No State vs Minarchism

[chrono187]

Thoughts?

[chrono187]

http://youtu.be/Cpg5X1b3XCs

[chrono187]

For some reason it won't let me embed this video.

[HVACTech]

this is a subject I have been thinking about doing a post on.
but I did not see anything in the video about the subject matter.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I think you have to start with definitions of state, govern, government, policy, etc.

Every collection of people has some form of governance. Policies might be unwritten or organization less formal, but it still exists at some level. The administrator, as one example, could be a judge or a community elder. The idea of this not existing naturally is pushed by those who refuse to distinguish between law and order. All of the US code regarding law, for example, was written long ago. Most, if not all, of the code written today concerns order (smoking bans, occupational licensing, etc.).

This idea of chaos ensuing without very formalized mechanisms is false. It does however, somewhat depend on a community's bureaucratic structure. I have overseas relatives in a very rural area. Formalized policing is very inconsistent and often absent. Sometimes it's quasi military or rogue military. Some situations can be a real life Hatfields & McCoys. The justice you decline to take for aggrieved parties can be the result of not wanting that party to one-up you at a later date. That mechanism is very evident in the absence of any very formalized policing. That mechanism can be a very powerful deterrent, especially when a situation spreads beyond directly aggrieved parties.

Anarchy simply does not exist under natural conditions on earth. It gets a negative rap as being about lawlessness. Even the most rudimentary of societies will have basic mores or conventions that are recognized. These rules are outlined, are interpreted, and are enforced at some level. There is a natural order of things, even if it's crudely elementary in practice or application.

The bottom line for me then, is discussing degrees. The US has become a country of, often, irrational order, well beyond basic laws that most recognize.

[HVACTech]

I think you have to start with definitions of state, govern, government, policy, etc.

Every collection of people has some form of governance. Policies might be unwritten or organization less formal, but it still exists at some level. The administrator, as one example, could be a judge or a community elder. The idea of this not existing naturally is pushed by those who refuse to distinguish between law and order. All of the US code regarding law, for example, was written long ago. Most, if not all, of the code written today concerns order (smoking bans, occupational licensing, etc.).

This idea of chaos ensuing without very formalized mechanisms is false. It does however, somewhat depend on a community's bureaucratic structure. I have overseas relatives in a very rural area. Formalized policing is very inconsistent and often absent. Sometimes it's quasi military or rogue military. Some situations can be a real life Hatfields & McCoys. The justice you decline to take for aggrieved parties can be the result of not wanting that party to one-up you at a later date. That mechanism is very evident in the absence of any very formalized policing. That mechanism can be a very powerful deterrent, especially when a situation spreads beyond directly aggrieved parties.

Anarchy simply does not exist under natural conditions on earth. It gets a negative rap as being about lawlessness. Even the most rudimentary of societies will have basic mores or conventions that are recognized. There is a natural order of things, even if it's crudely elementary in practice or application.

The bottom line for me then, is discussing degrees. The US has become a country of order, well beyond basic laws that most recognize.

I will make no effort to defend what we have today, past the 1st ten amendments.
what we have today bears no resemblance to what we were supposed to have. I would propose that what the founders gave us. (our Heritage)
could be described as practical Anarchy. or Min-Archy.

this seems clear to me, but my efforts thus far are seen as attacks or rejection, (or whatever)
by Anarchists on this site. this puzzles me greatly.

[heavenlyboy34]

I think you have to start with definitions of state, govern, government, policy, etc.

Every collection of people has some form of governance. Policies might be unwritten or organization less formal, but it still exists at some level. The administrator, as one example, could be a judge or a community elder. The idea of this not existing naturally is pushed by those who refuse to distinguish between law and order. All of the US code regarding law, for example, was written long ago. Most, if not all, of the code written today concerns order (smoking bans, occupational licensing, etc.).

This idea of chaos ensuing without very formalized mechanisms is false. It does however, somewhat depend on a community's bureaucratic structure. I have overseas relatives in a very rural area. Formalized policing is very inconsistent and often absent. Sometimes it's quasi military or rogue military. Some situations can be a real life Hatfields & McCoys. The justice you decline to take for aggrieved parties can be the result of not wanting that party to one-up you at a later date. That mechanism is very evident in the absence of any very formalized policing. That mechanism can be a very powerful deterrent, especially when a situation spreads beyond directly aggrieved parties.

Anarchy simply does not exist under natural conditions on earth. It gets a negative rap as being about lawlessness. Even the most rudimentary of societies will have basic mores or conventions that are recognized. These rules are outlined, are interpreted, and are enforced at some level. There is a natural order of things, even if it's crudely elementary in practice or application.

The bottom line for me then, is discussing degrees. The US has become a country of, often, irrational order, well beyond basic laws that most recognize.

This is the only nit I would pick with you. Anarchy as a political order/paradigm is distinct from the understanding of "anarchy" resulting from semantic shift in the 19th century. In political anarchism(the variety practiced by RPF anarchists) is all about rational law and order. RPF/LRC/Mises U anarchists "get it" and are far more rational and thoughtful than the minarchists. (disclaimer: I don't like to affiliate myself with any label-I just happen to agree with the various radical anti-State philosophers more than the rest)

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I don't really follow this philosophical stuff on a deep level. I know what I know and apply it to what I see. Many people here obviously know this stuff better than I. I think its good to discuss these things, but I also think it makes sense to discuss these things in an applied way. Some of these ideas will never get past academic debate. It's still good to discuss them, but there is still only 24 hours in a day. Where do you put your energy?

Anyway, I'll listen if someone compares the concepts with real life application.

[heavenlyboy34]

I don't really follow this philosophical stuff on a deep level. I know what I know and apply it to what I see. Many people here obviously know this stuff better than I. I think its good to discuss these things, but I also think it makes sense to discuss these things in an applied way. Some of these ideas will never get past academic debate. It's still good to discuss them, but there is still only 24 hours in a day. Where do you put your energy?

Anyway, I'll listen if someone compares the concepts with real life application.

This is quite a can of worms! Hope you're prepared to do a lot of reading/listening. For the books/literature people will link you to in coming days, I suggest you use the speed reading software I posted a few days ago.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

...I suggest you use the speed reading software I posted a few days ago.

Speed reading? Oh, hell no. I got a book for Christmas and am on page 60. I am purposely slowing down with life activity. This technology is out of control!

[Ronin Truth]

This is quite a can of worms! Hope you're prepared to do a lot of reading/listening. For the books/literature people will link you to in coming days, I suggest you use the speed reading software I posted a few days ago.

Well that may explain a lot? Do you happen to have any speed reading comprehension software available to you?

[HVACTech]

I don't really follow this philosophical stuff on a deep level. I know what I know and apply it to what I see. Many people here obviously know this stuff better than I. I think its good to discuss these things, but I also think it makes sense to discuss these things in an applied way. Some of these ideas will never get past academic debate. It's still good to discuss them, but there is still only 24 hours in a day. Where do you put your energy?

Anyway, I'll listen if someone compares the concepts with real life application.

Anyway, I'll listen if someone compares the concepts with real life application.

I will take a shot at it..
A "system of checks and balances" checks and balances on what?
I submit that this was on the accumulation or centralization of power. fact is, as originally conceived in our Rule of Law. (colloquially known as the Constitution)
there is NOTHING in it that applies to the people. it was an agreement between the states and the fedgov. and it applies solely to them, not us!
therefore, it was designed intentionally to limit both of them. the 9th and 10th amendments seem to make this very clear to me.

this is why the wording is so vague and so many things are left out. it was not for them to decide anyway!
this system would offer protection and permit power to be exercised in a more local manner.

if these views expressed are correct. then it seems obvious to me that the founders saw the statists as the problem.
and since I have now climbed out on a limb... in for a penny, in for a pound!

a MinArchist is someone who is willing to fight the $#@!ing statists, and sees them as the enemy.
and An Anarchist is someone who prefers pacifism and endless pontification.

(runs and ducks for cover...incoming!!!)

[HVACTech]

(((((((sure is quiet in here.)))))))

[euphemia]

I haven't really explored the ins and outs of it, either, but it seems to me that anarchy does not exist in a vacuum. It only exists where there is law. I think there has to be a form of law when groups of people live close together.

I think that people can self govern, and should generally self govern. Minimal government is best.

[Feeding the Abscess]

I haven't really explored the ins and outs of it, either, but it seems to me that anarchy does not exist in a vacuum. It only exists where there is law. I think there has to be a form of law when groups of people live close together.

I think that people can self govern, and should generally self govern. Minimal government is best.

All forms of anarchy that are explored and discussed on RPF (and, typically, in the liberty movement in general) are those that advocate law - albeit private law.

[HVACTech]

I haven't really explored the ins and outs of it, either, but it seems to me that anarchy does not exist in a vacuum. It only exists where there is law. I think there has to be a form of law when groups of people live close together.

I think that people can self govern, and should generally self govern. Minimal government is best.

does this mean that you will forgive me for cussing Love?
for now, I accept your judgement.





it might get worse IF HB grows a pair..

[HVACTech]

All forms of anarchy that are explored and discussed on RPF (and, typically, in the liberty movement in general) are those that advocate law - albeit private law.

not bad, still waiting for HB to take his shot at my query.
I wrote it for intelligent discussion of our common heritage.
peace bro.

[euphemia]

Private law? According to whom?

Again, my opinion, but liberty comes with responsibility. We help each other out so the government doesn't get involved. We talk to each other. "tobismom, your dog is pooping in my yard again. Can we go see if we can find the hole in the fence? I have a bit of extra here and we can fix the hole."

"Liberty person, I notice your yard is getting a bit overgrown? Is there something we can do to help?"

"Your mom is sick again? Wow. Would your little boy like to come over to play in the sprinkler tomorrow so you can take your mom to the doctor?"

If you notice, the bigger government gets, the more alienated citizens are from each other. Limited government helps people reach out to each other.

[HVACTech]

Private law? According to whom?

Again, my opinion, but liberty comes with responsibility. We help each other out so the government doesn't get involved. We talk to each other. "tobismom, your dog is pooping in my yard again. Can we go see if we can find the hole in the fence? I have a bit of extra here and we can fix the hole."

"Liberty person, I notice your yard is getting a bit overgrown? Is there something we can do to help?"

"Your mom is sick again? Wow. Would your little boy like to come over to play in the sprinkler tomorrow so you can take your mom to the doctor?"

If you notice, the bigger government gets, the more alienated citizens are from each other. Limited government helps people reach out to each other.

hey! wait a minute Love!
I was trying to pick a fight with the pure, hard core Anarchists first!

[euphemia]

I know. But I don't learn much from the fighting.

If your cat is up a tree, I would lend you our ladder and my husband would spot for you.

[heavenlyboy34]

Well that may explain a lot? Do you happen to have any speed reading comprehension software available to you?

Supposedly, speed reading is designed for comprehension. But for you and your issues, they may have to give it more umph. Google around and ask some manufacturers about it. Also ask if they can help with your punctuation issues.

[heavenlyboy34]

Private law? According to whom?

Again, my opinion, but liberty comes with responsibility. We help each other out so the government doesn't get involved. We talk to each other. "tobismom, your dog is pooping in my yard again. Can we go see if we can find the hole in the fence? I have a bit of extra here and we can fix the hole."

"Liberty person, I notice your yard is getting a bit overgrown? Is there something we can do to help?"

"Your mom is sick again? Wow. Would your little boy like to come over to play in the sprinkler tomorrow so you can take your mom to the doctor?"

If you notice, the bigger government gets, the more alienated citizens are from each other. Limited government helps people reach out to each other.

LMAO!! Thanks for the lolz. ~hugs~

[heavenlyboy34]

Private law? According to whom?

Again, my opinion, but liberty comes with responsibility. We help each other out so the government doesn't get involved. We talk to each other. "tobismom, your dog is pooping in my yard again. Can we go see if we can find the hole in the fence? I have a bit of extra here and we can fix the hole."

"Liberty person, I notice your yard is getting a bit overgrown? Is there something we can do to help?"

"Your mom is sick again? Wow. Would your little boy like to come over to play in the sprinkler tomorrow so you can take your mom to the doctor?"

If you notice, the bigger government gets, the more alienated citizens are from each other. Limited government helps people reach out to each other.

O rlly? Then why do you ask the government to do your dirty work for you? (i.e. extorting money for your favorite public works and projects, institutions, etc)

[HVACTech]

O rlly? Then why do you ask the government to do your dirty work for you? (i.e. extorting money for your favorite public works and projects, institutions, etc)

why are you picking on the girls?

heavenlyboy?

[Feeding the Abscess]

Private law? According to whom?

Again, my opinion, but liberty comes with responsibility. We help each other out so the government doesn't get involved. We talk to each other. "tobismom, your dog is pooping in my yard again. Can we go see if we can find the hole in the fence? I have a bit of extra here and we can fix the hole."

"Liberty person, I notice your yard is getting a bit overgrown? Is there something we can do to help?"

"Your mom is sick again? Wow. Would your little boy like to come over to play in the sprinkler tomorrow so you can take your mom to the doctor?"

If you notice, the bigger government gets, the more alienated citizens are from each other. Limited government helps people reach out to each other.

I'm genuinely confused. I don't understand how any of this is an argument against ending the state. Many anarchists use these exact arguments for solving social problems as opposed to turning to the state for the cure to all ills.

Private law would be law not decided by a State. Such arrangements currently exist in tort, arbitration, and other areas of regular life. As with those aspects of law, private groups could determine and carry out law; and since these groups wouldn't have a monopoly on the use of force or the backing of a 'social contract,' they'd be more apt to succumb to public pressure and not overstep their bounds.

[erowe1]

No state.

[HVACTech]

No state.

brilliant response.

[euphemia]

O rlly? Then why do you ask the government to do your dirty work for you? (i.e. extorting money for your favorite public works and projects, institutions, etc)

I don't really ask the government to do anything. I would like them to do a lot less than they do. Take the accusations somewhere else.

[euphemia]

I'm genuinely confused. I don't understand how any of this is an argument against ending the state. Many anarchists use these exact arguments for solving social problems as opposed to turning to the state for the cure to all ills.

Private law would be law not decided by a State. Such arrangements currently exist in tort, arbitration, and other areas of regular life. As with those aspects of law, private groups could determine and carry out law; and since these groups wouldn't have a monopoly on the use of force or the backing of a 'social contract,' they'd be more apt to succumb to public pressure and not overstep their bounds.

But who decides? In the US, we have a Constitution that calls for limited government. I'm not going to arbitrarily submit decisions about my property and family to someone who is not authorized by the Constitution to have that authority. I don't trust people in this city well enough to let them decide anything for me.

[erowe1]

But who decides? In the US, we have a Constitution that calls for limited government. I'm not going to arbitrarily submit decisions about my property and family to someone who is not authorized by the Constitution to have that authority. I don't trust people in this city well enough to let them decide anything for me.

Who gave the Constitution that authority?