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Thread: WA State Treasurer Wants state income tax to fund education

  1. #1

    Default WA State Treasurer Wants state income tax to fund education

    OLYMPIA, Wash. -

    Washington state Treasurer Jim McIntire is proposing lowering sales and property tax rates and creating a state an income tax to pay for education.

    The legislature was ordered by the state supreme court to come up with a plan by the end of the current legislative session to fully fund K-12 education as mandated by the state constitution.

    In broad strokes it would mean that a wage earner who is paid $1,000 a week would see about $50 a week in state taxes deducted from his/her paycheck. For someone who makes $52,000/yr that works out to $2,600/yr.

    His proposal is one of a handful of ideas floating around Olympia about to meet the Supreme Court's order to fix the way the state pays for public schools.

    Some of the other proposals included a suggested capital gains tax and a statewide property tax to replace local school levies.

    McIntire's plan calls for a 5 percent personal income tax, but would eliminate the state property tax and reduce business taxes. He says the plan would raise billions of dollars.

    State school superintendent Randy Dorn says he supports the proposal.

    http://www.khq.com/story/28861159/wa...fund-education



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  5. #4

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    Sadly, the progressives run WA and now that the idea is out, the squeams are likely to get their beloved new tax.

    There is a lot I miss about living in WA. Seattle and Olympia are not among them.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Pray for reset.


  6. #5

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    Would this be independent of federal aid?

    States need to quit taking federal bribes, but school should be local.
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  7. #6

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    Washington state Treasurer Jim McIntire is proposing lowering sales and property tax rates and creating a state an income tax to pay for education.
    This will never happen.

    Every time a state has fallen to an income tax, sales and property taxes kept right on going and increasing.

    You send it, they'll spend it and cry broke in another five years.

  8. #7

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    No no no. Just no.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  9. #8

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    Never! Why should we fund ever more taxes!!!!

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by rg17 View Post
    Never! Why should we fund ever more taxes!!!!
    Not surprisingly, very few of you know the way our tax system currently works and the education hole WA is currently in.

    As it stands, Washington state has no income tax. That's great...right?

    Critics will point to the fact that it penalizes the poor and middle class to the benefit of the rich; the State makes its revenue from somewhere, and the only places to really collect it are the Sales Tax and Property taxes. Property taxes are insane here which puts a big burden on the middle class and first time home owners, while sales taxes in many cities in WA are among the highest in the nation which disproportionately shifts the tax burden to the poor.

    But even so, that is an argument about morality, not a disaster that would force change in the tax code. The only real threat would be if the State had a huge obligation to raise revenues while the taxes in place proved they weren't working.

    Well, the portion of taxed goods and services in the market-place has gone from 65% in the late 60s to 35% 2013. Tax revenue in WA has shown it can not keep up with the growth of the economy, with it lagging 30% behind the economy over the last 20 years. Again, that is just taxes collected not keeping up; we aren't talking about tax increases. It is mathematically impossible to sustain a society where the revenue collected shrinks in proportion to a growing population and economy.

    And then the State Supreme Court ruled that Washington was violating its own Constitution and not providing the funding to Education that was required per its founding document. So the State has been scrambling to raise the funds it needs for education to not be held in contempt of the law. The education system here is already underfunded in a big way, and it needs about $2 billion to make it right.

    So the options are a) raise taxes on the poor and middle class (we already have the most regressive tax system in the country) or b) radically change the tax system like the treasurer proposes, which shifts the burden of the tax system around while simultaneously lowering taxes on small businesses and the poor.

    There is no 3rd option.
    Last edited by RabbitMan; 04-22-2015 at 04:18 PM.
    "Freedom, then Pizza!" - Oklahoma State GOP Convention 5/11/2012

  11. #10

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    Didn't Washington tax and regulate marijuana so it wouldn't have this problem? If the casino revenues and marijuana taxes weren't enough, why would the creation of a personal income tax be enough?

    This sounds like a case of an activist Supreme Court and mismanagement of funds by politicians.
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitMan View Post
    There is no 3rd option.
    Um, cut spending. Are you new here?
    Find liberty candidates to support:
    http://www.candidates4liberty.com

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitMan View Post

    Not surprisingly, very few of you know the way our tax system currently works and the education hole WA is currently in.

    As it stands, Washington state has no income tax. That's great...right?

    Critics will point to the fact that it penalizes the poor and middle class to the benefit of the rich; the State makes its revenue from somewhere, and the only places to really collect it are the Sales Tax and Property taxes. Property taxes are insane here which puts a big burden on the middle class and first time home owners, while sales taxes in many cities in WA are among the highest in the nation which disproportionately shifts the tax burden to the poor.

    But even so, that is an argument about morality, not a disaster that would force change in the tax code. The only real threat would be if the State had a huge obligation to raise revenues while the taxes in place proved they weren't working.

    Well, the portion of taxed goods and services in the market-place has gone from 65% in the late 60s to 35% 2013. Tax revenue in WA has shown it can not keep up with the growth of the economy, with it lagging 30% behind the economy over the last 20 years. Again, that is just taxes collected not keeping up; we aren't talking about tax increases. It is mathematically impossible to sustain a society where the revenue collected shrinks in proportion to a growing population and economy.

    And then the State Supreme Court ruled that Washington was violating its own Constitution and not providing the funding to Education that was required per its founding document. So the State has been scrambling to raise the funds it needs for education to not be held in contempt of the law. The education system here is already underfunded in a big way, and it needs about $2 billion to make it right.

    So the options are a) raise taxes on the poor and middle class (we already have the most regressive tax system in the country) or b) radically change the tax system like the treasurer proposes, which shifts the burden of the tax system around while simultaneously lowering taxes on small businesses and the poor.

    There is no 3rd option.
    Having an income tax with a reduced sales tax would just be short term gratification. They will probably just raise the sales tax again in the future which would end up hurting the middle class who has to both pay a sales tax with an income tax. Also I don't want to comply with an income tax, I just want the government out of my life.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitMan View Post
    There is no 3rd option.
    Sure there is.

    Amend the state constitution to no longer say "everybody has a right to a 'free' education" or whatever nonsense like that is in there.

  15. #14

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    Or, do what we did in NH when a prog court did the same thing back in the 90s.

    Ignore the court.

    1993, the New Hampshire Supreme Court interpreted Part II, Article 83 of the New Hampshire Constitution to guarantee students a right to a public education. In 1997, the New Hampshire school funding system was found unconstitutional and the legislature and governor were ordered to define the components of a constitutionally adequate education, cost them out and pay for them with taxes that were equal across the state. Four governors and their legislatures refused to comply with the Court's orders leading the Supreme Court to again find the school funding system unconstitutional in September, 2006, leading Gov. John Lynch to try, unsuccessuflly, to amend the state Constitution.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claremo..._New_Hampshire

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitMan View Post

    Not surprisingly, very few of you know the way our tax system currently works and the education hole WA is currently in.

    As it stands, Washington state has no income tax. That's great...right?

    Critics will point to the fact that it penalizes the poor and middle class to the benefit of the rich; the State makes its revenue from somewhere, and the only places to really collect it are the Sales Tax and Property taxes. Property taxes are insane here which puts a big burden on the middle class and first time home owners, while sales taxes in many cities in WA are among the highest in the nation which disproportionately shifts the tax burden to the poor.
    Challenge the authority of these insane taxes.


    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitMan View Post
    It is mathematically impossible to sustain a society where the revenue collected shrinks in proportion to a growing population and economy
    Says who?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitMan View Post
    And then the State Supreme Court ruled that Washington was violating its own Constitution and not providing the funding to Education that was required per its founding document. So the State has been scrambling to raise the funds it needs for education to not be held in contempt of the law. The education system here is already underfunded in a big way, and it needs about $2 billion to make it right.
    Challenge the authority of SCOTUS.



    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitMan View Post
    There is no 3rd option.
    MORE tax burden is the answer when you've just said the already "insane" tax scheme isn't working?

  17. #16

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    In addition to this being great for the children's future, this would probably also create a lot of jobs
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Northbreather View Post
    Challenge the authority of SCOTUS.
    Sorry, no. Challenging the authority of SCOTUS is itself unconstitutional, ever since they said so in 1816.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  19. #18

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    I kind of agree with Rabbitman here.

    Washington state has some serious problems right now.

    1) The courts have determined that the state has been negligent in funding three things: public schools, foster care and mental health. Case loads for social workers in the foster care system are up 33%, and current wait time in abuse cases is over 90 days. About half of the court-mandated changes in foster care have been met since the 2011 decision. The courts have also decreed that it is unethical to 'chain up' people with mental health issues in emergency rooms or jails while waiting for beds in a mental hospital. The estimated cost to fix this issue is about $100 million. Finally, the straw that broke the camels back is the public school system. There are two things going on here. The first is that in the McCleary decision from the state supreme court has demanded about $2.5 billion extra spending on schools to bring state spending per student up to the national average. Beyond that, an initiative (I-1351) passed last year demands a decrease in class size as well as a bunch of other stuff--and is estimated to cost another $2 to $4 billion dollars. This leaves the state in a hole about $4.5 to $6 billion deep.

    2) Since the great recession began, the state has already cut about 10 billion from their budget. Now, more than 2/3rds of the budget is off limits for cuts, mostly due to either federal or court requirements.



    Based on what is left to be cut, there really aren't a whole lot of options. This chart doesn't show that most of that 'other human services' section is now off limits for cuts because of the mental health and foster care rulings. Any further cuts in this area are likely to result in more lawsuits and court mandates. Cuts in corrections means closing a prison. Higher education is about the only area that could possibly be cut, and even a 100% cut would only bring in $3.4 billion. As far as state employees, most of them have seen their real wages decline about 15% with no cost of living increases in 6 years. In addition, despite a 15% increase in population over the last decade, the number of state workers has remained about the same.

    3) Sales tax isn't an equitable or effective method of supporting government function. Since 1980, the portion of purchases for an average family that are taxed has declined from 60% to just 35%. What this means is that when compared to income of residents, revenue collection is down about 67% since 1995, and the average tax burden for a family has fallen 30%.

    4) Marijuana legalization can't pay for everything. Marijuana legalization has been slower in Washington than Colorado due to having a system that is far more controlled by the state. The first stores didn't open until July 2014 and supply didn't meet demand until Octoberish. Despite this, revenues were about $50 million in 2014. Revenue through 2017 is expected to be about $237 million. This is a big boon for the state, but just isn't enough to pay for everything.

    So, my conclusion is that under the current system, the state's revenue just can't keep up with various court decisions and initiative demands. Washington is in a position where even the harshest cuts would not meet liabilities. Some of you have pointed out that the state could technically ignore their constitution and supreme court. To me the constitution of a state, much like that for the Federal government, is a foundational document that sets the guidelines for what citizens can expect from government and can only be legally changed, not ignored. This is what governing is about -- meeting the promises made to citizens in the most cost effective manner possible. If current revenue isn't enough to meet those promises, even with the most dramatic cuts, you either have to change your promises (or demands in the case of state initiatives) or raise revenue.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by jurgs01 View Post
    Um, cut spending. Are you new here?
    You are so radical jurgs, how dare you suggest that, why do you hate the children?
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  21. #20

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    Well, since the only reasoned argument here is pro-treasurer's plan, I guess we can consider the "Case of the Missing Revenue" closed.

    Unless anyone has anything else to add other than, "Ignore the constitution derp" or "Cut spending derp" when both of those answers are essentially just derp, then we are done here.
    "Freedom, then Pizza!" - Oklahoma State GOP Convention 5/11/2012

  22. #21

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    ...because the system we have in place is working so well...thanks to the prevailing mindset...

    yes, WE are done....sadly.
    Last edited by JK/SEA; 04-24-2015 at 02:31 PM.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitMan View Post

    Not surprisingly, very few of you know the way our tax system currently works and the education hole WA is currently in.
    Hole is easy to get out from: close the public schools. Problem solved.

    As it stands, Washington state has no income tax. That's great...right?
    One of the very few things about WA political reality that is right.


    Well, the portion of taxed goods and services in the market-place has gone from 65% in the late 60s to 35% 2013.
    And, hopefully, to 0% one day soon.

    Tax revenue in WA has shown it can not keep up with the growth of the economy, with it lagging 30% behind the economy over the last 20 years. Again, that is just taxes collected not keeping up; we aren't talking about tax increases. It is mathematically impossible to sustain a society where the revenue collected shrinks in proportion to a growing population and economy.
    Nonsense. Stop spending all that god damned money and guess what: no more revenue shortfalls. If the "state" did what it is supposed to - running the courts being 95% of its proper role - there would be no problems such as those you cite.

    And then the State Supreme Court ruled that Washington was violating its own Constitution and not providing the funding to Education that was required per its founding document. So the State has been scrambling to raise the funds it needs for education to not be held in contempt of the law. The education system here is already underfunded in a big way, and it needs about $2 billion to make it right.
    All operating under the gross fallacy that the state is responsible for providing education. Hogwash.

    So the options are a) raise taxes on the poor and middle class (we already have the most regressive tax system in the country) or b) radically change the tax system like the treasurer proposes, which shifts the burden of the tax system around while simultaneously lowering taxes on small businesses and the poor.

    There is no 3rd option.
    Talk about a failure in creative/analytic thought.

    Rein-in spending is the proper option. But in a politically liberal $#@! hole like WA ("liberal" applying only to the Seattle metro area - the rest of the state is staunchly conservative) that is not going to happen.

    Don't try to pull that "no other option" nonsense on the folks here because it will never work and you stand a good chance of being publicly flayed by those less kind than myself.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Pray for reset.


  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    All operating under the gross fallacy that the state is responsible for providing education. Hogwash.
    Actually, under the Washington State Constitution, Article IX, providing education for all children is the main responsibility of the state.

    "It is the paramount duty of the state to make ample provision for the education of all children residing within its borders..."

    I totally agree the Federal government should stay out of education, but for most states education is a central part of their constitutions.

    So, how is it a fallacy that the state has this responsibility when it is clearly stated in the state constitution?

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitMan View Post
    Well, since the only reasoned argument here is pro-treasurer's plan, I guess we can consider the "Case of the Missing Revenue" closed.

    Unless anyone has anything else to add other than, "Ignore the constitution derp" or "Cut spending derp" when both of those answers are essentially just derp, then we are done here.
    Pretty much. The governor came out against it. Obviously, the people of WA are also against it.
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith and stuff View Post
    Pretty much. The governor came out against it. Obviously, the people of WA are also against it.
    The governor is unfortunately an idiot. So there is that. Lol

    Nothing else substantial to add, just wanted to throw that in.
    "Freedom, then Pizza!" - Oklahoma State GOP Convention 5/11/2012






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