thought of doing $#@! like this.

    And this occurs every single day in AmeriKa.

    Land of the free, my aching $#@!ing ass.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    On the upside, turns out you can just up and seize $100k from a white person and there won't be any resistance, no protesting, no rioting.

    Nothing.

    Hell they won't even sue you.
    Not sure if serious.

    But I am, yes, what you said, exactly.

  12. #10

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post

    Someone actually did that in Texas. Crashed an airplane into the IRS Building. (Although this looks an awful lot like the NSA HQ in VA/MD) I remember they first tried to blame Ron Paul, when that failed, they tried to blame the Tea Party, when that failed it came out that the guy was a wingnut progressive liberal. Then the media suddenly stopped talking about it.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    I'm pretty sure this is all tied in with prima facie law, which basically means that upon first impression, if you look guilty, then you have to prove you aren't. It's utter BS!! I hope the IJ is throwing Constitutional law all over the place!
    IRS never heard of the Constitution... Their motto is guilty until we say your not. How did that 16th Amendment every get ratified?

    Regards

    Acesfull

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by acesfull View Post
    IRS never heard of the Constitution... Their motto is guilty until we say your not. How did that 16th Amendment every get ratified?

    Regards

    Acesfull
    Short answer is: it didn't.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    Someone actually did that in Texas. Crashed an airplane into the IRS Building. (Although this looks an awful lot like the NSA HQ in VA/MD) I remember they first tried to blame Ron Paul, when that failed, they tried to blame the Tea Party, when that failed it came out that the guy was a wingnut progressive liberal. Then the media suddenly stopped talking about it.
    That's the one....

    [IMG]http://static01.********/images/2010/02/18/us/18cnd-planespan/18cnd-planespan-articleLarge.jpg[/IMG]

  17. #15
    $#@!ty banks nowadays why does anyone even do business with them? A lot try to charge you negative interest for holding and profiting off your money, then they enable the government to just steal everything.
    A savage barbaric tribal society where thugs parade the streets and illegally assault and murder innocent civilians, yeah that is the alternative to having police. Oh wait, that is the police

    We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
    - Edward R. Murrow

    ...I think we have moral obligations to disobey unjust laws, because non-cooperation with evil is as much as a moral obligation as cooperation with good. - MLK Jr.

    How to trigger a liberal: "I didn't get vaccinated."

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ClydeCoulter View Post
    There need to be quite a few substantial changes, quickly.
    Yea, counting them is a burden. With a lawful and peaceful revolution we can just start making changes and not worry about how many.

    It is such a delicious thought to sit down at an Internet forum designed to create accountability and informed opinion for the purpose of deciding which amendment must be revised how, or what kind of amendment will stop a corrupt agency from operating in manners inconsistent with the intent of their creation.

    I can envision officials and Americans using their real names in exchanges where Americans voice their concerns and officials suggest where amendment might have the desired effect. Side effects and after effects are evaluated. Query upon policy guides development of how Article V can be used to stop federal over control, abuses of power, neglect and malfeasance.

    It will be a beautiful day!

    I've already conceived of the software. Had an anonymous member take it to a major software producer, they were afraid to make it. Said, "They were were not going to be the company that put the people in dominance over corporations."

    http://algoxy.com/poly/poll_to_post.html



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  20. #17
    If a white dude went on a violent protest against government abuse, would the community be there to join in, or just stand by and think, "what a lone nut".

    The conditioning is real.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    If a white dude went on a violent protest against government abuse, would the community be there to join in, or just stand by and think, "what a lone nut".

    The conditioning is real.
    I don't even look white, I'm dark complected as hell, look nothing like my relatives...but I sympathize with what you are saying.

    I posted, just a bit ago on FB, that "Do we have like a battered wife syndrome, or a guilt trip syndrome, that someone can be "asset seiezured or asset forfeitured and we do nothing?"
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    If a white dude went on a violent protest against government abuse, would the community be there to join in, or just stand by and think, "what a lone nut".

    The conditioning is real.
    I'd be more inclined to consider that perspective from somebody who is not a POS foreign instigator intent to watch such as entertainment. As to a 'violent protest', I'd pick one course or the other. What you promote - or expect - is suicide.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by The Free Hornet View Post
    I'd be more inclined to consider that perspective from somebody who is not a POS foreign instigator intent to watch such as entertainment. As to a 'violent protest', I'd pick one course or the other. What you promote - or expect - is suicide.
    Its a prisoners dilemma innit. If nobody joins you, you are toast. If a million people join you, its a legit historical protest.

    The arab spring started with a dude just deciding he was definitely toast and setting himself on fire.

    Meanwhile pretty much every red line any of us would have thought up 20 years ago has since been crossed.

    Its only the Paul movement gaining real traction and momentum that provides any relief valve.

    The people in Baltimore, they got a black progressive President and *nothing changed*. That has got to kill hope for political progress.

    What is holding a chunk of the country together is the sheer belief that Rand Paul won't sell out.

    If he, or someone following him, doesn't bring serious reform, then a lot of people are going to consider the ballot box exhausted and move to the next box.


    In the meantime, I promote peaceful, intense political activism. Its why I am here. I think there is a lot more room for Rand to fill the national Civil Rights Leader vacuum.
    Last edited by idiom; 05-03-2015 at 12:27 AM.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  24. #21
    Well, it looks like raising cain on the Internet has done good for once.

    LAWNEWS
    Federal Government to Return $107,702 Seized From North Carolina Convenience Store Owner
    Melissa Quinn / @MelissaQuinn97 / May 14, 2015 / 140 comments

    After months of sleepless nights since having more than $107,700 seized by the Internal Revenue Service, L&M Convenience Mart owner Lyndon McLellan learned yesterday the government decided to dismiss the case that lost him his money.

    “It’s a relief to know that you’re getting something back that’s yours to start with,” McLellan told The Daily Signal. “I wanted [the government] to do what was right, and I felt what was right was for me to get my money back.”

    Read More

  25. #22
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Ive heard people say that the structuring code (its not law, its code) is only relevant for multiple transactions in one day that are so structured so that they fall under the $10k reporting requirement but would not apply to single daily transactions... In a cursory look at the code I couldnt find this.. However I did see a lot of exemptions (especially from all banks and govt orgs) as well as other exemptions at the treasury's discretion..


    if anybody knows where to look for the above info. Id be curious to look at it. but right now Im just too lazy to look thru the code anymore... its so verbose and Ive already wasted enough saturdays looking up SCOTUS rulings that the govt ignores anyway..

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Mitrosky View Post
    Ive heard people say that the structuring code (its not law, its code) is only relevant for multiple transactions in one day that are so structured so that they fall under the $10k reporting requirement but would not apply to single daily transactions... In a cursory look at the code I couldnt find this.. However I did see a lot of exemptions (especially from all banks and govt orgs) as well as other exemptions at the treasury's discretion..


    if anybody knows where to look for the above info. Id be curious to look at it. but right now Im just too lazy to look thru the code anymore... its so verbose and Ive already wasted enough saturdays looking up SCOTUS rulings that the govt ignores anyway..
    "US Code" is what they call the body of laws that Congress passes.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5324
    31 U.S. Code § 5324 - Structuring transactions to evade reporting requirement prohibited

    (a) Domestic Coin and Currency Transactions Involving Financial Institutions.— No person shall, for the purpose of evading the reporting requirements of section 5313 (a) or 5325 or any regulation prescribed under any such section, the reporting or recordkeeping requirements imposed by any order issued under section 5326, or the recordkeeping requirements imposed by any regulation prescribed under section 21 of the Federal Deposit Insurance Act or section 123 ofPublic Law 91–508—
    (1) cause or attempt to cause a domestic financial institution to fail to file a report required under section 5313 (a) or 5325 or any regulation prescribed under any such section, to file a report or to maintain a record required by an order issued under section 5326, or to maintain a record required pursuant to any regulation prescribed under section 21 of the Federal Deposit Insurance Act or section 123 ofPublic Law 91–508;
    (2) cause or attempt to cause a domestic financial institution to file a report required under section 5313 (a) or 5325 or any regulation prescribed under any such section, to file a report or to maintain a record required by any order issued under section 5326, or to maintain a record required pursuant to any regulation prescribed under section 5326, or to maintain a record required pursuant to any regulation prescribed under section 21 of the Federal Deposit Insurance Act or section 123 of Public Law 91–508, that contains a material omission or misstatement of fact; or
    (3) structure or assist in structuring, or attempt to structure or assist in structuring, any transaction with one or more domestic financial institutions.

    (b) Domestic Coin and Currency Transactions Involving Nonfinancial Trades or Businesses.— No person shall, for the purpose of evading the report requirements of section 5331 or any regulation prescribed under such section—
    (1) cause or attempt to cause a nonfinancial trade or business to fail to file a report required under section 5331 or any regulation prescribed under such section;
    (2) cause or attempt to cause a nonfinancial trade or business to file a report required under section 5331 or any regulation prescribed under such section that contains a material omission or misstatement of fact; or
    (3) structure or assist in structuring, or attempt to structure or assist in structuring, any transaction with 1 or more nonfinancial trades or businesses.

    (c) International Monetary Instrument Transactions.— No person shall, for the purpose of evading the reporting requirements of section 5316—
    (1) fail to file a report required by section 5316, or cause or attempt to cause a person to fail to file such a report;
    (2) file or cause or attempt to cause a person to file a report required under section 5316 that contains a material omission or misstatement of fact; or
    (3) structure or assist in structuring, or attempt to structure or assist in structuring, any importation or exportation of monetary instruments.

    (d) Criminal Penalty.—
    (1) In general.— Whoever violates this section shall be fined in accordance with title 18, United States Code, imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both.
    (2) Enhanced penalty for aggravated cases.— Whoever violates this section while violating another law of the United States or as part of a pattern of any illegal activity involving more than $100,000 in a 12-month period shall be fined twice the amount provided in subsection (b)(3) or (c)(3) (as the case may be) of section 3571 of title 18, United States Code, imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or both.
    Last edited by GunnyFreedom; 05-16-2015 at 11:27 AM.

  27. #24
    I make several large cash deposits for the company I work for every month. When it goes over the limit I have to give them MY social security number which irks the heck out of me because it's not MY money. It gets reported to DHS. I have to go inside the bank..the process takes twice as long. I can understand why people try to avoid it.
    Last edited by Carlybee; 08-06-2015 at 04:15 AM.



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  29. #25
    NC Forfeiture Victim Wins Final Vindication In Fight Against IRS
    Arlington, Va.—This week a federal court handed down a long-awaited decision vindicating Lyndon McLellan in his fight against the IRS.

    ..

    In returning Lyndon’s money, however, the government sought to avoid its obligation under federal law to pay Lyndon’s attorneys’ fees, costs, and interest. Lyndon racked up nearly $20,000 in fees owed to his accountant and lawyer before the Institute for Justice took his case on a pro bono basis.

    The district court’s decision rejected the government’s maneuver, stating:

    Certainly, the damage inflicted upon an innocent person or business is immense when, although it has done nothing wrong, its money and property are seized. Congress, acknowledging the harsh realities of civil forfeiture practice, sought to lessen the blow to innocent citizens who have had their property stripped from them by the Government. . . . This court will not discard lightly the right of a citizen to seek the relief Congress has afforded.
    “Today’s decision recognizes that Lyndon should not have to pay for the government’s outrageous use of civil forfeiture laws against a totally innocent property owner,” said IJ Attorney Robert Everett Johnson. “The government took Lyndon’s property even though he did nothing wrong, forcing him into a prolonged and expensive legal nightmare. Now the government will have to comply with its obligation to make Lyndon at least partly whole.”

    The decision comes just as the United States Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit prepares to consider the government’s similar attempt to avoid paying fees, costs, and interest to Carole Hinders—an Iowa restaurant owner who also had her entire bank account seized and then returned. The Eighth Circuit will hold oral argument in that case on February 9 in St. Paul, MN.

    ...
    http://ij.org/press-release/nc-forfe...t-against-irs/
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  30. #26
    OMG, not only is he getting his money back, the judge says the gov't has to pay the legal fees!! Waaaaah! Justice!?!?!?!?





    http://dailysignal.com/2016/02/03/ju...ed-by-the-irs/


    A federal court delivered a victory to a North Carolina convenience store owner from whom the IRS had seized $107,700, directing the government to reimburse him for more than $20,000 in legal fees and expenses.

    Lyndon McLellan, who owns a convenience store in Fairmont, N.C., already had won back the $107,700 the Internal Revenue Service took from him in 2014.

    A federal judge ruled Tuesday that the federal government is required to pay McLellan’s legal fees, expenses and interest earned on the money the IRS seized in a case that could set a “powerful precedent” for victims of forfeiture fighting to be made whole.

    “When the government takes people’s property without justification and then tries to walk away—what this decision really stands for is the idea that the government doesn’t get to put the cost of its mistake on the person who has done nothing wrong,” Robert Johnson, a lawyer with the Institute for Justice who represented McLellan, told The Daily Signal. Johnson added:

    When the government takes someone’s life and turns it upside down by taking their money through civil forfeiture and then realizes it’s made a mistake, the government has to be the one to bear the costs.


    The Daily Signal first reported in May that the IRS had seized the $107,000 from McLellan’s bank account. Days later, the government moved to dismiss the case and cited changes to the Justice Department’s policy regarding civil asset forfeiture made in March as its reason for dropping the action.

    In his ruling, U.S. District Judge James Fox said McLellan was fully within his right to demand the government pay for his legal fees and expenses, as is guaranteed under the Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act of 2000. Fox wrote:

    [T]he damage inflicted upon an innocent person or business is immense when, although it has done nothing wrong, its money and property are seized. Congress, acknowledging the harsh realities of civil forfeiture practice, sought to lessen the blow to innocent citizens who have had their property stripped by the government. …

    This court will not discard lightly the right of a citizen to seek the relief Congress has afforded.

    McLellan and Johnson have fought for full compensation for McLellan for more than eight months. Although Johnson contended the “wheels of justice turn slowly,” he called the decision a “vindication.”

    “For Lyndon, I spoke with him and he’s absolutely thrilled about this decision,” Johnson said. “This is vindication that has been a long time coming. Lyndon did nothing wrong and it’s gratifying to see a federal judge stick up for that fact and to make things right.”

    McLellan has owned and operated L&M Convenience Mart since 2001. According to court documents, the IRS seized his money because agents believed he had committed “structuring” violations. McLellan, however, was never charged with a crime.

    Structuring involves making consistent cash deposits or withdrawals of just under $10,000 into or out of a bank account to avoid federal reporting requirements. Law enforcement targeted structuring as a way to stop money laundering and drug trafficking.

    However, several instances have arisen involving innocent Americans such as McLellan who were unaware they were violating the law in the first place.

    The government can seize money—as it did in McLellan’s case—from those accused of committing structuring violations under a subset of civil asset forfeiture laws that govern cash transactions.

    Though McLellan went on to receive the full $107,702.66 the IRS seized, the government moved to dismiss the case without covering his legal fees and expenses, as well as interest earned on the money.

    Under the Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act, passed by Congress in 2000, McLellan and others who successfully challenge a forfeiture are entitled to those fees and expenses, which totaled more than $20,000 in McLellan’s case. Johnson, McLellan’s lawyer, said:

    The court said very strongly if you’ve taken money from an innocent person and put them through what the court calls the harsh realities of the civil forfeiture practice, then you should have to make them whole. The government has a very aggressive interpretation of the structuring laws and believes that it was in its right to take Lyndon’s money.

    Johnson said the federal court’s decision could have a significant impact on future cases involving forfeiture victims who are fighting to have their lawyers fees and expenses covered by the government.

    He specifically cited the case of Iowa restaurant owner Carole Hinders, who, with the Institute for Justice, is heading before the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit to argue the government should pay more than $67,000 in legal fees and expenses she accrued by challenging the forfeiture.

    The IRS seized nearly $33,000 from Hinders’ cash-only restaurant in August 2013, saying she committed structuring violations. She received her money back in December 2014.

    “This decision gives us a very strong tailwind heading into that argument, and it’s something that we’re going to be citing to the court,” Johnson said. “Lyndon now is going to be made whole, and Carole deserves to have the same result.”



    One can only hope a precedent is being set and now a domino effect will take place where the IRS making a mistake in grabbing money then has to pay back the expenses the victim used to get his innocent money back. Even bigger is when this precedent is applied to police officers, policing for profit. If suddenly the departments have to pay back out of their budgets maybe it slows down their money train just a little.

  31. #27
    LibForestPaul
    Member

    honest question, any federal tax judge, prosecutor, or state legislator calling for end to asset confiscation .

  32. #28

  33. #29
    The United States does not have any power to establish intrastate financial record keeping and reporting requires, only--to wit, they have, for the most part, either abrogated to a private entity or made specific exemptions for qualified private entities:

    To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

    To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Mani View Post
    OMG, not only is he getting his money back, the judge says the gov't has to pay the legal fees!! Waaaaah! Justice!?!?!?!?


    One can only hope a precedent is being set and now a domino effect will take place where the IRS making a mistake in grabbing money then has to pay back the expenses the victim used to get his innocent money back. Even bigger is when this precedent is applied to police officers, policing for profit. If suddenly the departments have to pay back out of their budgets maybe it slows down their money train just a little.
    They'll just add a few more box cars.

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