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Thread: Transgender Identity—Wishing Away God’s Design

  1. #1

    Transgender Identity—Wishing Away God’s Design

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    In the 1940 film Pinocchio, Jiminy Cricket sang those famous lyrics to a woeful little wooden boy who wanted to become something different. The tale is touching. In our day, however, people no longer apply such inspirational messages in traditional ways. “Anything your heart desires” has been hijacked.

    In ways that Walt Disney could not imagine, such slogans now inspire people to surgically remake themselves. Witness the spread of “transgender” identity, in which men seek to become women and women seek to become men. In 2015, this is no extraordinary occurrence. It is an increasing trend and a major worldview challenge to the Christian church.

    How Should We View the Body as Christians?
    The creators of Pinocchio, of course, did not have “transgender” individuals in view when they made their famous movie. They simply wanted boys and girls to dream big. As the West has lost its Judeo-Christian moral constraints and its traditional vision of manhood and womanhood, we have embraced a radical individualism. This mindset has created what theologian R. Albert Mohler Jr. has called a “culture shift.”

    Radical individualism casts off all moral restraints in order to achieve maximum personal happiness. In my book Risky Gospel, I call this mindset Narcissistic Optimistic Deism.1 “I can do whatever I want,” many people think, “and God exists to make all my dreams come true.” This perspective has influenced how many people view their body. The body is not made by God for His glory. It is a blank slate upon which we may draw any identity, any self-expression, we choose. Use it, abuse it, do whatever you want with it. This is a neo-pagan idea.

    The Bible teaches a very different perspective. Our manhood or womanhood is not incidental; it has been given us by God as a gift. We inhabit our God-created bodies as vessels of delight, temples of the Holy Spirit, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6:19. Our sexuality points to what theologians call “complementarity.” Men and women are one “kind” (1 Corinthians 15:39), but we are not the same. This is true in several respects. As Scripture indicates and common sense shows, men and women are different anatomically. Adam named his wife “woman” because she was distinct from him, a man (Genesis 2:23). Only a man can provide the raw material by which to procreate; only a woman can bear children and nurse them.

    Non-Christian scientists have recognized the bodily differences of the sexes. Anne and Bill Moir, for example, note that men have on average ten times more testosterone than women.2 Studies show that women use a vocabulary that is different enough from men’s to be “statistically significant.”3 We are distinct emotionally, too. The Scripture gives voice to this reality when it calls godly husbands to treat their wives as the “weaker vessel” and challenges fathers to not “provoke” their children (1 Peter 3:7; Colossians 3:19). These and other patterns constitute the markers of our manhood and womanhood. Our differences, as is clear, are considerable. They are also God given.

    We complement one another. This owes to God’s original design. He created Adam, but there was not a “helper” fit for him (Genesis 2:18). So the Lord in His kindness and wisdom made Eve. She instantly delighted Adam when brought to him. “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh!” he cried (Genesis 2:23). Her womanhood did not escape Adam; it captivated him.

    Satan has always tried to usurp the created order. He took the form of a serpent to entice the man and woman (Genesis 3:1–7). Adam was called to exercise dominion over animals, and yet an animal mastered him in the Fall. Adam was the head of his wife, but he relinquished his headship when he allowed Satan to tempt his wife, and when he let his wife lead him to eat the forbidden fruit. While she was duped about the consequences of her rebellion, she knowingly led her husband into this sin of disobedience. This is a portrait of her rejection of God. The Lord indicted Adam for his failure to lead Eve by asking him, “Where are you?” indicating that Adam had responsibility to spiritually protect his wife. He failed in this holy task, however, paving the way for Eve to disobey God. Adam’s failure led to Eve’s, and both of them were held guilty by the Lord.

    The just curse he pronounced on their humanity had spiritual and physical consequences. Both of them lost eternal life and brought the judgment of eternal death on the human race. Their bodies, given to them to glorify the Lord, would now bear the marks of fallenness in gender-specific ways. Adam’s work of provision was cursed, as the ground would now fight him as he worked it. Eve’s childbearing was cursed, as what was meant to be a beautiful process became a painful, even life-threatening, one.

    The sexes were also put in competition, and Eve, the Lord said, would now have a desire for her husband. This word is also used in Genesis 4:7, where God tells Cain that sin’s desire is for him, which means that evil is seeking to master and rule over him. So the woman will now seek to lead and dominate her husband. When we listen to Satan, pain and brokenness follow, and the gender roles laid out for us in Scripture are undermined and attacked.

    We see the profound tension between God’s design and Satan’s attacks on this design. The Lord created man and woman and gives them specific roles to play for His glory; Satan targets man and woman and induces them to upend God’s design. God orders and structures; Satan tears down. God brings life; Satan destroys it. These tragic patterns are as old as the earth. They are not new, but they do morph with the times.

    Western culture is making good on this rebellion. It denies the distinctness of divine creation; it tears down the uniqueness of the sexes; and it rebels against the lordship of Jesus Christ. The wisdom and design of God is rejected, and the Word of God, in sum, is reviled.

    How Does Our Culture Now Think of the Body?
    Over the last 50 years, American Christians have watched as our society has fashioned a brave new order for itself. Feminism and the sexual revolution have transformed the American home. Many men have lost any sense of responsibility for their family. They’re tuned out, passive, and self-focused. Many women feel great tension between their career and home. They are told by secular lifestyle magazines to pursue perfect “work-life” balance, but it’s hard to find. Increasingly, the sexes are in competition. These troubling developments represent phase one of the transformation of men and women.

    Phase two is the spread of the homosexual movement. Led by celebrities in the 1980s, the homosexual movement built off of the momentum of the feminist push and the sexual revolution. It sought to mainstream homosexual behavior. Men and women, it assumed, were not different in any meaningful way. The moral constraints of the biblical worldview had already been cast off. Romantic love was not subject to any shape or design. It was just a feeling. As such, it had no duties, no covenantal dimensions, and no enduring commitment. If it persisted, great. If the feeling of love died out, then the relationship died with it.

    In phase one, gender roles were recast. In phase two, romantic love was recast. In phase three, the body itself is recast. “Transgender” ideology is grounded in the idea that the body isn’t an essential part of our being (a viewpoint known as essentialism). Our “gender identity” is fluid, a social construct that can change. We may well be a man trapped in a woman’s body, for example; our identity does not necessarily match our body. In such instances, many “transgender” people opt for reconstructive surgery so their identity fits with their body (an essentialist view, ironically).

    This trend is building momentum today. The show Transparent has received prominent placement on Amazon Prime, with a lead character embracing a transgender identity. Minnesota high schools took action at the end of 2014 to allow transgender children to play on either boys’ or girls’ sports teams—whichever they choose. In Maine and California, students identifying as transgender can use whichever restroom they desire. Celebrities promote this viewpoint in their own homes, with leading film stars Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie publicly encouraging their daughter Shiloh to call herself “John” and dress up in boy’s clothes. The new way to approach the body is to see it as an art project, a means of self-expression, rather than as the creation of the divine mind and a means of God-glorification.

    It should be clear to Christians that this latest phase of our culture’s shift away from the Judeo-Christian worldview is a major one. We are witnessing the undoing of the most basic realities of God’s created order. In such a climate, what should we do? Let me suggest four responses on the part of Christians.

    What Christians Can Do Today: Four Suggestions
    First, we should recognize that we are witnessing moral anarchy, as Western nations abandon all semblance of biblical authority. There is nothing more essential to our lives than our manhood or womanhood. Our culture is embracing transgender identity and is thus uprooting the very structure of our bodily existence. To reject this reality is to embrace chaos. Untold numbers of boys and girls will be harmed by doing so. Most significantly, God is not honored or obeyed.

    The rates of suicide among transgender people show the brokenness this choice causes. Paul McHugh, former Johns Hopkins University psychiatrist in chief, has noted in the Wall Street Journal that the suicide rate among transgender individuals is 20 times higher than in the normal population.4 Embracing transgender identity at the cultural level does not produce happiness and wholeness. It goes hand in hand with personal confusion and disorder.

    Second, we should celebrate the beauty of God’s creative design. The Christian church and the godly family should be a festival of happiness. We should rejoice that God in His sovereign wisdom has opened our eyes to see that He has made us according to His perfect design. Manhood and womanhood aren’t Plan B. God Himself has made us as we are. We are the pinnacle of His creation.

    A VISCERAL RESPONSE TO SIN MUST NEVER QUIET OUR INSTINCT TO SHOW MERCY TO LOST PEOPLE.
    God’s creative work is undermined across the board today. Even in evangelical settings, it is increasingly acceptable to teach that humanity isn’t really that special. Adam and Eve weren’t literally the first man and woman, but merely selected from a group of hominids to represent humanity. The Bible speaks a “better word” than this (see Hebrews 12:24). A secularizing, darkening world seeks to demystify the human body. God and His Word dignify it, showing us that our bodies were made not only for utility, but for worship. Christians celebrate the beauty of the body, and of manhood and womanhood, for we see that we owe our form to divine design.5

    Third, we should recommit ourselves to training our children. The bodily differences between men and women are real. They speak to differences in our makeup, specifically designed by our Creator. In practical form, we must teach these differences to our children. They must see that being a boy or a girl is a matter of God’s glory. There should be no shame in boys liking boyish things or in girls adopting girlish behaviors. Christians should encourage this kind of awareness. Many parents will find that their children genuinely enjoy being a boy or a girl, a future man or a future woman. We should regularly remind our kids that it was God who made them as they are. We should encourage them to embrace and assume manhood or womanhood.

    When we do so, we’re imitating the pattern of wise biblical parents. “Be strong,” David said to his son Solomon, “and prove yourself a man” (1 Kings 2:2). Parents cannot guarantee the godliness of their children, of course. Solomon clearly chose to exhibit his manhood in sinful ways. But we can shepherd our children and exalt the goodness of manhood and womanhood.

    If we do not teach our kids about gender and sexuality, we can be assured that our unbiblical culture will. The culture-makers who disobey the Scripture are persuasive, forceful, and eager to indoctrinate our children. Fathers and mothers must recommit themselves to training their children in the scriptural worldview so that children do not embrace the cultural one.

    Fourth, we should reach out in compassion and call for repentance. We must reach out to those cursed by Adam’s Fall just as we were. We may feel a visceral response to sin and its effects, but this response must never quiet our instinct to show mercy to lost people. Transgender individuals will be increasingly common in our neighborhoods and communities. We have a choice: we can sinfully avoid them, or we can seek to reach out to them in kindness and conviction and evangelize them (see Matthew 9:10–13).

    Conversion for transgender individuals will not be neat and clean. It will be messy. It will involve the recognition that sin has corrupted us in every fiber of our being (Isaiah 64:6). But the gospel is stronger than sin. Christ’s death washes us clean, and Christ’s Resurrection gives us life. The Resurrection raised Christ’s spirit even as it renewed His body.

    Pastors should preach on the implications of the Resurrection for all people, including transgender ones. Coming to faith has profound implications for our bodies. For people who have embraced a transgender identity, repentance will mean embracing their God-given gender and rejecting whatever sinful identity they have chosen.6

    Conclusion
    The talking animals of Walt Disney films and pop culture have charmed many of us. But a Disneyfied concept of narcissistic self-determination has not done us any favors. The culture has offered us a false gospel, one that approves of all we do, leaving us to pursue anything we desire.

    The scriptural gospel is far better. It makes sense of our humanity. It restores our dignity. It calls us to be men and women who see our body as a gift, a vessel by which we may give glory to our Maker and Redeemer. This may sound too good to be true, but the church exists to make one thing clear: this is no fairy tale.

    It is the message of Scripture, and the hope of us all.



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  3. #2
    I disagree with pretty much this whole thing. Now there's a lot of text, and in building the case many true things are said, but overall I would say it's bad teaching. Satan does not orchestrate every evil thing or every curse, God does. That is one fundamental thing right there that is taught improperly, in general really, not just here. A lot of people are taught every good thing comes from God and every evil thing comes from the devil. Not so:

    Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
    I'm going to use being gay as the topic but it would equally apply if you substituted transgender, or bisexual, etc.

    So I know a lot of people quip, "well, if God didn't want gays why did he create me that way?", and the implication or assumption is that a Christian will say the devil corrupted you. But that is a lie. God is the one who did it. He creates thing He disapproves of. He afflicts in a myriad of ways. It's difficult to understand why, yes, but true nonetheless. I won't go into why God creates things he hates here as that's not my point at the moment. "Well, it's not an affliction! It's not a disease! It's who I am!" But that is the affliction isn't it? That you are perfectly fine being gay but the status quo is against it, and even God sets Himself against it.

    So what is the solution? Well, for the most part there isn't one. It's just like terminal cancer or anything else chronic. Or being paralyzed. That's another lie that is taught, that a being gay is a choice. It isn't a choice obviously. Children know they are gay from a very young age.

    The more "enlightened Christian" might say, "well, the LIFESTYLE is a choice". Well, of course it is. So is drinking, masturbating, and remarrying after divorce. A gay lifestyle is no more a sin than fornication. Not that fornication should be taken lightly, but in the case of gays it may be "less" of a sin simply due to the fact that a gay person is less conscious of it as fornication.

    Let me explain. Humans are born into a "sin state". We are all cursed from Adam's fall. But to "sin" as an action is an offense. It is to break the law. But an act of sin has to be "before God", which is to say you must know what you are doing is wrong. It isn't any external act or circumstance that defines or constitutes an act of sin, it is a subjective inward psychological recognition that you have done something wrong. We've all felt this. All things about you God takes into account. A murder might be the most horrible thing one person has done in God's eyes. A soldier who has killed 50 people, those killings may not be the worst thing, could be abusing his wife. A heroin addicts worst thing might not be destroying their body and neglecting their kid but maybe participating in a robbery of an old woman.

    So the point is we can never really know what the sin is that eats at a persons soul. They likely know better, though because of false religious teaching they may think that "God" as they have been falsely taught cares more about their sexual immorality than something else.

    Now, I've built all this up, because this next quote from the OP is the most wrong thing that is taught. It is talking about what repentance "means" for transgenders/gays/etc.

    Pastors should preach on the implications of the Resurrection for all people, including transgender ones. Coming to faith has profound implications for our bodies. For people who have embraced a transgender identity, repentance will mean embracing their God-given gender and rejecting whatever sinful identity they have chosen.
    That is horrible teaching. That is the same, in my mind, as saying that you got cancer because you are a bad person. God did not give you a standard sexual identity. He did not make you a healthy man. He made you gay. He made you incorrectly. You can't "embrace" what God didn't give you and you've never known.

    Repentance also isn't something you can just "do". It also comes by grace. You repent for the wrong you've done. I doubt many gay people see their sexual identity as wrong. In the case of gays it's likely the LAST thing they think they've done wrong. And even if they did how can you expect them to see it as any more wrong than what people feel for having sex out of wedlock or remarrying after divorce for that matter which Christ also called "fornication".

    Does repentance for a divorcee mean he must repent for divorcing or else it isn't repentance? Repentance means different things for everyone. God views people as individuals and takes everything into account. There isn't some special class of people that because they are born different sexually they necessarily have some "extra burden" of repentance related to that curse or abnormality. I would say it's quite the opposite.

    Anyway, I hope this helps clear some things up maybe if anyone might be reading this (not exactly fun material lol). There's a horrible amount of false teaching going around about "gays" especially considering that gay marriage is a hot topic right now, which I'm against, but that doesn't mean I think gays being in committed monogamous relationships is some great crime.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    I disagree with pretty much this whole thing. Now there's a lot of text, and in building the case many true things are said, but overall I would say it's bad teaching. Satan does not orchestrate every evil thing or every curse, God does. That is one fundamental thing right there that is taught improperly, in general really, not just here. A lot of people are taught every good thing comes from God and every evil thing comes from the devil. Not so:



    I'm going to use being gay as the topic but it would equally apply if you substituted transgender, or bisexual, etc.

    So I know a lot of people quip, "well, if God didn't want gays why did he create me that way?", and the implication or assumption is that a Christian will say the devil corrupted you. But that is a lie. God is the one who did it. He creates thing He disapproves of. He afflicts in a myriad of ways. It's difficult to understand why, yes, but true nonetheless. I won't go into why God creates things he hates here as that's not my point at the moment. "Well, it's not an affliction! It's not a disease! It's who I am!" But that is the affliction isn't it? That you are perfectly fine being gay but the status quo is against it, and even God sets Himself against it.

    So what is the solution? Well, for the most part there isn't one. It's just like terminal cancer or anything else chronic. Or being paralyzed. That's another lie that is taught, that a being gay is a choice. It isn't a choice obviously. Children know they are gay from a very young age.

    The more "enlightened Christian" might say, "well, the LIFESTYLE is a choice". Well, of course it is. So is drinking, masturbating, and remarrying after divorce. A gay lifestyle is no more a sin than fornication. Not that fornication should be taken lightly, but in the case of gays it may be "less" of a sin simply due to the fact that a gay person is less conscious of it as fornication.

    Let me explain. Humans are born into a "sin state". We are all cursed from Adam's fall. But to "sin" as an action is an offense. It is to break the law. But an act of sin has to be "before God", which is to say you must know what you are doing is wrong. It isn't any external act or circumstance that defines or constitutes an act of sin, it is a subjective inward psychological recognition that you have done something wrong. We've all felt this. All things about you God takes into account. A murder might be the most horrible thing one person has done in God's eyes. A soldier who has killed 50 people, those killings may not be the worst thing, could be abusing his wife. A heroin addicts worst thing might not be destroying their body and neglecting their kid but maybe participating in a robbery of an old woman.

    So the point is we can never really know what the sin is that eats at a persons soul. They likely know better, though because of false religious teaching they may think that "God" as they have been falsely taught cares more about their sexual immorality than something else.

    Now, I've built all this up, because this next quote from the OP is the most wrong thing that is taught. It is talking about what repentance "means" for transgenders/gays/etc.



    That is horrible teaching. That is the same, in my mind, as saying that you got cancer because you are a bad person. God did not give you a standard sexual identity. He did not make you a healthy man. He made you gay. He made you incorrectly. You can't "embrace" what God didn't give you and you've never known.

    Repentance also isn't something you can just "do". It also comes by grace. You repent for the wrong you've done. I doubt many gay people see their sexual identity as wrong. In the case of gays it's likely the LAST thing they think they've done wrong. And even if they did how can you expect them to see it as any more wrong than what people feel for having sex out of wedlock or remarrying after divorce for that matter which Christ also called "fornication".

    Does repentance for a divorcee mean he must repent for divorcing or else it isn't repentance? Repentance means different things for everyone. God views people as individuals and takes everything into account. There isn't some special class of people that because they are born different sexually they necessarily have some "extra burden" of repentance related to that curse or abnormality. I would say it's quite the opposite.

    Anyway, I hope this helps clear some things up maybe if anyone might be reading this (not exactly fun material lol). There's a horrible amount of false teaching going around about "gays" especially considering that gay marriage is a hot topic right now, which I'm against, but that doesn't mean I think gays being in committed monogamous relationships is some great crime.
    When God created people to be evil, the mere fact that He created them to be evil doesn't absolve them of their judgement. The vessels of wrath will be judged and the vessels of mercy will be saved. This is Romans 9.

  5. #4
    Heh. Didn't people used to think being Left Handed was a Sin? If someone is Left Handed or Right Handed, I don't think they have a real choice in deciding that. The same thing probably applies to some of the complicated aspects of gender identity and sexuality in terms of choice.

    I don't get why this is considered evil or why these people are apparently expected to go to Hell or something, but whatever.

  6. #5
    In response to the neg reps I've recieved from non-Christians, I'll say this:

    Romans 1 explains that God gave evil people over to their homosexual lusts, and Romans 9 further explains that God creates vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy.

    All of you will bow the knee to Jesus as Lord someday, either in glory or in judgement.

  7. #6
    The world is a Fallen place. It is not as God made it, but it is what it needs to be for now, a place of trial, error, imperfection, righteousness, and sin. We are born into a natural world ruled by natural laws. Sometimes those laws screw up, mutations happen. The fact that people are born with the sexual traits of both genders is evidence of this fact. Gender is an eternal pre-mortal, mortal, and post-mortal reality of the spirit. But the body is not always obedient to the spirit, the natural man almost never is so. I leave the moral judgment to God. I think people who think of themselves as transgender need serious psychological and spiritual help and guidance, but only God ultimately know what is really going on inside them. He is the only one that can determine what is going on in the brain of the person. I am just thankful for the Resurrection, which shall heal such flaws of the mortal body and mind.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by VIDEODROME View Post
    Heh. Didn't people used to think being Left Handed was a Sin? If someone is Left Handed or Right Handed, I don't think they have a real choice in deciding that. The same thing probably applies to some of the complicated aspects of gender identity and sexuality in terms of choice.

    I don't get why this is considered evil or why these people are apparently expected to go to Hell or something, but whatever.
    Where in the Bible is being "left-handed" a sin?

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    The world is a Fallen place. It is not as God made it, but it is what it needs to be for now, a place of trial, error, imperfection, righteousness, and sin. We are born into a natural world ruled by natural laws. Sometimes those laws screw up, mutations happen. The fact that people are born with the sexual traits of both genders is evidence of this fact. Gender is an eternal pre-mortal, mortal, and post-mortal reality of the spirit. But the body is not always obedient to the spirit, the natural man almost never is so. I leave the moral judgment to God. I think people who think of themselves as transgender need serious psychological and spiritual help and guidance, but only God ultimately know what is really going on inside them. He is the only one that can determine what is going on in the brain of the person. I am just thankful for the Resurrection, which shall heal such flaws of the mortal body and mind.
    None of this is Biblical.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    When God created people to be evil, the mere fact that He created them to be evil doesn't absolve them of their judgement. The vessels of wrath will be judged and the vessels of mercy will be saved. This is Romans 9.
    You are wrong, Sola. And you are not alone. I got neg repped for that response.

    That's why I wanted to put my two cents in. Because I know many Christians seem to think that gay people are worse in some way than everyone else. Do you go around telling all the divorced people you know that they are in danger of hell? Because they are just the same are they not? Do you say a divorcee is a vessel of wrath? Do you say someone with cancer is a vessel of wrath?

    WHICH, for the 1000th time, was said by PAUL and is prefixed with "WHAT IF GOD.." Not only is Paul your hero and my suspect for being a liar, but EVEN YOUR BLESSED PAUL said "what if". It means he doesn't freaking know!

    God calls sodomy an abomination. He also calls pride an abomination. Is everyone who feels pride a vessel of wrath doomed to eternal damnation?

    No one knows God's standard for repentance for an individual except God. And to go on about people being vessels of wrath and saying they are damned is to take it a step further and claim you not only know the standard of repentance but you know the standard of eternal damnation as well. This is what pisses me off most about Westboro Baptist Church. Using God's name in vein to declare who is in hell and who is not.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    You are wrong, Sola. And you are not alone. I got neg repped for that response.

    That's why I wanted to put my two cents in. Because I know many Christians seem to think that gay people are worse in some way than everyone else. Do you go around telling all the divorced people you know that they are in danger of hell? Because they are just the same are they not? Do you say a divorcee is a vessel of wrath? Do you say someone with cancer is a vessel of wrath?

    WHICH, for the 1000th time, was said by PAUL and is prefixed with "WHAT IF GOD.." Not only is Paul your hero and my suspect for being a liar, but EVEN YOUR BLESSED PAUL said "what if". It means he doesn't freaking know!

    God calls sodomy an abomination. He also calls pride an abomination. Is everyone who feels pride a vessel of wrath doomed to eternal damnation?

    No one knows God's standard for repentance for an individual except God. And to go on about people being vessels of wrath and saying they are damned is to take it a step further and claim you not only know the standard of repentance but you know the standard of eternal damnation as well. This is what pisses me off most about Westboro Baptist Church. Using God's name in vein to declare who is in hell and who is not.
    Actually read Romans 9:22. Paul says "what if", and then quotes Old Testament verses to back up his assertion.

    Read Romans 9:22 and onwards to the rest of the chapter. All the questions will be answered for you.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    The world is a Fallen place. It is not as God made it, but it is what it needs to be for now, a place of trial, error, imperfection, righteousness, and sin. We are born into a natural world ruled by natural laws. Sometimes those laws screw up, mutations happen. The fact that people are born with the sexual traits of both genders is evidence of this fact. Gender is an eternal pre-mortal, mortal, and post-mortal reality of the spirit. But the body is not always obedient to the spirit, the natural man almost never is so. I leave the moral judgment to God. I think people who think of themselves as transgender need serious psychological and spiritual help and guidance, but only God ultimately know what is really going on inside them. He is the only one that can determine what is going on in the brain of the person. I am just thankful for the Resurrection, which shall heal such flaws of the mortal body and mind.
    I'm not going to return your neg rep, because I just don't neg rep people, but by the standard and comment you did I would certainly be justified.

    This world is exactly how God made it. The laws don't "screw up". It is all by design.

    God made cancer, he made child molesters, he made earthquakes. Everything is by design, even choice. But any choice we make, the results are also following God's very precise laws and the choices are within a limited set which he has created.

    Luke 12:6-7 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
    People always make "matrix" analogies with respect to our "evil government", but the real Matrix is God's matrix. He is the Architect.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Actually read Romans 9:22. Paul says "what if", and then quotes Old Testament verses to back up his assertion.

    Read Romans 9:22 and onwards to the rest of the chapter. All the questions will be answered for you.
    What questions do I have exactly? My main question only you can answer.

    And that is, why do you think you have some divining rod as to who these vessels of wrath are? Clearly since you brought it up in this thread you think gays are vessels of wrath I guess? Where did Paul say that gays are damned?

    If you are going to reply that if they don't repent they are, then why bring it up at all SINCE EVERYONE CAN POTENTIALLY REPENT. If you say no, most people won't, then again how would you know who they are?

    You preach the gospel specifically to sinners do you not? So what is the point of even talking about vessels of wrath? All I ever hear from you on this point is "to show the awesome power of God" or something to that affect "because he is sovereign, predestination shows his level of control".

    Great, great, great. But what about Christ's command to preach the gospel? Is there something about predestination and the damned that makes preaching the gospel futile?

    Preach the gospel of my Son, saith the Lord
    But if you "really get it" you'll realize that it isn't really necessary.

    Seriously, Sola. This thing you believe, I haven't grasped it, I don't know why you keep bringing it up, I don't understand why you think it's useful in preaching the gospel. Only Paul talked about it. Jesus only said that God is the God of the living, which to me says:

    WHY THE $#@! DO WE EVEN CARE TO TALK ABOUT THE DAMNED?

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Where in the Bible is being "left-handed" a sin?
    I don't think it's explicitly in the Bible, it's one of those interpretation things that people read into. I've heard that the Occult can even be referred to as The Left Hand Path.

    The left hand does worst in the parable of the sheep and goats. The sheep are set on Christ’s right hand and the goats on the left. Those on the right inherit the kingdom of god while those on the left depart into everlasting fire (to quote Matthew 25: verse 41: Then he will say unto those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”) -

    http://www.anythinglefthanded.co.uk/....PEAgj4Oi.dpbs

    Some people might take this as implying that the right side is favorable while the left by default is not.

    Even in silly cartoons of Angels and Devils whispering into a person's ear, the Demon is usually on the Left Shoulder.



    Last edited by VIDEODROME; 04-30-2015 at 11:33 PM.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    When God created people to be evil, the mere fact that He created them to be evil doesn't absolve them of their judgement. The vessels of wrath will be judged and the vessels of mercy will be saved.
    Hmm, God created them to be evil but that doesn't absolve them of their judgment. I had a really strange idea just now that people should probably be absolved of judgment for, you know, things that aren't their fault. I thought for a second that it might even be immoral to carry out such a judgment. Nevermind, not really sure what I was thinking.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    Hmm, God created them to be evil but that doesn't absolve them of their judgment. I had a really strange idea just now that people should probably be absolved of judgment for, you know, things that aren't their fault. I thought for a second that it might even be immoral to carry out such a judgment. Nevermind, not really sure what I was thinking.
    Right, your thinking is worldly.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Right, your thinking is worldly.
    Oh, that's right. Heavenly thinking though is different. The heavenly father thinks its totally okay to create some of his children in order to kick them to the curb while taking other children and raising them to success. Can't expect God to just keep all that wrath and mercy bottled up inside, he needs to create some of his own-image children vessel containers to show it off to himself.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    Oh, that's right. Heavenly thinking though is different. The heavenly father thinks its totally okay to create some of his children in order to kick them to the curb while taking other children and raising them to success. Can't expect God to just keep all that wrath and mercy bottled up inside, he needs to create some of his own-image children vessel containers to show it off to himself.
    "His children"? That's another non-Biblical notion. Not everyone is.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    "His children"? That's another non-Biblical notion. Not everyone is.
    My bad. I will rephrase. The heavenly thinking is that it is totally okay to create a bunch of orphans in order to feed most of them to the lions and to adopt others as his own.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    My bad. I will rephrase. The heavenly thinking is that it is totally okay to create a bunch of orphans in order to feed most of them to the lions and to adopt others as his own.
    You don't like the God of the universe, we get that. But what does any of that mean in the grand scheme of things?

  23. #20
    We haven't experienced the full assault of the Trans agenda yet. And I fear that it's going to be even worse than the homosexual agenda.
    Stop believing stupid things

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    Hmm, God created them to be evil but that doesn't absolve them of their judgment. I had a really strange idea just now that people should probably be absolved of judgment for, you know, things that aren't their fault. I thought for a second that it might even be immoral to carry out such a judgment. Nevermind, not really sure what I was thinking.
    God does this for a specific purpose: to show us what righteousness is by contrasting it with evil. Could He have done it another way? Sure, but He did it this way. God has temporarily made the world a fallen place, but He has also promised that all will be restored, and then some. The judgment, in other words, will be worth it.

    Where S_F and I disagree is that he believes some will recognize God but will never be restored to righteousness. I believe this is completely wrong and would violate God's promise, but God can't break His promises, so I reject that teaching.
    Last edited by PaulConventionWV; 05-01-2015 at 08:10 AM.
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  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    You don't like the God of the universe, we get that. But what does any of that mean in the grand scheme of things?
    It means that if your God exists, then he is not moral in any meaningful sense of the word. Yes, my thinking is "worldly", but your thinking is so out of this world that it is moral for God to create living people for the purpose of them serving as his vessels of wrath ie. his punching bags or throwing objects, in order that he can make the special ones feel even more appreciative of the fact that he doesn't punch or throw them. Maybe that really is the kind of God we have, but if that is true then I can't call him moral, because God did such a good job instilling in me this feeling that it is objectively wrong to judge people for things *you* created them to do in the first place. (and please, don't call me out on using the term "objective", as I am using it facetiously)
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV View Post
    God does this for a specific purpose: to show us what righteousness is by contrasting it with evil. Could He have done it another way? Sure, but He did it this way. God has temporarily made the world a fallen place, but He has also promised that all will be restored, and then some. The judgment, in other words, will be worth it.

    Where S_F and I disagree is that he believes some will recognize God but will never be restored to righteousness. I believe this is completely wrong and would violate God's promise, but God can't break His promises, so I reject that teaching.
    It sounds like an abusive relationship. I imagine a man beating his wife in order to teach her to love him even more whenever he doesn't beat her. And then asking her to love him and stay with him because he promises that eventually some day he will never beat her anymore.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  27. #24
    God didn't create people to be evil.

    I don't have time at the moment to get into any debates, but I just wanted to say that. To the non-Christians here, PLEASE don't believe that when a professed Christian - of any denomination or church - says something, that automatically is the truth or represents Christianity. Please just keep that in mind. Thanks.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Tywysog Cymru View Post
    We haven't experienced the full assault of the Trans agenda yet. And I fear that it's going to be even worse than the homosexual agenda.
    I think you're right. And after that it will be something else. It's getting progressively worse.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  30. #26
    Why did the second post on this thread bring up the issue of homosexuality when the issue I posted about in this thread is transgender identity? I can understand how people can argue that homosexuals were born that way, even though I don't agree with it. But if someone who was born a man has a sex change operation and becomes a woman, how can anyone possibly argue that that person was born a woman? If you were born with male body parts, you're a man. If you were born with female body parts, you're a woman. That's the issue dealt with in the article, not homosexuality.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Brett85 View Post
    if someone who was born a man has a sex change operation and becomes a woman, how can anyone possibly argue that that person was born a woman? If you were born with male body parts, you're a man. If you were born with female body parts, you're a woman. That's the issue dealt with in the article, not homosexuality.
    This could be an example of a person caught in the middle. This genetic condition might not be expressed the same way in everyone who has it, but there would be a strong potential for it to cause a male to have feminine influence in how their body develops. This isn't to say all of them should seek or want sexual re-assignment surgery, but some might desire it.

    http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/conte...l/klinefelter/

    XXY (Klinefelter syndrome)

    47, XXY (or XXY) is a genetic condition caused when someone has two X chromosomes and one Y chromosome. Males normally have an X chromosome and a Y chromosome (46, XY), and females normally have two X chromosomes (46, XX).

    Because people with an XXY chromosome arrangement have a Y chromosome, they are considered genetic males. Most XXY individuals develop as males, often not knowing they have an extra chromosome. Some will develop the varied and often subtle characteristics associated with Klinefelter syndrome. And a small proportion will develop as intersex (between male and female) or female. Physical characteristics may appear around the time of puberty, when gender identity and sexual characteristics begin to take shape.

    Knowing an individual's chromosomal status is important for both their physical and emotional health. Early diagnosis can alert doctors to the need for bone-density and hormone-level monitoring. Educators can be on the lookout for learning disabilities. XXY individuals also may need emotional support and counseling, especially during puberty. Boys who develop breast tissue or who do not develop facial or body hair may feel self-conscious. Teens may need support as they face gender identity issues.


    XXY is one of the most common genetic conditions, affecting about 1 in 660 genetic males.

  32. #28
    It seems like the solution to a boy who develops breast tissue or does not develop facial or body hair isn't for that boy to get a sex change and become a woman, but for the boy to be given a testosterone supplement to help with those problems. There are ways to help a boy who is experiencing gender identity issues that doesn't involve changing their body parts.

  33. #29
    Is it not also God's design, that some people would be transgender?
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  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Brett85 View Post
    Why did the second post on this thread bring up the issue of homosexuality when the issue I posted about in this thread is transgender identity? I can understand how people can argue that homosexuals were born that way, even though I don't agree with it. But if someone who was born a man has a sex change operation and becomes a woman, how can anyone possibly argue that that person was born a woman? If you were born with male body parts, you're a man. If you were born with female body parts, you're a woman. That's the issue dealt with in the article, not homosexuality.
    That's what I originally believed. But if you heard the Bruce Jenner interview you would learn that sex and gender are two completely different things. Sexuality is who you are attracted to...what turns you on. Gender identity has to do with who you are as a person... who you identity with as a person inside. So while Bruce Jenner was born with male body parts and is attracted to woman, he knew at a very early age that he identified with being female. I know, it's confusing and screwy. But think of the poor person who has to go through it!!

    While I personally believe there are some people who choose to live an alternative sexual lifestyle , the majority of people who are gay or transgendered were BORN that way. No one chooses the hell they've gone through in order to fit into what society deems is "normal." This article was written out of complete ignorance.

    GOD is love. GOD created Gays. GOD created the Transgendered. People need to get used to it. They are human beings and GOD dwells within them as much as GOD dwells within each one of us.

    I have evolved in my thinking over the years having been raised a Catholic. I am a Christian and straight. I am also recovering from years of man made dogma that really screwed with my head.. Once I let go of the need for other people to conform to my beliefs and standards of what I used to think was "normal" I was free. And I've never felt more closer to GOD. While I respect everybody's right to their beliefs, I do have a problem when it starts becoming judgemental and self righteous. THAT's what I believe is truly sinful.




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