Debunking Crapitalism

[FreeBornAngel]

Crapitalism is the economic system preferred by dictators world wide, that should be your clue.

Let's use walmart as our example, though it could be any big box world wide distributor.

If the people that make the products and the people that distribute the goods show up to work then the goods will be on the shelves even if the accounting department jumps off a cliff.

The people that mine the minerals, refine the minerals into raw materials, fashion the raw materials into finished products, and those that distribute those products could care less if the corporation collects it's billions or not, as long as they continue to show up to do the work then the products continue to be on the shelves.

We have to have workers to produce the goods, we don't have to have dollars to make the goods available.

If the workers just take what they need from the shelves in order to continue producing the goods then the goods will continue to be produced.

They could just order what they need from the net and have it delivered to their door.

What I am asserting is that if the workers do the work the system continues to supply the shelves in the absence of an accounting department.

[Ronin Truth]

How about debunking State Capitalism first?

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...50.CEsv7V-uEEA

"Capitalism should not be condemned, since we haven't had capitalism." -- Ron Paul

[wizardwatson]

I love Walmart.

You know Walmart is the only credit card I have, or have ever had, where they have a program that if I lose my job they'll let me skip payments for a few months.

I'm also cheap. I've bounced around Target/Kmart and compared over the years and every time I think Walmart is high, the others are as high or higher. I know people who work at Walmart. I've never heard anyone complain about what it's like to work there.

The only people I've ever really heard complain about Walmart are from two camps. One camp hates them because they represent a successful business and they hate anyone who has wealth. So they judge them on tactics that every successful business uses to succeed.

The other camp is the people who like to point out how Walmart shoppers are white trashy and/or ghetto.

Both of these things show they are running a good business and offering products at reasonable prices. Rich people are wiser savers but poor people are wiser spenders.

[Ronin Truth]

I love Walmart.

You know Walmart is the only credit card I have, or have ever had, where they have a program that if I lose my job they'll let me skip payments for a few months.

I'm also cheap. I've bounced around Target/Kmart and compared over the years and every time I think Walmart is high, the others are as high or higher. I know people who work at Walmart. I've never heard anyone complain about what it's like to work there.

The only people I've ever really heard complain about Walmart are from two camps. One camp hates them because they represent a successful business and they hate anyone who has wealth. So they judge them on tactics that every successful business uses to succeed.

The other camp is the people who like to point out how Walmart shoppers are white trashy and/or ghetto.

Both of these things show they are running a good business and offering products at reasonable prices. Rich people are wiser savers but poor people are wiser spenders.

Everybody hates Wal*Mart, except for the customers and the stockholders. As a customer they do tend to piss me off, from time to time.

OPEN MORE REGISTERS!

[FreeBornAngel]

How about debunking State Capitalism first.
"Capitalism should not be condemned, since we haven't had capitalism." -- Ron Paul

Ok, but why should we leave wage slavery in place?
Even if crapitalism were performed by only sole proprietors it would still exploit people for their inability to produce goods.
Would you pay somebody to shave your face or mow your lawn if you could do it for yourself?
Crapitalism exploits the inability of the 'customer' to produce the product themselves.

I love Walmart.

I love walmart, too.
I just want to use it's structure to benefit the worker and not the one percent.
As long as the workers continue to supply the goods we can eliminate the accounting department.

We have to have workers we don't have to have dollars.

[Ronin Truth]

Ok, but why should we leave wage slavery in place?
Even if crapitalism were performed by only sole proprietors it would still exploit people for their inability to produce goods.
Would you pay somebody to shave your face or mow your lawn if you could do it for yourself?
Crapitalism exploits the inability of the 'customer' to produce the product themselves.




I love walmart, too.
I just want to use it's structure to benefit the worker and not the one percent.
As long as the workers continue to supply the goods we can eliminate the accounting department.

We have to have workers we don't have to have dollars.

I didn't suggest that. Is that a part of state capitalism? We don't have to have FRNs either.

It's your thread, do it however you want. (Excluding the labor theory of value, of course.)

BTW, a lot of the WalMart workers are also WalMart stockholders. It's a choice thing.

[dannno]

I hate Walmart too.

Accounting departments within corporations are bloated due to government regulations and taxation. I learned that pretty early on in my career and have tried to stay out of accounting for that reason, it felt like I was just doing a bunch of work for my company so it could be reported it to the government properly.

What free market capitalism does is it helps rank people's preferences for goods and services, since there is a limited availability they are distributed based on the market value of that which you produce. If that which you produce is valuable and there is a high profit margin, then that means more people want it and more people will enter the market to provide that good or service and meet those people's demands. These are called market signals, and they are very important. Your system ignores that and somehow you think it can all be coordinated centrally..

The fantasy you have about some central entity or government dictating what is produced, how much and who gets it is completely and utterly unattainable and to even work towards it leads to major inefficiencies and less of the goods and services being produced that people primarily desire.

[FreeBornAngel]

I didn't suggest that. Is that a part of state capitalism? (Excluding the labor theory of value, of course.)

Crapitalism is wage slavery, whether that wage comes from infinite customers or an employer.

I don't need the labor theory of value either.
Anything that leaves values in place is just crapitalism.
The value of life should not be measured in dollars per hour.

[FreeBornAngel]

The fantasy you have about some central entity or government dictating what is produced, how much and who gets it is completely and utterly unattainable and to even work towards it leads to major inefficiencies and less of the goods and services being produced that people primarily desire.

Point where I said that.
I would think that empty shelves would spur reorders and full shelves would preclude them.

I never said anything about central authority. I would state that somebody has to enter the fact that the shelf was empty and resupply needed, but they would not be dictating what goes on the shelf, only noting it's absence.

[Henry Rogue]

Many dictators prefer communism, Stalin, mao tse tung, kim jong il, Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez. Most of the rest prefer fascism, Mussolini, Hitler, Frank Roosevelt. A few moved towards capitalism, Chile's military junta, but the government still owned and controlled mining operations, China to an extent.

[dannno]

Stefan Molyneux has a great explanation for why modern day governments and dictators prefer a more free market capitalist system as opposed to a slave state or a communist system... it is because the people are like cattle and free market or free range cattle produce more for the farmer:

[Ronin Truth]

Crapitalism is wage slavery, whether that wage comes from infinite customers or an employer.

I don't need the labor theory of value either.
Anything that leaves values in place is just crapitalism.
The value of life should not be measured in dollars per hour.

Am I safe in assuming that you are anti-profit? The value of labor, not life, is measured in dollars per hour. I can sell my labor, but not my life.

The Philosophy of Liberty (video)

[FreeBornAngel]

Many dictators prefer communism, Stalin, mao tse tung, kim jong il, Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez. Most of the rest prefer fascism, Mussolini, Hitler, Frank Roosevelt. A few moved towards capitalism, Chile's military junta, but the government still owned and controlled mining operations, China to an extent.

That isn't communism.
Here is a report from the time period from a person that was on the ground and had a real good idea of what communism is.

What you reference is state crapitalism, or fascism.
What you point to is the mirror image of what we have in the US.
There the gov't controls the corporations and here the corporations control the gov't.
Mirror images.
Both fascism.

[dannno]

Point where I said that.
I would think that empty shelves would spur reorders and full shelves would preclude them.

I never said anything about central authority. I would state that somebody has to enter the fact that the shelf was empty and resupply needed, but they would not be dictating what goes on the shelf, only noting it's absence.

Why is somebody going to go out and mine a bunch of stuff and produce something just because a shelf hundreds of miles away is empty?

[FreeBornAngel]

Stefan Molyneux has a great explanation for why modern day governments and dictators prefer a more free market capitalist system as opposed to a slave state or a communist system... it is because the people are like cattle and free market or free range cattle produce more:

Exactly, dannno.
This is why I propose eliminating dollars.
As long as the workers continue to supply the demand from the shelves the accounting department can get real jobs.

[FreeBornAngel]

Am I safe in assuming that you are anti-profit? The value of labor, not life, is measured in dollars per hour. I can sell my labor, but not my life.

What is your life if not the hours that make it up?

[Ronin Truth]

What is your life if not the hours that make it up?

The majority the waking hours of it is doing what I want. The rest are merely a means to a preferred and preferable chosen end.

If you live to be 60, you sleep for 20 years.

[dannno]

Exactly, dannno.
This is why I propose eliminating dollars.
As long as the workers continue to supply the demand from the shelves the accounting department can get real jobs.

Eliminating the federal reserve (dollars) and allowing people to trade in gold, silver and bitcoin would be a great start. You need money to create market signals.

People have non-optimal jobs (like garbage men, factory workers, diving welders) when they could have a job that they would prefer more (service sector, parking attendant, etc) because they make more money at non-optimal or more dangerous job or because their customer service skills aren't as good as some people in that industry (do you appreciate good customer service?). Not everybody can have their dream job, nobody wants to work in a factory.

People take jobs and wages that are the best option for them depending on their location and skill set, their preference for the type of work and what it pays. If you take away incentives, it all falls apart. Garbage men make good money because nobody wants the job, but it needs to get done and so there is a demand for it. If you took away that incentive, who is going to want to come pick up everybody's garbage? Nobody.

So these signals in the market pull people into doing tasks that they wouldn't normally do, but are more lucrative. If you don't have the market signal, then people aren't going to do the more highly demanded and lucrative tasks unless you force them through slavery.

[Henry Rogue]

Ok, but why should we leave wage slavery in place?
Even if crapitalism were performed by only sole proprietors it would still exploit people for their inability to produce goods.
Would you pay somebody to shave your face or mow your lawn if you could do it for yourself?

I do, do it myself and yes, I would pay someone else to do it, if my time is better spent doing something else. It's called division of labor.

Crapitalism exploits the inability of the[/B] 'customer'[/B] to produce the product themselves.

Employers are the employees' customers.

[FreeBornAngel]

Why is somebody going to go out and mine a bunch of stuff and produce something just because a shelf hundreds of miles away is empty?

Not exactly.
We work because we don't want to be parasites on the other workers.
Somebody has to make the cars, shoes, houses, etc,...the most efficient way to do this is by the division of labor.
The miner mines and the refiner refines because they know the farmer will grow the food and the trucker will distribute it.
I would assert that the mathematicians will devise some measure so that we can know that working in the shoe factory for 10 years is sufficient to ensure that what we eat from the farmer is equated by our production of shoes, but this number would have to be a guideline or we have just traded dollars for the new measure.
The goal is to assure ourselves that we have produced more than we have consumed and that we have left the world with more material wealth than when we entered it.

That having been said, how do we quantify grandma's giving of the one thing we all need, unconditional love?

[specsaregood]

/.

[Ronin Truth]

What is Capitalism?

Capitalism is a social system based on the principle of individual rights. Politically, it is the system of laissez-faire (freedom). Legally it is a system of objective laws (rule of law as opposed to rule of man). Economically, when such freedom is applied to the sphere of production its result is the free-market.

http://capitalism.org/

[Henry Rogue]

That isn't communism.
Here is a report from the time period from a person that was on the ground and had a real good idea of what communism is.

So did Yuri Maltsev http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8mb5555PCfU But Yuri doesn't call it communism either, He calls it socialism. I call it statism.

What you reference is state crapitalism, or fascism.

Yep, created by the state.

What you point to is the mirror image of what we have in the US.
There the gov't controls the corporations and here the corporations control the gov't.
Mirror images.
Both fascism.

That's why I included Frank Roosevelt. Roosevelt controlled the corporations. Funny how dictators get democratically elected.

[Ronin Truth]

Hey, what a deal. An absolutely free book titled, "Capitalism - A Treatise on Economics", only 1,097 pages.

http://www.capitalism.net/Capitalism...M_Internet.pdf

Enjoy during your non-slave labor, free time!

[Henry Rogue]

We have to have workers we don't have to have dollars.

How are you going to force people to not create and use money, without paying your enforcers? Are you going to pay them with food? Who are you going to steal the food from?

[Barrex]

Before you answer any of my question could you please explain with what would you replace current system? What would happen with people who refuse to join your new system? What books did you read regarding systems of governments and society?

Crapitalism exploits the inability of the 'customer' to produce the product themselves.

??? What? Customer is producer of some other good that he produces and then exchanges for other products...I have inability to produce DEATH STAR (real functioning one. Big as a moon. With lazors, death rays and my own Storm Troopers). Capitalism is exploiting that i am not able to produce it by my self.

We have to have workers we don't have to have dollars.

Are you for abolishing all currencies (dollars, euros, gold, silver)? Barter? If I make shoes and want to exchange them for bread, how would I do it without currency/money?

Not exactly.
We work because we don't want to be parasites on the other workers.

Riiight....Inability to produce time machine makes me unable to invite you to my homeland 30 years ago. Yugoslavia. People "don't want to be parasites on the other workers"...lol... everyone works, everyone gets payed... doesnt matter did you sleep entire day at work or worked hard...everybody gets payed... Accountants in a firm make plans for future production but cleaning ladies dont like their new plans because accountants want to shift production toward dirtier process. If this happens cleaning ladies will have a lot more work to do. Vote is held and since there are a lot more cleaning ladies than there is people in accounting + director cleaning ladies won the vote. Factory continued to produce product that no one wanted to buy. TRUE STORY!

Somebody has to make the cars, shoes, houses, etc,...the most efficient way to do this is by the division of labor.

Who decides who divides labor? What happens to me (those who dont want to participate) and my property?

The miner mines and the refiner refines because they know the farmer will grow the food and the trucker will distribute it.

I got farm. I will not farm if I dont get payed for it. I dont care if my produce is going to be distributed. I will not produce if i am not getting payed. What I produce I will eat my self and sell it on black market. What would you do with me?

I would assert that the mathematicians will devise some measure so that we can...

Pretty big assertion. When people make those kinds of assertions millions die. Few mathematicians (small amount of people) deciding who works what, where and how much? How would you call your new system? Oligarchy? Kingdom? Tyranny?

The goal is to assure ourselves that we have produced more than we have consumed and that we have left the world with more material wealth than when we entered it.

That having been said, how do we quantify grandma's giving of the one thing we all need, unconditional love?

I will assert that you didnt read any Austrian economists. If you did you would know that value is subjective.


P.s.
Dont take my words personally I am not attacking you I am attacking your argument.

[Henry Rogue]

What you reference is state crapitalism, or fascism.
What you point to is the mirror image of what we have in the US.
There the gov't controls the corporations and here the corporations control the gov't.
Mirror images.
Both fascism.

Private markets plus state overlords create fascism in one direction or another.
Private markets, voluntarily exchange, prosperity, creativity, freedom.
State authority, mandate, murder, destruction, slavery, misery.
Conclusion? Get rid of markets and keep the state authority.
smh

[Ronin Truth]

Are there other kinds of angels besides FreeBorn?

[GunnyFreedom]

Crapitalism is wage slavery, whether that wage comes from infinite customers or an employer.

I don't need the labor theory of value either.
Anything that leaves values in place is just crapitalism.
The value of life should not be measured in dollars per hour.

Corporatism is wage slavery. Capitalism is prosperity. The Austrian School provides the fundamentals and the data to best fashion that kind of capitalism to enhance general prosperity.

[FreeBornAngel]

The majority the waking hours of it is doing what I want. The rest are merely a means to a preferred and preferable chosen end.
If you live to be 60, you sleep for 20 years.

Right, and how much more could you sleep if you didn't have to work on Saturdays to supply the shareholders' profits?

Eliminating the federal reserve (dollars) and allowing people to trade in gold, silver and bitcoin would be a great start. You need money to create market signals.

No, you don't need money for market signals, reorders from the warehouses supply all the signals needed.

Garbage men make good money because nobody wants the job, but it needs to get done and so there is a demand for it. If you took away that incentive, who is going to want to come pick up everybody's garbage? Nobody.

Not exactly, some people would do because they like the work, others would do it because it needs to be done and nobody else is stepping up.
When money is removed from the equation other motivations will suffice.
Why do you cut your hair and wear pants to work? Assuming you do,...
Perhaps it would be determined that one needed to spend x number of hours in garbage collecting to balance out the consumption of goods.
If absolutely nobody would do the work then the work won't get done.
The learning curve will serve as an example of why things are done the way things are done.

I do, do it myself and yes, I would pay someone else to do it, if my time is better spent doing something else. It's called division of labor.
Employers are the employees' customers.

I agree that dividing the work is ideal, but I don't agree that the 1% contribute on the scale that their compensation indicates.
If you exploit workers for your own profit then you are a parasite on their labor.
So, you are saying that the wage slave is exploiting the boss?

sheeeit; I've met some mean ass grandmas in my day. mine certainly didn't understand the concept of unconditional love.

LOL, not all will qualify,....

http://capitalism.org/

Right, said like a true believer.
Tell me, if my dad drinks up all his money and I start with nothing do I have a choice but to submit to the lowest wage paid for my skill set?
The crapitalist can afford to wait for me to get hungry enough to agree to his exploitation, whereas I need to eat today and can only do that by agreeing to work for less than the value of my labor.
Is that a free market for my labor?

Crapitalism charges the highest price while paying the lowest wage.
The rich can afford to weight for wages to drop to their mutually agreed upon level while the poor must submit today or starve.
Just as no senator will be cleaning any toilets because he has enough money through other means the homeless have no choice but to accept minimum wage for cleaning the senator's toilet.
This is crapitalism at it's finest.

So did Yuri Maltsev http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8mb5555PCfU But Yuri doesn't call it communism either, He calls it socialism. I call it statism.

Any system that needs armed thugs to keep it in place is not worthy of the label, free.

Funny how dictators get democratically elected.

Yes, as is how the wage slaves have embraced their slavery.

How are you going to force people to not create and use money, without paying your enforcers? Are you going to pay them with food? Who are you going to steal the food from?

I won't have to, the people will embrace what I propose because they can see that my system rewards them better than does crapitalism.
Think how much less you will have to work if you don't have to work overtime to satisfy the greed of the shareholder.
The shareholders will have to become productive under my proposal, they will no longer get something for nothing.
How many hours less will you work if the boss's wife has to work to get her own tennis bracelet?
How many hour less will you have to work to if she has to produce enough widgets to justify her Mercedes.
Crapitalism requires that you work long enough to justify your own wages and the profit needed to buy her these things.

Before you answer any of my question could you please explain with what would you replace current system?

Ok, imagine that the workers working today continue to work for the short term future.
Now instead of paying these workers in vouchers to the company store they just take what they need to keep producing, ie, supper, clothing, housing.
Now imagine that we transition to dividing the work among those between the ages of 20 and 45.
Anyone between these ages should look locally for work.
Anyone that wants to show up should be put to a task that they can manage to perform satisfactorily.
This can be managed online.
If more labor is needed in the mine then that should be made known and volunteers sought.
If more labor is needed in the factory then that should be made known and volunteers sought.
Over the few weeks it takes to settle things down the unemployed become employed and those not producing anything become productive.
The people involved in banking and accounting need to become employed in a task that contributes to the goods on the shelves.
We need workers to make the goods that we want to have.
We don't need banksters and accountants to make that happen.
We do need the banksters and accountants to help with the added demand for big screen tvs.
Anyone between the age of 20 and 45 should be engaged in productive work.
Those over the age of 45 can continue to produce or retire, it is up to them.
Over the next 6 months where additional labor is required to meet increased demand will shake itself out.
Those areas of over production will be taken out of production and those workers engaged in something else, ie, do we have to have 30 different models of washing machines? Why are we doing washing at home when the factory can do it more efficiently?
How many washing machines we need for a six month supply will be created and the excess workers moved to something else, maybe cars.
Food, clothing and shelter will, of course, be priorities.
Now before you go off the rails and start thinking centrally planned dictatorship dystopias, the locals will have to fend for themselves, if you are in an area that can't feed, clothe, and shelter it's self then you and your neighbors will have to reach out regionally for assistance, if none materializes then they will have to seek out an area that can absorb them.

Really what I replace the current system with is the current system minus dollars, bosses, and banksters.
We already have the workers supplying the shelves I just add to their numbers the extraneous workers employed in satisfying the greed of the crapitalists, ie, the managers, accountants, banksters, and shareholders.

[Customer is producer of some other good that he produces and then exchanges for other products...

Yes, that he exchanges at a discount to the 'free' market.
Nobody sells into the market unless he makes a profit.
Nobody employs anybody unless he makes a profit on that employee.
Nobody buys anything unless the seller makes a profit on the sale.
What I propose puts the goods into the warehouse and the consumer's house at cost, minus the profits at each stage of distribution.

[Are you for abolishing all currencies (dollars, euros, gold, silver)? Barter? If I make shoes and want to exchange them for bread, how would I do it without currency/money?

Yes, abolish all mediums of exchange, they have led us into poverty for the majority of workers.
If you make shoes you give them up to the distributions system and draw out what you need to keep producing them, ie, food, clothing, and shelter. In addition you can order whatever is available on the shelf, if you want a Maserati you order one, if demand outstrips supply then more workers will be added to the Maserati factory, really it will be no different than what happens when apple comes out with a new iphone, supply is created to meet demand.
Not everybody will want one of everything.
When people die their goods will still exist for the most part.
If you leave a working car then what has been consumed?, the labor that went into creating that car still exists.

TRUE STORY!

Then shame on the people that let laziness get in the way of producing a better product.
Do you think that if more cleaning ladies had been added the outcome would have been different?
Did the cleaning ladies have access to whatever consumer goods they desired?
Could they order a Maserati from the shelf?

Who decides who divides labor? What happens to me (those who dont want to participate) and my property?

It is based on the honor system.
There will be no central planner saying do this or else.
I would presume that local busybodies would supply enough of that without outside help.
Your neighbors will know if you are bum, or not, and they will treat you accordingly.

What happens to me (those who dont want to participate) and my property?

You get to keep your stuff, but why you wouldn't participate is beyond me.
Just as the 1% get to keep their stuff, if they can keep their lives.

I will not farm if I dont get payed for it.

Ah, but you are paid, what do you want?
Order it from the net, perhaps you will have to wait some period of time, but you will get it as a matter of pride of the workers in that factory.
The 'pay' that you get is one share of the work done.

What I produce I will eat my self and sell it on black market

What black market?
The only 'market' I see surviving is the antiquities market.
When you can order ANYTHING to be delivered to your door how do you trade illicitly?
Without cash what will you trade it for? Any consumer good you want will be delivered to you as a matter of worker pride.

Pretty big assertion.

Not really, the math nerds need to do something productive, it might as well be something useful.
An objective measure that says to have a car, drive it 10,000 miles a year, and the maintenance required to leave a serviceable car when you die will require x number of hours in a factory, or x number of hours in nursing home, or whatever combination you choose to make.

When people make those kinds of assertions millions die.

Only in a world ruled by force, my proposal is 100% voluntary, until the people agree that what I propose rewards their labor better than crapitalism then the idea will not sell.

Few mathematicians (small amount of people) deciding who works what, where and how much? How would you call your new system? Oligarchy? Kingdom? Tyranny?

Nobody tells you where to work or how much. Your pride at not being a parasite on the workers determines how much you work and where.
It is better to carry a bum(reflects poorly on him) than to enslave him(reflects poorly on me).

I call it utopia.

The goal is to assure ourselves that we have produced more than we have consumed and that we have left the world with more material wealth than when we entered it.

That is the proposal.

I will assert that you didnt read any Austrian economists.

I was a die hard crapitalist that couldn't figure out why the anarchists said 'Kill crapitalism before crapitalism kills you.' until I read what Emma Goldman and Pitr Kropotkin had to say about it.

Dont take my words personally I am not attacking you I am attacking your argument.

I bet you can tell me what I mean when I say the social revolution, ask somebody tomorrow and if they can tell you i'll eat my hat.

Private markets plus state overlords create fascism in one direction or another.
Conclusion? Get rid of markets and keep the state authority.
smh

The proposal is totally voluntary, unless the people recognize that my proposal rewards them for their labor better than the status quo it will never come to fruition.

Are there other kinds of angels besides FreeBorn?

Yes, there are those that are born into crapitalism and wage slavery.

Corporatism is wage slavery. Capitalism is prosperity. The Austrian School provides the fundamentals and the data to best fashion that kind of capitalism to enhance general prosperity.

So, you are saying that the Austrian school pays me $100 in wages when I create $100 in widgets?
Wage slavery under ideal conditions is still slavery.
If a portion of the value that my labor creates accrues to anybody except me the system is exploitive and I am a slave.