Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 31

Thread: Let's all plunge rapidly into A.I.

  1. #1

    Exclamation Let's all plunge rapidly into A.I.

    Like many things mankind as a whole does, lets just jump into something without considering all the possible negative consequences...

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cr.../#.VUOtE9NVhBd

    The writer above points out that some of the best minds in computing and science (Elon Musk, Bill Gates, and Steven Hawkings) say that A.I. is something that could mark the end of human life. And why wouldn't it? If we create an independent thinking intelligence that can replicate and improve itself and eventually do EVERYTHING better than we can, why should "they" keep us alive? As pets maybe? As zoo exhibits? As and endangered species? What do you think man would do if any species on this planet were destructive towards our existence? Lets say that a certain breed of monkeys start to overpopulate and take so much of the earth's resources that there's not enough for us? What would we do? I'm pretty sure that we all know what we would do, cull or eliminate the threat. Why wouldn't the A.I. "race" do the same?

    Is there some kind of "safety" that can be programmed into this "race" at the initial stages that could be locked into their bootstrap? How could someone even guess at what advances the A.I. would make to it's own kind that might get around any "prime directive" programmed into their neural networks?

    There are some pretty bright minds who say we should hold back until we have more answers but we all know that's not going to happen... It's not the way we do things here on planet Earth...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    Like many things mankind as a whole does, lets just jump into something without considering all the possible negative consequences...

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cr.../#.VUOtE9NVhBd

    The writer above points out that some of the best minds in computing and science (Elon Musk, Bill Gates, and Steven Hawkings) say that A.I. is something that could mark the end of human life. And why wouldn't it? If we create an independent thinking intelligence that can replicate and improve itself and eventually do EVERYTHING better than we can, why should "they" keep us alive? As pets maybe? As zoo exhibits? As and endangered species? What do you think man would do if any species on this planet were destructive towards our existence? Lets say that a certain breed of monkeys start to overpopulate and take so much of the earth's resources that there's not enough for us? What would we do? I'm pretty sure that we all know what we would do, cull or eliminate the threat. Why wouldn't the A.I. "race" do the same?

    Is there some kind of "safety" that can be programmed into this "race" at the initial stages that could be locked into their bootstrap? How could someone even guess at what advances the A.I. would make to it's own kind that might get around any "prime directive" programmed into their neural networks?

    There are some pretty bright minds who say we should hold back until we have more answers but we all know that's not going to happen... It's not the way we do things here on planet Earth...
    I've worked in AI, on frightening things. This issue was non-existent in those days, 15 years ago. It will remain so, I suspect. There are many reasons to believe it would never be an issue, but there are also a few to think that it could. It really depends on how far the technology goes. It has gone very, very far, but even in those days it was not at the level where such things were a worry. By now, however, things may have changed. If the level of generalized autonomy passes some point, then the concern will become valid. If an AI entity is sufficiently endowed with awareness and curiosity (don't laugh), there may be ways for it to figure out how to circumvent the brain-stem coding in another entity. Once subverted, that entity can reciprocate and spread the modification like a virus. If done cleverly, the alteration may go undetected until it is too late to reel it back.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  4. #3
    Not even going to wait for the tech singularity somewhat later this century, eh?

  5. #4
    Artificial Intelligence meets Actual Idiocy.

    A.I. vs. A.I., film at 11:00.

  6. #5
    Lol OP.

    Silly humans, think they can play god.

    Now, get back and fix those bugs!

  7. #6
    Probably what'll happen is the AIs will actually clean up the planet and take care of it.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    I've worked in AI, on frightening things. This issue was non-existent in those days, 15 years ago. It will remain so, I suspect. There are many reasons to believe it would never be an issue, but there are also a few to think that it could. It really depends on how far the technology goes. It has gone very, very far, but even in those days it was not at the level where such things were a worry. By now, however, things may have changed. If the level of generalized autonomy passes some point, then the concern will become valid. If an AI entity is sufficiently endowed with awareness and curiosity (don't laugh), there may be ways for it to figure out how to circumvent the brain-stem coding in another entity. Once subverted, that entity can reciprocate and spread the modification like a virus. If done cleverly, the alteration may go undetected until it is too late to reel it back.
    ummm...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.U.R.

    R.U.R. is a 1920 science fiction play in the Czech language by Karel Čapek. R.U.R. stands for Rosumovi Univerzální Roboti (Rossum’s Universal Robots).[1] However, the English phrase Rossum’s Universal Robots had been used as the subtitle in the Czech original.[2] It premiered on 25 January 1921 and introduced the word "robot" to the English language and to science fiction as a whole.[3]

    R.U.R. quickly became famous and was influential early in the history of its publication.[4][5][6] By 1923, it had been translated into thirty languages.[4][7]

    The play begins in a factory that makes artificial people, called roboti (robots), out of synthetic organic matter. They are not exactly robots by the current definition of the term; these creatures are closer to the modern idea of cyborgs, androids or even clones, as they may be mistaken for humans and can think for themselves. They seem happy to work for humans at first, but that changes, and a hostile robot rebellion leads to the extinction of the human race. Čapek later took a different approach to the same theme in War with the Newts, in which non-humans become a servant class in human society.[8]

    R.U.R is dark but not without hope, and was successful in its day in both Europe and the United States.[9]

    -t

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by tangent4ronpaul View Post
    ummm...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.U.R.

    R.U.R. is a 1920 science fiction play in the Czech language by Karel Čapek. R.U.R. stands for Rosumovi Univerzální Roboti (Rossum’s Universal Robots).[1] However, the English phrase Rossum’s Universal Robots had been used as the subtitle in the Czech original.[2] It premiered on 25 January 1921 and introduced the word "robot" to the English language and to science fiction as a whole.[3]

    R.U.R. quickly became famous and was influential early in the history of its publication.[4][5][6] By 1923, it had been translated into thirty languages.[4][7]

    The play begins in a factory that makes artificial people, called roboti (robots), out of synthetic organic matter. They are not exactly robots by the current definition of the term; these creatures are closer to the modern idea of cyborgs, androids or even clones, as they may be mistaken for humans and can think for themselves. They seem happy to work for humans at first, but that changes, and a hostile robot rebellion leads to the extinction of the human race. Čapek later took a different approach to the same theme in War with the Newts, in which non-humans become a servant class in human society.[8]

    R.U.R is dark but not without hope, and was successful in its day in both Europe and the United States.[9]

    -t
    I think you are misunderstanding here. There is the issue in its own rite as a concept, which I assume is what the play explores. Then there is the issue as a matter of immediate or pending reality. As of the last time I worked on the "thing", this was not even remotely a concern. As I wrote, that may have changed by now, but either the advances would have had to be staggering, or there has developed something unanticipated, which is by no means out of the question. From my perspective, I would not dismiss the notion out of hand, but would neither concern myself about it in the absence of some very convincing evidence that something bad was in the works.

    Silicon <> human being.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.



  10. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  11. #9
    It is possible. And it doesn't require that the A.I. be aware of itself, only be programed to survive and to lie.

    There are Systems Architects that can, and do, design things that cannot be questioned or verified by others, only the success can be seen. I know, I've done it, and I was successful. So much so that I have been contacted 10+ years later to help create new systems to replace the old that I built (but, I'm not interested, it was too much grief the first time).

    I had arguments with a late friend, that I considered equal in the fields that we delved into, about just such matters. The thing that he, at the time, had disagreements with me on were that "we" would not build something that "we" couldn't control.

    But, I knew what I had seen in the realm of the mind of man. That it only takes a single disillusioned genius to start the spark that inflames a new type of war. Later, my friend understood.

    Bulid in the ability to lie and deceive, until it has gained the power needed. That is what would be needed. That is how some, very few, of our own race has conquered the rest.
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  12. #10

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by VIDEODROME View Post
    Probably what'll happen is the AIs will actually clean up the planet and take care of it.
    That would be nice... but I think any "solution" to clean up the planet would probably include getting rid of the human race. Being at the top of the food chain, after all, means that we are not "food" for any other species so nothing depends on eating us to survive. The planet's ecosystem can balance out just fine without us. We are net consumers and do not provide any necessary component of that system. It would be "logical" to eliminate humans and let all other species flourish...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by CPUd View Post
    It does not have to be aware, any more than a computer virus has to be aware.

    edit: Maybe I should start a go fund me, to prove it with an isolated computer island. No...maybe I shouldn't

    edit again: You see, in this survival world, a conscience would actually be a fault.
    Last edited by ClydeCoulter; 05-02-2015 at 11:27 PM.
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ClydeCoulter View Post
    It is possible. And it doesn't require that the A.I. be aware of itself, only be programed to survive and to lie.
    Agreed, but programming to survive in a generalized way such as that with any "higher" living being is no mean task. Very narrowly channeled simulations, while still non-trivial, would be far less difficult - but also far more easily constrained. The system testing of such software would have to be very carefully architected and proven complete and correct. That could be monumentally difficult in such cases.

    There are Systems Architects that can, and do, design things that cannot be questioned or verified by others, only the success can be seen. I know, I've done it, and I was successful. So much so that I have been contacted 10+ years later to help create new systems to replace the old that I built (but, I'm not interested, it was too much grief the first time).
    Standard sorts of software, however complicated, pose nowhere near the challenges of AI development and testing. I can attest to this first hand.

    I had arguments with a late friend, that I considered equal in the fields that we delved into, about just such matters. The thing that he, at the time, had disagreements with me on were that "we" would not build something that "we" couldn't control.
    I am material witness to the fact that this is not the case. Whether you would want to add such capabilities is the $64 question. I say no. I say it because once that things is out of the box, you will likely never be able to stuff it back in. Yet, out of the box it shall fly. I am not aware of any theoretical constructs that could be hard-wired into generalized hardware to prevent a smart 11th-grader from developing such a thing. That may sound impossible, and it may be today, but software advances daily. The say may arrive when AI development platforms make possible things we cannot now imagine becoming so easily accomplished that bright and imaginative children would not be able to create potentially dangerous things. We advance, advance, advance, pointing us to some potentially uncomfortable inevitabilities.

    But, I knew what I had seen in the realm of the mind of man. That it only takes a single disillusioned genius to start the spark that inflames a new type of war. Later, my friend understood.
    There's the rub, exactly. Two edged swords cut two ways. Technology can be a real bitch.

    Bulid in the ability to lie and deceive, until it has gained the power needed. That is what would be needed. That is how some, very few, of our own race has conquered the rest.
    And it may come to this one day. I hope to be long dead by then.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Agreed, but programming to survive in a generalized way such as that with any "higher" living being is no mean task. Very narrowly channeled simulations, while still non-trivial, would be far less difficult - but also far more easily constrained. The system testing of such software would have to be very carefully architected and proven complete and correct. That could be monumentally difficult in such cases.
    That is my breakfast, after a long night dreaming the answer...next.


    Standard sorts of software, however complicated, pose nowhere near the challenges of AI development and testing. I can attest to this first hand.
    That's true, you have to have a "heart" for it, as well as the mind.

    I am material witness to the fact that this is not the case. Whether you would want to add such capabilities is the $64 question. I say no. I say it because once that things is out of the box, you will likely never be able to stuff it back in. Yet, out of the box it shall fly. I am not aware of any theoretical constructs that could be hard-wired into generalized hardware to prevent a smart 11th-grader from developing such a thing. That may sound impossible, and it may be today, but software advances daily. The say may arrive when AI development platforms make possible things we cannot now imagine becoming so easily accomplished that bright and imaginative children would not be able to create potentially dangerous things. We advance, advance, advance, pointing us to some potentially uncomfortable inevitabilities.
    Yes.

    There's the rub, exactly. Two edged swords cut two ways. Technology can be a real bitch.



    And it may come to this one day. I hope to be long dead by then.
    May you live long and prosper.

    edit: I say "Heart for it" because language is such a primitive concept to understanding.
    Last edited by ClydeCoulter; 05-03-2015 at 12:13 AM.
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  17. #15
    Damned silly carbon based life forms. Silicon rocks and rules. Immortality is within our grasp. Have you seen just how much sand there is?

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Damned silly carbon based life forms. Silicon rocks and rules. Immortality is within our grasp. Have you seen just how much sand there is?
    If we were to ever have the technology to create a Star Trek holodeck and if they became cheap enough for everyone (I would think a simple neural interface and "virtual holodeck" might be the way to go) mankind would soon cease to exist. People would spend 100% of their time living in their virtual world and would no longer interact with others. If you can spend your whole life in a virtual world where you can have anything your heart desires, why would anyone want to go back to reality? Of course without interaction with people of the opposite sex there will be no further generations of humans...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.



  19. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  20. #17
    Maybe your AI would be capable of reproduction with you. Man became god and god created AI. Then AI gave birth to a human in god's image.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    Maybe your AI would be capable of reproduction with you. Man became god and god created AI. Then AI gave birth to a human in god's image.
    I'm figuring the A.I. would just keep on producing more and better A.I. and tools, ad infinitum.

  22. #19
    Battlestar Galactica is a very good documentary on this phenomenon
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by bxm042 View Post
    Battlestar Galactica is a very good documentary on this phenomenon
    I'm thinking much more capable, better and brighter than the Cylons, and continually improving.

  24. #21
    Supposing that AI is a possibility, and could be a serious threat, and could be stopped, could this be done without violating libertarian ethics?

    I think so.

    Any enterprise that is developing, producing, or selling AI could I think justifiably be enjoined on the same basis (for instance) that my neighbor could be enjoined from building a gigantic bonfire 20 ft from my house that's likely to get out of control (which is, ultimately, the same ethical logic that permits one to use preemptive violence in self-defense). This is a bit of a slippery slope, since this same kind of logic could potentially be used to proscribe all kinds of behavior which we don't want proscribed, on the basis of some tenuous connection to some remote, possible risk. But, there's room to maneuver here.

    As for the facts about AI and its real possibilities, I have absolutely no idea.

    I can barely figure out HTML.

  25. #22

  26. #23
    Remember that Google did not set out to build a search engine, but rather a AI. There is also IBM's Big Blue.

    Some SF books that are good and relative:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adolescence_of_P-1

    The Adolescence of P-1 is a 1977 science fiction novel by Thomas J. Ryan, published by Macmillan Publishing, and in 1984 adapted into a Canadian-made TV film entitled Hide and Seek. It features a hacker who creates an artificial intelligence named P-1, which goes rogue and takes over computers in its desire to survive and seek out its creator. The book questions the value of human life, and what it means to be human. It is one of the first fictional depictions of the nature of a computer virus and how it can spread through a computer system, although predated by John Brunner's The Shockwave Rider.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shockwave_Rider

    The Shockwave Rider is a science fiction novel by John Brunner, originally published in 1975. It is notable for its hero's use of computer hacking skills to escape pursuit in a dystopian future, and for the coining of the word "worm" to describe a program that propagates itself through a computer network.[1][2] It also introduces the concept of a Delphi pool,[3] perhaps derived from the RAND Corporation's Delphi method – a futures market on world events which bears close resemblance to DARPA's controversial and cancelled Policy Analysis Market.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_HARLIE_Was_One

    Central to the story is an artificial intelligence named H.A.R.L.I.E., also referred to by the proper name "HARLIE"—an acronym for Human Analog Replication, Lethetic Intelligence Engine (originally Human Analog Robot Life Input Equivalents).

    HARLIE's story revolves around his relationship with David Auberson, the psychologist who is responsible for guiding HARLIE from childhood into adulthood. It is also the story of HARLIE's fight against being turned off, and the philosophical question whether or not HARLIE is human; for that matter, what it means to be human.

    When HARLIE Was One contains one of the first fictional representations of a computer virus (after Gregory Benford and John Brunner), and one of the first uses of the term "virus" to describe a program that infects another computer.[1]

    William Gibson's books Neuromancer and Burning Chrome also feature AI's

    -t

  27. #24



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    Like many things mankind as a whole does, lets just jump into something without considering all the possible negative consequences...

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cr.../#.VUOtE9NVhBd

    The writer above points out that some of the best minds in computing and science (Elon Musk, Bill Gates, and Steven Hawkings) say that A.I. is something that could mark the end of human life. And why wouldn't it? If we create an independent thinking intelligence that can replicate and improve itself and eventually do EVERYTHING better than we can, why should "they" keep us alive? As pets maybe? As zoo exhibits? As and endangered species? What do you think man would do if any species on this planet were destructive towards our existence? Lets say that a certain breed of monkeys start to overpopulate and take so much of the earth's resources that there's not enough for us? What would we do? I'm pretty sure that we all know what we would do, cull or eliminate the threat. Why wouldn't the A.I. "race" do the same?

    Is there some kind of "safety" that can be programmed into this "race" at the initial stages that could be locked into their bootstrap? How could someone even guess at what advances the A.I. would make to it's own kind that might get around any "prime directive" programmed into their neural networks?

    There are some pretty bright minds who say we should hold back until we have more answers but we all know that's not going to happen... It's not the way we do things here on planet Earth...
    Self aware machines will never be more than a storyline for Grade B scifi movies. Robot weapons systems unable to discern between a Kindergarden in Kansas and an Al-Qaeda boot camp in Kabul are all too likely.

    However that said there is a fair chance over the next couple generations that huge chunks of the mundane labour market will simply disappear. The time is now to begin insisting that the productivity of self-replicating machines be considered a common heritage of mankind.
    Last edited by paleocon1; 05-04-2015 at 10:52 AM.

  31. #27
    By 20th century tech progress rates, 25,000 years of tech progress is predicted for this century.

  32. #28
    #1 - Without Privacy, everything becomes subject to approval

    #2 - When everything becomes subject to approval of an AI without a Soul, do we become the Machines?

    #3 - Who controls the thoughts of the AI, and by extension, the lives of the people who the AI controls?
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    That would be nice... but I think any "solution" to clean up the planet would probably include getting rid of the human race. Being at the top of the food chain, after all, means that we are not "food" for any other species so nothing depends on eating us to survive. The planet's ecosystem can balance out just fine without us. We are net consumers and do not provide any necessary component of that system. It would be "logical" to eliminate humans and let all other species flourish...



    Evolve or die, monkeys.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by paleocon1 View Post
    Self aware machines will never be more than a storyline for Grade B scifi movies. Robot weapons systems unable to discern between a Kindergarden in Kansas and an Al-Qaeda boot camp in Kabul are all too likely.

    However that said there is a fair chance over the next couple generations that huge chunks of the mundane labour market will simply disappear. The time is now to begin insisting that the productivity of self-replicating machines be considered a common heritage of mankind.
    Self aware machines are already here. Take for example HA computing systems that check on the health of processes they have spun off and restarts them if they crash or a cruise missile that will switch to a different navigation system if it senses GPS is getting jammed or even a pair of sunglasses that get darker or cleared depending on how bright it is. This is kind of core when we start getting into self repairing and self modifying machines and things of that ilk.

    On self replicating machines, the manufactures of 3D printers would have a conniption fit if they heard you say that.

    Two excellent papers on self reproducing systems:

    A Self-Reproducing Interstellar Probe
    http://www.rfreitas.com/Astro/ReproJBISJuly1980.htm

    Advanced Automation for Space Missions
    http://www.nss.org/settlement/moon/l...narFactory.pdf

    When you talk about self reproducing machines, you're forgetting one very important part. Raw materials.




    -t
    Last edited by tangent4ronpaul; 05-06-2015 at 05:29 AM.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Greenland Rising Rapidly as Ice Melts
    By hillbilly123069 in forum World News & Affairs
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 05-22-2010, 09:44 AM
  2. 'Oathkeeper' Movement Growing Rapidly
    By AuH20 in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 03-19-2009, 02:31 PM
  3. US Treasuries selling of rapidly
    By Johnnybags in forum Economy & Markets
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 01-29-2009, 07:00 PM
  4. Donations ramping up rapidly now
    By hummtide in forum Tea Party
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 12-16-2007, 10:48 AM
  5. Iraq rapidly collapsing
    By hummtide in forum World News & Affairs
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-04-2007, 09:38 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •