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Thread: Debunking Crapitalism

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    How so?
    Wiz: So what are we doing about liberty, liberty movement?

    Liberty movement: Ron Paul 2008!!! Ron Paul 2012!!! Rand Paul 2016!!!

    Wiz: Hmmm. Electoral politics is certainly a part of the strategy but given how bad things are shouldn't we develop more comprehensive strategies and work on actually organizing supporters beyond GOTV efforts?

    Liberty movement: You can't herd cats. Besides, I don't really care, I have plenty of ammo and food.

    More clear, osan?
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6



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  3. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    Wiz: So what are we doing about liberty, liberty movement?

    Liberty movement: Ron Paul 2008!!! Ron Paul 2012!!! Rand Paul 2016!!!

    Wiz: Hmmm. Electoral politics is certainly a part of the strategy but given how bad things are shouldn't we develop more comprehensive strategies and work on actually organizing supporters beyond GOTV efforts?

    Liberty movement: You can't herd cats. Besides, I don't really care, I have plenty of ammo and food.

    More clear, osan?
    Purely fallacious. The having guns/ammo/food deal is not posited as a long-term strategy for living, but rather as a short-term plan for surviving the dangers that are likely to strike at us. Take your pick at the possibilities - Chinese aggression, Russia running amok, our government going simple on its own, Islamic loons, EMP attack, economic collapse by one of a fair number of possible avenues... the list is healthy and varied. There is nothing short-sighted about having a strategy for surviving these brands of possible future events. Perhaps you have seen posts that explicitly say such things, but in five years here I have never seen this once expressed.

    It is pretty clear that normal channels will not be forthcoming with the desired results, whether because the nation is too far gone down the road to tyranny or the American people are too far gone mentally. Either way the result is the same: continuing the merry skipping down the lane to perdition as we brunch at our favorite chain outlet at the mall.

    We recently had our chains yanked with the apparent nonsense about establishing and empowering proper grand juries by which means is it asserted we may hold accountable those who are doing us in. I have yet to see anything substantive in the way of a demonstration that this notion is anything better than wishful thinking. I would change my mind 180* if so much as one of the 3000 counties in the USA were to successfully establish and operate such an instrument. I will not be holding my breath in wait.

    What does that leave? A simple choice: kill Themme with extreme prejudice or capitulate because Theye will not be negotiating for partial settlements.

    You have conflated two things that are not the same. You have apprehended a subset of a rational world view and posited it as the full monty of some vaguely referred population. That's a non-starter and a major error in reasoning.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  4. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowball View Post
    We're going to see how much you love it when the Chinese are making $15/hr and their new currency is
    worth more than the Fed Note in your pocket. Wal Mart is the TEMPORARY beneficiary of sellout politicians
    who sold this country down the drain in the 1990s and shut down millions of small company retailers.
    It's not about "hating anyone who has wealth", it's about recognizing the fact that the policies which
    created that wealth were detrimental to freedom.
    Right, the gov't needs dependents to stay in power, mom and pop were not dependent enough, but their kids sure are now.
    After 7 days of rioting they will get on the cattle cars just to get a sandwich.

    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    I love the Chinese.
    Besides, inflation is good for me, I have negative net worth.
    Then you should jump on my bandwagon, debts would be quashed in the transition.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Originally Posted by FreeBornAngel
    Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0
    Everyone. Greater division of labor --> more production --> lower prices --> higher standard of living.
    Right, and how much higher would that standard be if taxes and profits were not taken at each exchange?
    Taxes? Higher by some amount.
    Profits? Virtually non-existent, since without profits there is (a) no incentive, and (b) no possibility of economic calculation (again, see socialist calculation problem).
    What do you figure the standard of living would be if we weren't constrained by the limits of crapitalism, ie, profits vs r&d, profits vs wages, profits vs everybody's standard of living?
    If nasa was restrained only by the worker's ability to deliver the goods do you figure we would be on the moon now?
    If research scientists were restrained only by their own limitations and the limits of the worker's ability to make the materials available to them do you figure we would have robotic personal assistants?
    Do you figure if the robot makers weren't restrained by the ruling class's need to keep the people occupied, and out of the libraries and streets, most labor would be done by robots?
    Does McD's really need people, or could their pseudo-food be made robotically?
    You try to use crapitalist rhetoric to confine me, but I am outside the slave cage, perhaps you should ponder the possibilities as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FBA
    Quote Originally Posted by r3
    Second, to the issue at hand; workers are paid the the discounted marginal revenue product of their labor.
    Blah, blah, whaaa??
    Before one repudiates free market capitalism and attempts to develop an alternative social order, it might be prudent for one to have some slight grasp of economics.
    I understand economics just fine, thanks.
    It's you that defends an economic system that perpetuates a two class system, those in poverty that work for those that live in opulence, with varying degrees in between, with the rhetoric developed to keep the sheeple in awe of complex, convoluted theories and producing.
    Seriously, can crapitalism stop human trafficking and poverty?
    No, because it created them in the first place.
    My proposal does both in it's first week of adoption.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Originally Posted by FreeBornAngel
    If crapitalism was going to raise the average worker out of poverty why hasn't it?
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    See: the history of the world in the last 200 years.
    Are you unaware that the standard of living for the average person has increased by orders of magnitude since, say, 1800?
    To wit: you are currently sitting in front of a computer in an air-conditioned room, rather than dying of smallpox in a hovel.
    Those dying in hovels were a minority in those days, the majority lived lives independent from the ruling class on farms where they grew their own food until 1920.
    I'm not saying that life hasn't improved, the anarchists, and others, of the labor movement sacrificed their lives on the crapitalists' machine guns to get the 8 hour day, retirement benefits, health insurance, et al, do you think the crapitalist would have given any of that to the worker if the worker hadn't risen up? Why do you think we have been allowed to have air conditioning and computers? I figure it served the purposes of the crapitalists by making life comfortable enough to keep the wage slaves out of the streets.
    But again, what would our standard of living look like if the greed of crapitalists hadn't concentrated half the wealth in their own hands?
    What would you do with double the amount of wealth? Would you use it to raise your standard of living?
    You really can't compare my system to crapitalism unless you can get your head outside the limits that crapitalism presents.
    If you could go to the store and get whatever you wanted how long would it take to have everything?
    How many flat screens do you need?
    At what point is your conspicuous consumption satisfied?
    Would you really need 32 pairs of shoes?
    Seriously, in an environment that respects the labor of the worker as the current paradigm respects ties, short hair, and a neat yard, the supply of most things will satisfy demand in short order.

    Personally, I'm rooting for the capitalist pigs.
    Of course you are, your mind control programming was designed to keep you from doing anything else, so kick back, turn down the a/c, flip the channel to golf, and try to ignore the reality around you.



    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    Originally Posted by FreeBornAngel
    Are you sure that is the argument you are looking to assert?
    It's not an argument, it's an assessment. And an accurate one, plebe. Do try to remember to address your betters with more respect.
    Well, just as soon as you back up your claims I will sure give you your due.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FBA
    Then why do you support a system that leaves wage slavery, and the ruling class paying the wages to the slaves, in place?
    Division of labor and hierarchical firms are more efficient than the alternatives. There will always be a person or group of people who lead the firms and people who follow orders. Hierarchy exists for a reason, and attempts to abolish it will simply see it reorganized. Hierarchy is either overt or covert, but it's always there.
    I agree, somebody has to direct the direction of the group.
    In a productive setting somebody will keep the production on track while others actually produce.
    This will be determined by consensus.
    However, that won't be a top down dictatorship as most hierarchies currently are.
    Anyone not happy with the arrangements can seek work elsewhere and not have any bills to meet in the mean time.
    Under crapitalism(and heathianism) if you are not happy with your job you live under a bridge and starve until you find another, hardly a free choice.

    Except I'm not a voluntarist, I'm a Heathian and a reactionary.
    So, if Wikipedia is to be believed you want a central dictator to keep things rolling smoothly as the wealth migrates from the plebes to the ruling class?
    Seriously?
    You don't see any problem with centralized dictators keeping non-rent payers from having a house?
    Please stop calling yourself an anarchist,....you are giving us a bad name.
    As for reactionary politics as defined by Wikipedia, good luck with that, I, and presumably anyone else that can't define heathianism, won't be submitting to your tyranny anytime soon.

    You're not some more evolved version of a libertarian, you're just a utopian dimwit.
    Well, perhaps, but at least I recognize the danger that is coercive control over others.

    My proposal delivers on it's promise of utopia, whereas your heathianism is just the status quo on steroids.


    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Originally Posted by wizardwatson Besides, inflation is good for me, I have negative net worth.
    That is a very short-sighted assessment.
    Cynical and economically accurate,....

    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    So is "I don't care I have guns, ammo, and plenty of food" which is the mantra of half of the forum members.
    All of which can be short circuited by simply going to work like normal and refusing to pay at the pump/register.
    Look at all that cashiers that will be out of work, they can find something productive to do to help meet the added demand that freedom from economic slavery will bring.

    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBornAngel View Post
    Ok, but why should we leave wage slavery in place?
    Who said anything about supporting wage slavery?
    Going to a job to produce items of value for others is not perforce wage slavery.
    Any system that leaves wages in place is slavery because I have no choice but to submit to the exploitation of the employer to obtain supper.

    You need to learn to separate the pure theories from the inept or dishonest practice
    And you need to recognize that hunger forces me to submit unless I can get lunch for free.
    If I have to find an employer to exploit my labor, by paying me less than it's full value, in order to have a roof over my head I am a slave to the system.

    I have no idea what you mean by "crapitalism" - is this supposed to be some clever snark against "capitalism"? It seems so, but I will not assume it. If it is, how do you propose to have an adult discussion, or is that not your intention?
    Oh, excuse me, I didn't mean to insult your religious beliefs,....
    Crapitalism is just that, crap.
    That you have been blinded to that by the flashy light box and education as defined by the gov't approved schools is not my doing.
    We can have an enlightened conversation, but I will be doing my best to slay your sacred cows, you may not be prepared to endure that.
    It wasn't easy for me to accept that everything I had been taught by people I respected was false.
    I presume it will be difficult for you as well.

    Sure. I can build furniture, but most of that which is in my home has been made by others. I can and have build tools and machinery, but most that I have is factory made.
    Of course, the division of labor makes life easier for us all.
    No need to learn how to make paper or beer.
    My proposal takes that into consideration.
    The only thing we stop making is billionaires, most other work continues.

    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    Wiz: So what are we doing about liberty, liberty movement?
    Liberty movement: Ron Paul 2008!!! Ron Paul 2012!!! Rand Paul 2016!!!
    Wiz: Hmmm. Electoral politics is certainly a part of the strategy but given how bad things are shouldn't we develop more comprehensive strategies and work on actually organizing supporters beyond GOTV efforts?
    Liberty movement: You can't herd cats. Besides, I don't really care, I have plenty of ammo and food.
    More clear, osan?
    If voting changed anything it would be illegal. Emma Goldman Mark Twain


    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    We recently had our chains yanked with the apparent nonsense about establishing and empowering proper grand juries by which means is it asserted we may hold accountable those who are doing us in.
    The solution to what is ailing us will not be in exchanging this master for that master.
    It will take a paradigm shift and my proposal does exactly that.
    We continue to work just like today except we just don't pay at the pump.
    We will also have to stop accepting that those most willing to use violence are the best suited to rule.
    A true shift in the paradigm.
    The end of violent domination of the people and their economics.

  5. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBornAngel View Post
    I understand economics just fine, thanks.
    I've seen no evidence of that.

    Not only do you not understand free market economics, it seems you don't even understand socialism.

    All of the socialist visions are fatally flawed, but yours is - in addition - barely intelligible.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBornAngel
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBornAngel
    If crapitalism was going to raise the average worker out of poverty why hasn't it?
    Are you unaware that the standard of living for the average person has increased by orders of magnitude since, say, 1800? To wit: you are currently sitting in front of a computer in an air-conditioned room, rather than dying of smallpox in a hovel.
    I'm not saying that life hasn't improved
    Yes, it has improved by orders of magnitude, by whatever metric you want to use: income, life expectancy, infant mortality, etc.

    the anarchists, and others, of the labor movement sacrificed their lives on the crapitalists' machine guns to get the 8 hour day, retirement benefits, health insurance, et al, do you think the crapitalist would have given any of that to the worker if the worker hadn't risen up?


    Complete nonsense.

    E.G. The average real wage of unskilled labor increased ~700% in the 19th century alone, long before any meaningful union activity or social welfare programs.

    Why do you think we have been allowed to have air conditioning and computers? I figure it served the purposes of the crapitalists by making life comfortable enough to keep the wage slaves out of the streets.
    Ah yes, the massive increase in living standards of the last two centuries - dwarfing the combined accomplishments of the preceding 10,000 years - was just a trick!

    You really can't compare my system to crapitalism unless you can get your head outside the limits that crapitalism presents.
    If you could go to the store and get whatever you wanted how long would it take to have everything?
    Free everything in unlimited supply!? Just by eliminating prices and making rational economic calculation impossible!? How can I lose!?

    Seriously, in an environment that respects the labor of the worker as the current paradigm respects ties, short hair, and a neat yard, the supply of most things will satisfy demand in short order.
    Of course, comrade, of course, and the seas will turn to lemonade and lions shall lay with lambs.

    Communism is a mental disorder. Seek help.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 05-16-2015 at 05:08 PM.

  6. #95
    This nonsense is basically just Oskar Lange - warmed-over, watered-down and grossly oversimplified.
    It's just "market socialism" - only without prices (and even Lange wasn't foolish enough to go that far).

    Ludwig von Mises dealt with all this a long time ago: https://mises.org/library/end-social...bate-revisited

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    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      -- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      -- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

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  7. #96



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  9. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBornAngel View Post
    Originally Posted by osanYou just demonstrated an utter absence of any understanding of financial accounting.



    Did I?
    That is a non-answer. So noted.


    I strongly suggest you take a basic accounting class, that you may learn just how wholly mistaken you are on this point.
    Why? So I too can parrot back the mindless blather of crapitalist economics?
    No thanks, I would rather find alternatives to my (wage) slavery.
    This presupposes facts not in evidence. As to your reference to "wage slavery" and the implications given there by context, you are incorrectly drawing cause-effect relationships. I fully agree that wage-slavery exists in places, but that is not the result of the existence of the demonstrably effective principles of financial accounting. The issues are quite separate. Just as I may employ a hammer either to help you build an addition to your home or stove in your skull, accounting as a tool may be used to help guide the decision making process of a free business or a wage-slavery operation.

    I would also advise some serious caution in your use of "wage slavery" because it speaks nothing of nature and cause. What is "wage slavery", whence does it arise, who engages in its administration, and so forth. These are points that are well to have in hand any time such a term is to be made use.


    But don't take it from me - after all, I just have a graduate degree in all this.
    That you can sit through the mind numbing hours of economics class while being able to retain what has been mindlessly parroted to you by a professor more interested in banging the blond beside you than finding an escape from is slavery is telling.
    I can have a doctorate in economics and still not understand that wage labor is wage slavery to a ruling class, in fact, the whole time spent in obtaining my doctorate was indoctrination to not do exactly that.
    And here all you succeed in accomplishing is the assassination of your own credibility. I've been in business 35 years in a wide spectrum of endeavors in terms of clients, environments, and so forth. I have an appreciably broad experience base, have lived in 12 states from sea to shining sea, earned seven degrees, and all of this tells me that you are very mistaken in your opinions. I fully agree that there is much that is very wrong about the current scheme of things, but do not agree as to the ultimate causes. You make up a childish term, "CRAPitalism", as if that in itself served in itself to demonstrate your point, and go on with your fallacious conflations, evasions, and failed reasoning. That is your right, but some of us here know better because we have lived the things against which you speak and know that you are deeply mistaken on many points. Try reining your emotions in a bit - I'm serious - and start by either using "capitalism", or at least defining with precision and completeness what you mean when you refer to "crapiltalism". If you are simply attempting to vent your invective, you fail for any of the valid and truthful reasons already given here in response to your OP.


    At the moment, you have no correct understanding of its broader and truer role in the decision-making process.


    Here, let me give you a short course in understanding your enslavement.
    Here, and here.
    Take a few minutes to understand that you will always be at the mercy of those that can afford to employ you, you are not free.
    Yeah, I am well aware of my status and my state of being. I would slice and dice your presumptuous nonsense every which way, but I suspect that will prove a waste of my time.

    I am self-employed and have been for a long time. What you attempt by implication is pure FAIL.






    Do you know the role of concepts such as "return on assets", "return on capital", and "return on investment"?


    Indeed I do, I have quite the education in them, thanks.
    Well then why not state your qualifications. I am an MBA with about 35 years in business as both employee and CEO, as well as chief cook and bottle washer. I cut my professional teeth on Wall Street and have worked all over these United States. I've managed billion-dollar projects, back when that was still a lot of money. I've managed projects in the private and public sectors and teams as large as 124 people. I've taken failed or failing projects and put them back on the rails and taken them to successful completion. I have testified before bodies such as FCC, state PUCs, and the DoJ. There is a lot I have seen and many people with whom I have become acquainted over the years. Can you say the same? If so, let us see the summary as I have put to you right here. My point is not to brag but to demonstrate that my views are valid and not the products of wishful thinking based in no real-world experience.

    You are correct in your broad assertion that something is amiss in the world. No rational man will deny this. However, your chain of reasoning as to causes and effects is pretty vague and therefore pretty lousy. Or perhaps it is just a careless expressive style at work. You speak in vagaries, making broad and unsupported assertions. What is a thinking man supposed to do with that? As yet, you remain largely non-credible. If you have any interest in being taken seriously, you need to get into some better habits of communicating your ideas because your apparent logic has many very large holes in it.


    I would suggest you take the ego, zip it behind your fly as would be prudent, and try to learn something so you do not make a fool of yourself before people who know better.


    That would probably work with an undergrad, but I know the truth and if you take the time to read those two links, so will you.
    Oh please. How about you give an example from your vast real world experience in how that which you assert is demonstrated? Let us have something concrete from your personal experience that shows us you have the chops to make credible arguments.

    I may or may not look at your links... time permitting, as I have a house to finish.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  10. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    Wiz: So what are we doing about liberty, liberty movement?

    Liberty movement: Ron Paul 2008!!! Ron Paul 2012!!! Rand Paul 2016!!!

    Wiz: Hmmm. Electoral politics is certainly a part of the strategy but given how bad things are shouldn't we develop more comprehensive strategies and work on actually organizing supporters beyond GOTV efforts?

    Liberty movement: You can't herd cats. Besides, I don't really care, I have plenty of ammo and food.

    More clear, osan?
    Actually, no. I asked how the "mantra" which you attributed to "half of the forum members" was so attributable. I see no answer in your response. That bit about herding cats makes no sense to me. Perhaps I'm just not smart enough. What say we let this one go, OK?

    As to the broader question - what would you have the "liberty movement" (whatever that might be) do? Shall we start shooting? I have myself many times suggested that this is the one side of the decision branch to which we shall all ultimately arrive: fight or capitulate. However, I do not see it as being quite yet the time, if for no other reason than that far too many Americans are still lolling at the mall, thinking everything is A-OK and that Bammy is their savior and so forth. I don't know what the best answer is, given the realities. Sure, the bulk of Americans rising up from their stupors, suddenly imbued with the knowledge of their rightful places in the world and the wisdom to lend force to the restoration of their rights would be the best path forward. I do not, however, intend on holding my breath in wait for that eventuality. Voting harder appears, after so many decades of the precise same deeper result, to have proven itself one of the paths of insanity, so I must reject that one out of basic self-respect, if nothing else. We have been apparently abused with the various snake-oil solutions such as mystical, magical-beast grand juries by which we the people would take all tyrants by their testicles and serve out proper justice and warnings to all who would violate the "public trust". The only thing remaining is to start shooting. Will YOU fire the first round? Didn't think so. Until then, perhaps you are as stymied as are the rest of us.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  11. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBornAngel View Post

    Can we limit that to the definition found here and skip all the disputing of state crapitalism under the soviet model?
    Please?
    It's because the communism as defined there doesn't work. Because if there are no prices, wages & profits then nobody knows what, where, when & how much is needed, that's the economic calculation problem; so eventually, a few "leaders" take over & tell people what to do, they become the de facto rulers, which is what leads to state-communism.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBornAngel View Post

    I'm not sure how to prioritize labor, the fact is more people want doctors than want cat skinners so some measure of the work done is needed to ensure that I skin enough cats to not be a drain on the world.
    Well, then you need figure out how to prioritize labor without prices, wages & profits because that's the reason why communism has always failed & will always fail.

    And since you want a "classless" society, & everybody is entitled to the same amount of goods & services, there will be a shortage of doctors & massive surplus of cat-skinners that don't have much work to do. If you want more doctors than cat-skinners then you need a system that compensates the doctors a lot more than cat-skinners, which is why capitalism pays doctors more than cat-skinners, it reflects the demand & value of their labor compared to the demand & value of the labor of cat-skinners.

    If you don't have a comprehensive plan of action with all the minute details figured out then you're just building castles in the air, appealing to emotions rather than reason.
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  12. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Originally Posted by FreeBornAngel I understand economics just fine, thanks.
    I've seen no evidence of that.
    Not only do you not understand free market economics, it seems you don't even understand socialism.
    All of the socialist visions are fatally flawed, but yours is - in addition - barely intelligible.
    Well, clearly my economics do not coincide with your economic views.
    That doesn't invalidate my position.
    I never claimed to be socialist.
    In fact, by the commonly held definitions my proposal is neither communist, nor socialist. Both of the current definitions of those comes with wage slavery and I end that practice in my proposal.

    Complete nonsense.
    E.G. The average real wage of unskilled labor increased ~700% in the 19th century alone, long before any meaningful union activity or social welfare programs.
    Can you link to those numbers?
    Any rise in wages came from the refusal of the worker to accept the lower wage.

    Ah yes, the massive increase in living standards of the last two centuries - dwarfing the combined accomplishments of the preceding 10,000 years - was just a trick!
    Something other than crapitalism is at work here, I assert that rising education levels are to blame.
    Free everything in unlimited supply!? Just by eliminating prices and making rational economic calculation impossible!? How can I lose!?
    Sort of,...rational decisions are made by the shelves being empty.
    The person reordering goods for walmart doesn't first consult the accounting department, she just reorders from the supplier.
    Walmart's supply of goods continues in the absence of the accountant provided the workers continue to create and stock the goods.
    We have to have workers, we don't have to have dollars.

    Communism is a mental disorder. Seek help.
    And crapitalism is a crime, we know who you are,...you have name plates on your desks,....

    [QUOTE=Occam's Banana;5871995]This nonsense is basically just Oskar Lange - warmed-over, watered-down and grossly oversimplified.
    It's just "market socialism" - only without prices (and even Lange wasn't foolish enough to go that far).
    Then he didn't solve the problem.
    As long as we divide ourselves into employee and employer we will always have second class citizens.
    The rich will exploit the poor for their poverty.

    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    That is a non-answer. So noted.
    Perhaps the answer is not obvious to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by osan
    I strongly suggest you take a basic accounting class, that you may learn just how wholly mistaken you are on this point.
    Quote Originally Posted by FBA
    Why? So I too can parrot back the mindless blather of crapitalist economics?
    No thanks, I would rather find alternatives to my (wage) slavery.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan
    This presupposes facts not in evidence.
    Does it?

    I fully agree that wage-slavery exists in places,
    Well, at least you are that intellectually honest,...
    demonstrably effective principles of financial accounting.
    How demonstrably?
    The stocker at walmart does not consult accounting to reorder goods, the two are exclusive of each other.
    The accountant doesn't tell the stocker it's time to reorder and the stocker doesn't consult the accountant.

    The issues are quite separate.
    See, even you agree,...

    I would also advise some serious caution in your use of "wage slavery" because it speaks nothing of nature and cause.
    Why would I call slavery freedom?
    Why would I call myself free when I can be taken into custody for not agreeing that wearing a seatbelt is a good idea?
    When did free to follow the rules replace actually being free in the minds of the majority?

    What is "wage slavery", whence does it arise, who engages in its administration, and so forth.
    Wage slavery is when you can choose between starving and living under a bridge or getting a job.
    The current paradigm is slavery because if I don't submit to working for less than the value my work creates then I am left to starve.
    Unless I am willing to support the shareholder from the value I create with my work then I can live under a bridge.

    And here all you succeed in accomplishing is the assassination of your own credibility.
    If my credibility revolves around being a good slave then I don't want any, thanks.
    I've been in business 35 years in a wide spectrum of endeavors in terms of clients, environments, and so forth.
    So, there is your problem, you are too invested in crapitalism to see yourself outside of it.
    You have climbed the economic ladder high enough that now you defend having to climb a ladder.
    The slave masters have made you a house slave instead of a field slave.

    You make up a childish term, "CRAPitalism",
    I think it accurately, and succinctly, defines the deal I am offered.

    I have an appreciably broad experience base, have lived in 12 states from sea to shining sea, earned seven degrees, and all of this tells me that you are very mistaken in your opinions.
    So, unless I am 'successful' as defined by your matrix I am not credible?
    I, too, have a past to point to, but I prefer to be judged on my current assertions because in the past I have been a jerk.

    I fully agree that there is much that is very wrong about the current scheme of things.
    Then why don't you embrace an alternative to the current scheme that does more than just rearrange the deck chairs/masters?

    I am an MBA with about 35 years in business,...I cut my professional teeth on Wall Street,.... I've managed billion-dollar projects,... I have testified before bodies such as FCC, state PUCs, and the DoJ.,...
    So, again, you have climbed the ladder high enough to defend your house slave mentality.
    I have lived an eventful life as well, and now I can present an alternative to the matrix as engineered by the engineers of consent, can you?
    You point to your success within the paradigm as evidence of your qualification to judge it.
    I point to my assertion, we have to have workers, we don't have to have dollars, as proof of my escape from it.
    I have no desire to call slavery freedom.
    Ignorance is not my strength.

    Let us have something concrete from your personal experience that shows us you have the chops to make credible arguments.
    Is not my ability to see outside the box created to enslave my mind sufficient to demonstrate that I have chops?
    If you proposed any changes to the paradigm would you use the nomenclature of your enslavement to do so?,...ie, 'free markets', 'end the fed', if only we had different masters,....etc,...
    Face it, osan, you are trapped in an invisible box and happy to be there.

    I may or may not look at your links... time permitting, as I have a house to finish.
    Make yourself happy, if we were geographically neighbors I would probably come help you, not because of the rewards you could offer, but because of the chance we would have to debate the slavery you defend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II View Post
    It's because the communism as defined there doesn't work.
    I will agree that the time wasn't right for my proposal before the big box stores were created, but now that they do exist, we can continue to fill the shelves will tossing off the monkey masters that the accountants, ceo's, and shareholders, are.

    Because if there are no prices, wages & profits then nobody knows what, where, when & how much is needed,
    Empty shelves indicate the need for more production, the shelves overflowing indicate less production is needed,...do you need more indicators?
    If you can't give your product away perhaps you should seek other work,...

    which is what leads to state-communism.
    State communism came from the same banksters controlling the west controlling the east,...
    The same bankster families financed hitler, stalin, pol pot, bush and Clinton,...
    He who has the gold makes the rules,...


    And since you want a "classless" society, & everybody is entitled to the same amount of goods & services
    That isn't what I have illustrated.
    All I have asserted is that working entitles you to one share of the work.
    Not everybody will need the same amount of goods, some people are quite happy with a minimum of consumption.
    Excessive consumption will come with the same neighborly derision as currently befits the homeless.

    If you don't have a comprehensive plan of action with all the minute details figured out then you're just building castles in the air, appealing to emotions rather than reason.
    I think I have laid it out pretty comprehensively, we just keep working and stop paying at the pump.

  13. #101

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBornAngel View Post

    Well, just as soon as you back up your claims I will sure give you your due.
    When I make a claim that needs backing up, I do it. Some things are simply self-evidently true.


    I agree, somebody has to direct the direction of the group.
    In a productive setting somebody will keep the production on track while others actually produce.
    This will be determined by consensus.
    What a horrible idea. Why on Earth do you think that "consensus" (if one can even be reached in the first place, which is hardly a given) is a good way to choose who leads a firm? There is absolutely nothing meritocratic about the masses choosing who leads them, as history has thoroughly demonstrated.

    However, that won't be a top down dictatorship as most hierarchies currently are.
    Anyone not happy with the arrangements can seek work elsewhere and not have any bills to meet in the mean time.
    Under crapitalism(and heathianism) if you are not happy with your job you live under a bridge and starve until you find another, hardly a free choice.
    I hear this a lot from leftard libertarians, and your problem is not with capitalism, but with reality. To maintain one's existence, one must produce. This would be true in an anarcho-communist collective too, or the society would be eaten alive by free riders.


    So, if Wikipedia is to be believed you want a central dictator to keep things rolling smoothly as the wealth migrates from the plebes to the ruling class?
    Seriously?
    Um, no. That's your strawman, plebe.

    You don't see any problem with centralized dictators keeping non-rent payers from having a house?
    Since I am a radical decentralist, there wouldn't be much in the way of non-rent payers, as the political unit would be as close to the organic community as possible. The right of exit would be respected at all times, and secession would be allowed if a business bought the land out from under the CEO. Also, Heathian corporations would compete with one another to provide the best service of law to the masses.

    Moreover, a Heathian CEO is not a dictator. There is a more thorough balance of power within Heathianism than any state that has ever existed, or any mob rule advocated by left anarchists. The social contract would be transformed into an actual contract that is agreed upon by all who liv within the Heathian civilization.

    Please stop calling yourself an anarchist,....you are giving us a bad name.
    $#@! you. You don't have a monopoly on that term, plebe. Heathianism is a form of anarchism, whether you like it or not.

    As for reactionary politics as defined by Wikipedia, good luck with that, I, and presumably anyone else that can't define heathianism, won't be submitting to your tyranny anytime soon.
    Wikipedia scholars are so funny. Why not try actually reading the thinkers, instead of looking for cliff notes? I did with left anarchism. I ask too much, I know.


    Well, perhaps, but at least I recognize the danger that is coercive control over others.
    If the right of exit and secession are respected, there is no coercive control by any reasonable definition.

    My proposal delivers on it's promise of utopia,
    Ye Gods. Whenever someone seriously talking about utopia, RUN! Mass butchery is on the way very soon. You'd think someone who claims to question

    whereas your heathianism is just the status quo on steroids.
    First of all, saying something is "status quo" is not an argument. Secondly, there is nothing remotely status quo about Heathian anarchism. You either don't understand Heathianism, don't understand the status quo, or (more likely) both.
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.

  14. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    When I make a claim that needs backing up, I do it. Some things are simply self-evidently true.
    To whom?
    Nothing is given a pass in good science.
    Just as jurisdiction should always be challenged in law, so too should all 'self-evident' 'truths' be questioned.

    There is absolutely nothing meritocratic about the masses choosing who leads them, as history has thoroughly demonstrated.
    Right, those most willing to use violence have always drug us around by the hair.
    It's time to change that, rule by force is wrong.
    If you can't get a consensus do you think you can just push people around with your thugs?

    To maintain one's existence, one must produce. This would be true in an anarcho-communist collective too, or the society would be eaten alive by free riders.
    One must absolutely produce, you have read the proposal? It is better to carry a bum than to enslave him.
    We have to have workers, we don't have to have dollars.
    As long as the workers that worked today work tomorrow we can just stop paying at the pump and everything is free.
    As long as you contribute in excess of what you consume the excess piles up to the benefit of all.

    Um, no. That's your strawman, plebe.
    Heathian,...The Heathian goal is to have cities and large land areas owned by single private corporations, which would own and rent out the land and housing over the area, and provide all conceivable "public services": police, fire, roads, courts, etc., out of the voluntarily-paid rent.

    Hardly a strawman, you want a central dictator living from the rent he collects from the masses.
    Whoever controls the corporations would control the planet.
    Are you a paid troll?
    You are certainly no anarchist and heathian anarchism is a contradiction in terms, an oxymoron.
    No anarchist would advocate for a central corporation to control everything.

    Also, Heathian corporations would compete with one another to provide the best service of law to the masses.
    Your ignorance of anarchism is showing.
    There is no need for law services in a society that cooperates for the betterment of all.
    Only when using violence and/or deception brings more pleasure are laws needed.
    and secession would be allowed if a business bought the land out from under the CEO.
    So freedom is not inherent in my being born but is a condition that I can buy from my owner?

    Moreover, a Heathian CEO is not a dictator.
    He's going to have to be because any body that understands anarchists knows that they will not comply with this scheme, too much centralized power.

    any mob rule advocated by left anarchists.
    Any one that advocates rule by force is not an anarchist and needs to quit misusing the term.

    $#@! you. You don't have a monopoly on that term, plebe. Heathianism is a form of anarchism, whether you like it or not.
    Nor do you, and no it's not.
    Just as what happened in the ussr was not communism.

    Why not try actually reading the thinkers, instead of looking for cliff notes?
    Ok, link to them, I am going to have some reading time soon.

    If the right of exit and secession are respected, there is no coercive control by any reasonable definition.
    Ok, as long as you don't send thugs to enforce your edicts.
    What happens when I spend my money on whores and not rent?
    Do my wages equate to the full value of my labor or does some boss take a profit?
    Does my rent equal the cost of housing me or does the ceo take a profit and live from not working but collecting the rent?

    Whenever someone seriously talking about utopia, RUN! Mass butchery is on the way very soon.
    Well, I would agree, except that rule by force is ended under anarchism, and my proposal.
    My proposal comes closest to utopia of all proposals that I have seen.
    And then there were none, Frank Russell
    Looking Backwards, Edward Bellamy
    The Iron Heel, Jack London

    You either don't understand Heathianism, don't understand the status quo, or (more likely) both.
    Rule by force I understand just fine, but if you'll link to some authors I will give a good faith attempt to understand why your proposal comes with a central authority collecting rents and claims to be anarchism.

  15. #103
    What??
    Was it something I said?

  16. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBornAngel View Post
    What??
    Was it something I said?
    If it were not for it being a PITA to type on this phone I'd be in on this circular conversation.

    What incentives would one have to say, TIG weld over bagging groceries? Or to crawl around in the desert heat changing oil over say, ordering the replenishment needed for grocery stores? Who decides who does what? You?

    Would you concede that such a system is incredibly inefficient? That such a system is the epitome of totalitarianism?

    Or are robots (that don't even exist yet and quite possibly will never exist) expected to perform the majority of work? An army of machines will require an army of workers to fix said machines. If it's all the same, I'd rather answer phones in the supreme leader's palace rather than fix robots. As would a large portion of society.

    "No leaders", logic will be insulted with. As naive as that is (considering that some sort of central bureaucracy would need established to decide how many airplane mechanics 'we' need versus customer service representatives), all work is not equal.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump



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  18. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBornAngel View Post
    Crapitalism is the economic system preferred by dictators world wide, that should be your clue.

    Let's use walmart as our example, though it could be any big box world wide distributor.

    If the people that make the products and the people that distribute the goods show up to work then the goods will be on the shelves even if the accounting department jumps off a cliff.

    The people that mine the minerals, refine the minerals into raw materials, fashion the raw materials into finished products, and those that distribute those products could care less if the corporation collects it's billions or not, as long as they continue to show up to do the work then the products continue to be on the shelves.

    We have to have workers to produce the goods, we don't have to have dollars to make the goods available.

    If the workers just take what they need from the shelves in order to continue producing the goods then the goods will continue to be produced.

    They could just order what they need from the net and have it delivered to their door.

    What I am asserting is that if the workers do the work the system continues to supply the shelves in the absence of an accounting department.
    Why would workers work when they don't get paid?

  19. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBornAngel View Post
    Nothing is given a pass in good science.
    That's not true. Science, like all searches for truth, must operate on the basis of certain assumptions. And these assumptions can't themselves be based on science, or else they would be circular, which is no different than giving them a pass.

  20. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBornAngel View Post
    Ok, but why should we leave wage slavery in place?
    What is "wage slavery"? And what is the alternative to leaving it in place?

  21. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBornAngel View Post
    Well, clearly my economics do not coincide with your economic views.
    That doesn't invalidate my position.
    Economics is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of logic and (if we're talking history) facts; your logic is unsound and your facts are wrong.

    I am aware, however, that you will never change your mind (religious fanatics rarely do).

    I never claimed to be socialist.
    Putting feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken.

    In other words, it doesn't matter what you claim, your proposal is in fact a type of socialism.

    If you don't want to be called a socialist, stop advocating socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by BornFreeAngel
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0
    Complete nonsense. E.G. The average real wage of unskilled labor increased ~700% in the 19th century alone, long before any meaningful union activity or social welfare programs. Can you link to those numbers?
    Can you link to those numbers?
    Couldn't find my original source, but there are lots of estimates out there. All of them have real wages increasing by several hundred percent.

    This one estimates nominal wages as increasing 233% while the CPI dropped 33%, for a increase in real wages of 249.5%.

    And, again, that's for unskilled labor, the proletariat.

    Any rise in wages came from the refusal of the worker to accept the lower wage.
    Uh, duh.

    Wages are a result of negotiation between employee and employer. The employer cannot pay more than the marginal revenue product of the laborer's work (i.e. how much additional revenue his brings in to the business), and the worker is going to go to the employer who offers him the most money - with the result that employers compete for workers so that wages hover at a level just below their marginal revenue product. Why do wages rise over time? Because the marginal revenue product of labor rises. Why? Because of capital investment (a worker sewing shirts by hand produces less shirts per hour than one working the shirt-sowing machine).

    But I repeat myself...

    Quote Originally Posted by BornFreeAngel
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0
    Ah yes, the massive increase in living standards of the last two centuries - dwarfing the combined accomplishments of the preceding 10,000 years - was just a trick!
    Something other than crapitalism is at work here, I assert that rising education levels are to blame.
    We're talking about unskilled labor - education has nothing to do with it.

    Sort of,...rational decisions are made by the shelves being empty.
    The person reordering goods for walmart doesn't first consult the accounting department, she just reorders from the supplier.
    Walmart's supply of goods continues in the absence of the accountant provided the workers continue to create and stock the goods.
    We have to have workers, we don't have to have dollars.
    In your system:

    there is no incentive to produce anything,

    no way to know what to produce or how much,

    no way to know which is the most efficient way of producing it,

    and no one tasked with trying to answer those questions (I guess it just comes to the workers in a dream or something...).

    Your system, if actually adhered to for any length of time (which it wouldn't and couldn't be), would quickly result in death by starvation for virtually everyone on the planet (that's what happens when nothing is being produced). The Soviet Union would actually be preferable, as they managed to produce something (not very much, mind you, but something), because they used coercion. But you eliminate all incentives for voluntary production and also eschew coercion, the result being a bunch of confused people loafing about with rumbling bellies.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 06-14-2015 at 08:27 PM.

  22. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBornAngel View Post
    Capitalism...Walmart
    If Walmart engages in capitalism then why does it depend on government aid, though acquisitions of land, tax breaks, Obamacare exemptions, and social justice programs for their underpaid part-time employees?
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  23. #110
    Communism=Obamneycare, social security, taxed to death, political correctness and you know the rest.
    Last edited by rg17; 08-05-2015 at 08:02 AM.

  24. #111
    I'm not a Capitalist myself, at the moment my dream society would consist largely of Free Market Socialism, similar to Distributism. But the OP's post is just incoherent and too silly to really tackle. It seems they're proposing some market-less Anarcho-Communist society if I understand correctly.

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