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Thread: Life as a Chemical Reaction and how it relates to Global Warming

  1. #1

    Life as a Chemical Reaction and how it relates to Global Warming

    Carbon Dioxide is a gas which is interwoven into the natural cycle of life on Earth. We are all carbon based life forms. The term "organic" refers to any chemical compound with carbon in it. It is what plants inhale, it is what we exhale. Stripping away all of our philosophy about the soul and life after death, and just looking at things in a dry scientific sense, life is a chemical reaction, and CO2 is one of the key ingredients. So to learn a little bit more about this process, let's do a chemical reaction in the lab and draw parallels.

    Imagine you put on your lab coat and stand in a laboratory with a beaker, a collection of chemicals, and a stirring rod to mix them with (don't forget your safety goggles!). You take two chemicals, stir them together, and a precipitate forms on the bottom of the beaker. Let's suppose you chose this particular precipitation reaction to observe:

    [1] 2NaOH(aq) + MgCl2(aq) → 2NaCl(aq) + Mg(OH)2(s)

    You mix the chemicals together in solution, and a precipitate forms: Mg(OH)2. However, when you examine your solution, you will find that there are still small amounts of 2NaOH(aq) and MgCl2(aq) floating around in liquid form. What is going on? Well it's important to realize that chemical reactions are not one way events. That arrow in equation [1] should really point both ways. Even as the chemicals are condensing into a solid, small amounts of the precipitate are turning back into their original reactants. The proportion of chemicals that remain in liquid form, to those that condense into a solid is roughly proportional to the speed of the "forward reaction" compared to the speed of the "reverse reaction" (It also depends on things such as the surface area of the precipitate). In this case, as in most cases, the speed of the forward reaction is much much greater than that of the reverse, leaving you with but a trace amount of your original reactants left suspended in your solution.

    Starting again, you pour the two chemicals into your solution, but this time don't mix them in the right proportion. Instead of mixing NaOH(aq) and MgCl2(aq) in a ratio of 2:1, you mix them in a ratio of 1:1. Now at the end of your reaction you test and find only a trace amount of NaOH, but lots and lots of MgCl2. This is because the Sodium Hydroxide is "pinching off" the reaction. Meaning that the reaction completes long before all of the Magnesium Chloride condenses into precipitate.

    -------------------------------------

    Now take your beaker and make it larger. Expand it larger and larger, until it stretches around in a monumental sphere. The bottom of your beaker is the surface of planet, and your "solution" is the atmosphere. Your reactants are all of the molecules in the air. The wind mixes these chemicals together and a precipitate forms. The precipitate is greenish colored, and there are all sorts of little things moving around amongst it. This is the Life Reaction. It is a little more complicated than our previous experiment, but we can figure it out if we use reaction [1] as an example. In this case, the "forward reaction" that involves CO2 is controlled mainly by photosynthesis:

    [2] CO2(g) + H2O(aq) + photons → {Plant Matter}(s) + O2(g)

    Note: We only care about how this reaction relates to CO2. Since after the Carbon is absorbed, a bunch of chemical reactions follow that transform the specific compound which is produced in photosynthesis into a variety of different forms. Thus I have used "Plant Matter" to simplify.

    Remember, the structure of a tree is mostly made out of Carbon, which was absorbed through it's leaves. That's right, trees are mostly air. So what we have is Carbon being sucked out of the air, combining with water, and precipitating as plant matter with an Oxygen byproduct. Just like before, the amount of Carbon in the air is controlled by the proportion of the rate of the forward reaction, to that of the reverse reaction. The reverse reaction is controlled by animals, who gather energy from plant matter and burn it up in mitochondria, exhaling a CO2 byproduct.

    [3] {Plant Matter}(s) + O2(g) + H2O → {Animal Matter}(s) + CO2(g)

    Note: There is something missing here. The fact that animals process certain minerals which plants need to grow, and are used as fertilizer. We are focusing in on CO2 here, so this is left aside.

    So you see, animals get their Carbon from plants. They then breath in Oxygen (O2), slap a Carbon atom on it (CO2) and expel it (losing some mass in the process). Because the amount of Animal Matter is constrained by the amount of Plant Matter, for CO2 the reverse reaction will always be much slower than the forward reaction. Like our first example, this leaves a trace amount of CO2 (our reactant) in the air, with the rest of the Carbon being held as Biomass (our precipitate).

    -------------------------------------

    Now with any chemical reaction in the natural world, it is very likely that the reactants will not be perfectly balanced. Thus there will almost always be a single chemical which is pinching off the reaction, leaving one trace chemical, and one or more excess chemicals.

    Turning our eyes to reaction [3], we see that the amount of Animal Matter is constrained by the amount of Oxygen, and the amount of edible Plant Matter. Considering what we know about nature, it is evident that the amount of edible plants is the thing pinching off this reaction (animals are far more likely to starve to death than to asphyxiate). In many regions it is constrained by the amount of water, but in general it is safe to say that globally the struggle is over food (keep in mind that the majority of Carbon is processed by organisms living in the ocean).

    Next, we take a look at reaction [2]. What is the scarce chemical pinching off the reaction? In the deep ocean, and in the rainforest, it's photons. In the desert regions of the planet, it's clearly water. However, in general, for the majority of photosynthetic life it's neither of those things. Let's take a look at the Earths atmospheric composition.



    CO2 barely registers on the scale, making up less than .04% of our atmosphere! Such a small, trace amount of CO2 strongly suggests that Carbon Dioxide is the limiting ingredient in reaction [2]. And since we know that the amount of Animal Matter is constrained by the amount of Plant Matter, we can extrapolate that the amount of total Biomass in the environment is being limited by the amount of CO2. Carbon Dioxide is pinching off the Life Reaction!

    ------------------------------------

    Let's turn our eyes back to reaction [1] and take the case where we had added the chemicals in a proportion of 1:1, such that NaOH was pinching off the reaction. What would happen if we were to add a bit more NaOH into the mix? Quite simply, more precipitate would form. The amount of MgCl in solution would decrease in proportion to how much NaOH was added. Also, there would be a slightly greater amount of NaOH in solution, because there is now more precipitate. Meaning that the reverse reaction goes slightly faster. However, it would still be an infinitesimal trace amount, barely able to even be detected in solution.

    Translate this knowledge to the Life Reaction. Adding more CO2 to the environment precipitates more Biomass. However, CO2 still remains in the atmosphere in only a trace amount. What does this mean for the environment? It means plants grow faster, and flourish more leaves and seedlings. Grass grows taller, forests grow more densely packed. Also, the environment is able to support a more dense animal population, with more biodiversity. More herbivores means more carnivores, and stronger, larger, healthier apex predators.

    There is evidence for this. Anyone who runs a greenhouse will tell you that if you want your plants to grow fast, you pump the room full of extra CO2. This effect is known to be especially profound on plants that grow in desert regions. It is possible that a higher availability of Carbon in the atmosphere could shrink desert regions worldwide (forested areas can precipitate rainfall, possibly solving the issue of the scarcity of water). It helps that Carbon Dioxide is a heavy gas with a high specific gravity, meaning that it tends to hang close to the surface of the Earth, enriching plant life.

    -----------------------

    My Personal Conclusions

    The take away is, all of this casts strong doubt over whether or not CO2 emissions are a net negative for humans, or nature itself. Remember, oil is compressed plant matter. Those plants originally got that Carbon from the air. Taking a different point of view, you might assert that humans are simply liberating trapped Carbon back into the environment where it can once again be used as biomass, rather than sitting unproductively underground.

    Everything has costs and benefits, and you need to weigh them both before deciding whether something is a good thing, or a bad thing. All of the supposed costs of Carbon emissions (the ocean swallowing up cities...etc) seem rather far fetched. There just isn't a lot of evidence to support a catastrophic outcome; peer reviewed science is still fairly timid on the doomsday prophecies we all heard in school. Whereas the benefits to global food production and biodiversity are based in logic, and hard science on the Carbon Cycle.




    This is what makes sense to me, and is the logical conclusion I've arrived at based on the evidence I have before me. If you'd like to dispute me, please keep your criticisms confined to the arguments I have made above.
    Last edited by DevilsAdvocate; 09-30-2015 at 10:30 AM.



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  3. #2
    Excellent, did you write that?
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  4. #3
    thank you!
    some of what you wrote, I was aware of but only on a basic level.
    I will need to read it again this evening and perhaps seek clarifications. one thing that does stand out for me.

    Remember, oil is compressed plant matter.
    I have serious doubts about the Fossil fuel theory...
    again, that you for taking the time to spread enlightenment!
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  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Excellent, did you write that?
    Yeah, I've had this thesis dancing around in my head for a while now. I decided to do some research and get it all written down. This is all commonly available information, just presented in a way that makes sense to me. I plan to make a note of any mistakes I've made.

    I see a minor thing already:

    The number of animals is not strictly constrained by the number of plants. If there were no predators, this would be true. The animals would reproduce until they overpopulated and started dying of starvation. In this case the amount of Animal Matter in the ecosystem would be the maximum level the vegetation could support. However in reality, predators keep this from happening, keeping the animal population somewhat below the theoretical maximum.

    This is ok however, because it simply means that we are somewhat below the constraint, rather than right on it. All the subsequent points I made based on this are still valid.

    -----

    Also, something I failed to mention:

    Much of the Carbon Cycle occurs in the ocean, not on land. The first 10 meters below the surface is teeming with phytoplankton that are thought to be responsible for the majority of Earths Oxygen. Scientists aren't sure exactly how much of the world's photosynthesis takes place under the waves, but a good guess would be 50%-70%. In the ocean, Carbon Dioxide levels are slightly higher (around 25% higher), but it is still very much a "trace" chemical, lending further support to my thesis that it is the limiting ingredient that is pinching off the reaction, even in the ocean. If more carbon entered the ecosystem, the density and number of phytoplankton would increase.

    It is established by science that extra CO2 in the atmosphere is in great part absorbed by the ocean. The ocean "breathes".
    Last edited by DevilsAdvocate; 04-19-2015 at 11:35 PM.

  6. #5
    Can we quote your work?
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  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Can we quote your work?
    Sure, go right ahead!

  8. #7
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  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
    This is what makes sense to me, and is the logical conclusion I've arrived at based on the evidence I have before me. If you'd like to dispute me, please keep your criticisms confined to the arguments I have made above.
    It simply isn't a reasonable request to limit the terms of controversy to the model of which you've introduced, DevilsAdvocate. Which is unfortunate. There is much to the phenomenon.

    I'm assuming that this is the scale in which you've derived a conclusion. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.



    If so, then, please understand that what you have before you is simply a very small aspect of the larger picture. Moving on to elements of the atmosphere such as the infrared and other elements not seen. The way that our sun functions in synergy with our atmosphere. And our thin atmosphere, really, is comparable to a very thin coating of clear coat on model globes that we see in classrooms and whatnot.

    When I initially browsed over your thread, I immediately assumed it to be just another page full of political mubo jumbo for the purpose of conforming to the political paradigm but after reading it again, it is clear that your conclusion is a product of scientific curiousity. If it is something that you'd like to discuss out of bounds of the terms of controversy that you've offered here, then, I'd certainly be interested in having that discussion. It's interesting. And there is much to it. I'm not much on the politics of it, though. I usually bail on such discussion once it gets political in the historical paradigmal way that it does. Of course, there are political aspects to the phenomenon. We continue to see second and third world countries forced into debt by the highest polluting nations. These second and third world nations are losing much of their forestation due to simply being poor and relying upon wood for the most remedial of things to survive. As well, since the Industrial Revolution we have remained very shortsighted. On top of that our politicians aren't acountable for any kind of long term vision with regard to the issue. They care about the 4 or 6 years that they reside in office and any action certainly reflects that short term vision as well.

    There is much to be said, though, with regard to the science of it all. It just depends if we want to have that discussion in a reasonable and thorough, relevant way. We can't limit the terms of controversy to our own hypothesis. Well....I suppose that we could do that. But we'd do better by encouraging discussion that invites all known factors and outliers. And we certainly shouldn't become overly attached to terms of controversy and any conclusions that are derived from those terms of controversy just because they are ours. We have to acknowledge contradicting factors as opposed to reaching conclusions that are just a product of our own observational selection (in this case life itself). It's just how science functions.

    I don't know. It's an intertesting discussion to be had in the general public if absent from any political paradigm. I'm not looking to dispute you because what you have shared here is fairly accurate given the scale that you've allotted for yourself in terms of a path to a conclusive view of the phenomenon. I'd likely be more interested to add to it, I suppose. I tend to look at the phenomenon from a cosmic perspective, though. As well, CO2 emissions, really, are but one of many, many things that come into question with regard to investigationg the impact of polluting Earth's atmosphere. And, so, it is simply not practical to derive the terms of controversy exclusively upon that hypothesis alone.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 04-20-2015 at 05:10 AM.



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  11. #9
    Interesting. Thanks.

    There also appear to be very large-scale buffering and sequestering functions acting globally. It is clear that the simplistic models used by climate "scientists" are a joke, not to mention the fact that they are trying to model a chaotic system that is by definition hyper-dependent on initial conditions and therefore not susceptible to prediction.
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  12. #10
    Natural Citizen:

    You bring up the Nitrogen cycle. It is true that plants need elements such as nitrogen from the ground in order to grow. However, I chose not to focus on it and instead focus the discussion on Carbon. Nitrogen is 78% of the atmosphere, it would be hard to argue that it is a trace chemical in limited availability. But besides Nitrogen, there are a slew of other chemicals different life forms use, which in limited availability will constrain certain populations. However, evolution works for us here. If there is a deficiency in certain chemicals, life adapts to make more efficient use of that chemical. My goal was to find the chemical acting as a global constraint, and the very low percentage of free Carbon in the environment certainly makes a strong case.

    You also bring up deforestation, and yes, this could be a problem to local environments. But I'm not of the opinion that land scarcity is the limiting factor to life globally. We aren't wall to wall with trees here, a very significant portion of the planet is sparse and spare with life. And in any square mile of land, (except perhaps the rainforest), plants and animals can almost always be more densely populated. No matter what the environment, evolution will design organisms to live there, as long as it has enough biological material to work with.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    It simply isn't a reasonable request to limit the terms of controversy to the model of which you've introduced,
    fail. I was going to discuss thermodynamics.
    I will wait until YOU are finished.

    please continue to enlighten us as to how the nitrogen cycle can be compared to the carbon cycle.
    within the format of global warming....

    that is NOT why you are here is it?
    you are either here to obfuscate. or...
    you are an IT 10 T.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

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  14. #12
    This needs a website like max's tomato bubble website, or a really slick youtube vid...

    I've been saying forever that plants love CO2..
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  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    This needs a website like max's tomato bubble website, or a really slick youtube vid...

    I've been saying forever that plants love CO2..
    plants need co2, they also need sunshine, water and warmth.

    set the flamingo free!

    Last edited by HVACTech; 04-23-2015 at 08:32 PM.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    This needs a website like max's tomato bubble website, or a really slick youtube vid...

    I've been saying forever that plants love CO2..
    I actually think this is a really good idea. Today I took this argument over to a comments section full of Global Warming devotees (to test it out against criticism), and their counter arguments were really weak. It felt like I hit a really squishy spot in their logic, and they were scrambling around helplessly trying to plug the gap.

    What I consider to be their best counter argument is: the climate is changing much more rapidly than before, and we're in for a mass extinction. They bring up past mass extinctions, and say that higher carbon levels flipped a switch in the cycles of the ocean that radically changed the environment, killing most life on the planet. Now, this doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because from what I can tell the Earth is largely homeostatic. Also, browsing the web, there just doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence to back this up.

    (Oh and apparently most oil is not from plants, but from algae and zooplankton. Not technically in the "Plant" kingdom. Still biological, and supportive of my argument. But they raised hell with me for that)


    If a video were made, I don't think it should focus on whether or not global warming will be a catastrophe. That's not really the focus of my argument either. I think it would be best to just present the information here and raise the question that maybe higher Carbon levels could help out our biosphere. Definitely keep it rational and apolitical.

    I don't have the knowledge or resources to personally do computer graphics. I'm more of a white board and marker kind of guy. Who knows, maybe. If you have any contacts that have any experience making videos, let me know.
    Last edited by DevilsAdvocate; 04-27-2015 at 04:40 AM.



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